Okay, I see lots of people "Plan A-ing" here, and more than one looks like he/she is just being jerked around and taken for a ride by the betrayer. When and where does the BIG Plan A (accountability) and RESPONSIBILITY come into play, and how often does Plan A work (that is, end the affair and restore the marriage) vs. fail (result in divorce or an endless perpetuation of the agony while the betrayer "decides")? Maybe I should ask on the Plan A/B board?? We newbies thank you.<P>[This message has been edited by quandry (edited February 02, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by quandry (edited February 02, 2000).]

Hi, Quandry! Don't know if I'm qualified to answer your question or not, but I'm just about the biggest Plan A fan around here, always have been. <P>I guess it sorta depends on your interpretation of Plan A. I know how I, and a few of the other older members of this board, look at it, and maybe that's why I don't see it as "being jerked around".<P>You'll read a million times on the board that Plan B is for YOU, not for your spouse and NOT a way to make them come home, even though that sometimes happens after a successful Plan A. Well, I sorta figured out that, for me anyway, Plan A was for ME<BR>as well - after the very beginning, I stopped seeing it as a means to "win him back."<P>During my Plan A, I did show my H that I loved him (when I had the opportunity, which wasn't often!) and I pretty much didn't lovebust (except for one very VERY bad weekend!). My Plan A was mostly through letters, since we had little contact with each other. And they weren't mushy, gushy, type letters. I NEVER discussed us and our future. I NEVER discussed OW (who he was living with BTW). Just updated him with news of home, light, breezy, funny, sometimes stuck in a funny "rememberance" and ended with "I love you". But that was.....probably maybe 10% of my Plan A!!!! <P>The bulk of it? Working on me. Being honest with myself about the kind of person I was (now you have to consider that my H couldn't come up with a single complaint about me as a wife!). Reaching deep inside myself and looking closely at what improvements I could make. And by doing that, I gained strength, confidence and peace. Whether or not he EVER decided to come home, and, of course, I hoped he would, I was better. I liked me better. <P>I moved beyond the pain (MOST of the time), never really felt the anger and the bitterness. And the strangest thing happened. My love for him changed as well. Became more real, deeper, based on who he was as a person (not the alien I had at the moment!), rather than on who he was as my husband. Plan A made me feel real. And good. And strong. And I liked it.<P>So, I'm not a success yet. But the man who told me we didn't have a chance, who wanted a divorce as soon as possible, who refused to even talk to me most of the time, started telling people how much he LIKED me. How I was myself, but MORE somehow. And, just recently, said "If you'll have me, I'd like to come home."<P>We talked and talked. I asked no questions - none. And I understood. Because of Plan A, I've understood his pain for some time now. And why what happened happened - as much as anyone can, I think. Probably more than he does. I didn't have to ask for responsibility - he took it. And I took MINE, because, as far as I'm concerned, there were a few of the vows we spoke that I broke as well. And one day during these last few months, I realized that the one HE broke was given no more importance in our wedding than the others. I didn't want details. He gave what he needed to give. That's cool. We talked about what was real and important. And it was nice. And comfortable. And just about as perfect as that kind of discussion can be. Hours and hours.<P>So, now, I get at least a couple of phone calls a day, with as many "I love you's". Haven't heard that since last June. And it's early yet for us. We have times and other things to work out. And some decisions to make. But we've BOTH learned our lessons - lots of them. And mine are as important as his. I think we'll be just fine.<P>I think that it might be because I never tried to use guilt, never tried to "make him think", never tried to push him into taking the resposibility for his actions that he found it so easy to do it for himself. Maybe not. But it feels that way. People tend to dig in their feet when they feel they're being pushed. Never trashed PT. Now he does. And, believe it or not, I don't even agree with him. Just listen to him.<P>So, as far as I'm concerned, the real Plan A, as I saw it, doesn't make you a doormat, it makes you strong. It doesn't force their responsibility or absolve them of it, but allows them the time and freedom to find it on their own. And gives us (the betrayed) the opportunity to grow, so that, with or without our spouses, we've gained something very important from the experience.<P>Oh, well, that's my take anyway. Yes, it's hard - especially at first, not so bad MOST of the time later on. But being jerked around, not always, although I have seen it happen around here. Worthwhile? Without a doubt, imho.<P>Wish you tons of luck.<P>Lori

Thanks, Lori, for the very throrough and helpful explanation; I do see what you mean and how it's the best plan when the affair is OVER... However, I do still have a problem w/ the idea of people sleeping w/ a spouse (meeting sexual needs) who's actively cheating; not only could I just NOT, but the whole STD angle is soooo scary. Anyway, interesting; thank you!

quandry,<P>Listen to these incredible words of wisdom...<P>Well written... well thought out!<P>Lori... excellent! <P>I'm putting this post/thread into the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000013.html" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A>!<P><B>quandry</B>...<BR>Protection of your health... your families health... your families finances... or anything that may not be recoverable... can never be excluded from decisions to provide/meet <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>. If sex, financial support, or anything <B>threatens</B> the stablitlity/health of family... it is not a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A>... the hard part is understanding the degree of the <B>threat</B> and weighing against the benefit gained in depositing love units!!!<P>Is the concern over STDs real...<BR>...for most... it probably should be...<BR>...for others... maybe not... it really depends on the individual situation.<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited February 02, 2000).]

LostVa<P><BR>That truely deserves to be on the "best of" MB thread.<P>I am printing that out as we speak.<p>[This message has been edited by Jersey Joe (edited February 02, 2000).]

Lori says she "never really felt the anger and bitterness"; It's wonderful and says much for her, but I think very few of the posters here can relate to that. I know if I ever found out my fears were based in reality, I would have a VERY difficult time getting past the rage and with trust, and I'd say those are major stumbling blocks in implementing Plan A. Also, am I understanding that issues are to be handled in a "non-love-busting" way, but that the betrayed spouse is nonetheless ENTITLED to decent treatment during this time?? Very interesting concept and discussion.

Me, again! Uh, maybe I should have mentioned that he was LIVING w/ PT all that time??? Affair was NOT over. But there was no sex - he, um, had that covered, I figure!!! I didn't worry so much about meeting his EN - hard to when you don't see them much. Just loving and letting him find his way, and NOT lovebusting on the inevitable bad days. <P>As far as feeling angry and bitter, sure I had my moments in the beginning, but they didn't last long. Once I owned MY part of the responsibility for the condition our marriage was in that allowed this affair to happen (No, not an excuse, but, face it, if we were perfect, it wouldn't have happened.), I couldn't feel angry. And I used this board. I met betrayers, wonderful friends now, and heard THEIR pain and suffering. I wasn't angry with them, I cared about them and I understood. Understanding these friends helped me to understand my h. I've always believed that anger is just another way of expressing hurt anyway. A means to protect yourself from pain. (OK, no need to start a big discussion about that, guys, it's just one of my strange opinions!!!!!) And as I allowed myself to work through the pain and understand things better, there just wasn't much anger. Not even toward PT. <P>This worked for me. Everyone has to follow their own heart, ya know? Every situation is different.<P>And Jim is right. Protecting the safety of the spouse and family is NOT a lb!!!!<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited February 02, 2000).]

Wow I was just going to pose this question myself. See I just found out and the pain seems to be horrific, plus just starting a new job. I have been pushing perhaps too hard, not being patient. Those words are so comforting. I sent him flowers today, only to have a call to him blow up...I know he thinks I am trying to guilt him, and perhaps he is right...he should be sending me flowers. But the words above will give me hope...and strength...thank you...and I will do my best not to LB.<BR>Thank you for asking the question!

You're welcome, and thanks for all the responses, but what I was looking for - really more than an explanation or endorsement of Plan A as "self-improvement" (although I really do see all this)- is some idea as to its actual effectiveness. I know from lurking here that there are some who've been Plan A-ing for years while the cheating spouse goes on having his cake and eating it, too (I know you move on to Plan B at some point). My question really is, does Plan A WORK more often than not?

quandry:<P>Harley has a 90% success rate in marriage counseling, while most marriage counselors have success rates in the teens.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>how often does Plan A work (that is, end the affair and restore the marriage) vs. fail (result in divorce or an endless perpetuation of the agony while the betrayer "decides")<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Pure plan A does work in the way that you "want" it to work---but not all the time. This is what <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steve Harley</A> has to say about dealing with infidelity:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have found that the path to recovery is very narrow and establishing hope in both members of the marriage can be very difficult. However, since I believe that it is my job to help couples stay on the path by mapping out a plan and providing encouragement to continue, couples soon learn that success is possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The narrow path that Steve speaks of is covered in SAA---the Plan A/Plan B approach.<P>If your spouse is having an affair, it's pretty safe to say that they don't "love" you (at least in the way that you want them to). Putting a full-fledged plan A effort in place demonstrates to them that you are very committed to the marriage and their happiness, and that you have hope for the future (during a pretty hopeless situation). Sometimes, this is enough. If the affair isn't too serious; if the marriage wasn't horrible (for the betraying spouse) prior---a good plan A may save the marriage on it's own.<P>If you're not in that situation---like I was with my wife, then a good plan A will STILL be effective, but you may end up in Plan B. I did a pretty good plan A---although when I was going on to Plan B, I thought that I had "wasted" my efforts. But during the separation phase I realized the good "self-growth" that Plan A had helped me with. And the effectiveness of my Plan A efforts in the end are what led my wife to reconcile with me---it wasn't the Plan B "leaving" effect (although that has it's place). <P>For my baseball analogy---Plan A is like a great starting pitcher, but there are times where you really will need a dynamite closer (Plan B) to win the game. Don't discount a good plan A effort---without it, why would the spouse come back?? You're counting on them remembering the way it was in the beginning---but they've had the affair, so those memories are probably muddled. You want to create new memories of a loving, committed, dedicated spouse. Remember that affairs end. When they do, you want the betrayed spouse to think of you as "that loving person who stuck with me..." as opposed to "that punishing SOB who's gonna rub my face in it". You talk of "accountability" and "responsibility" and "entitlement"---those words smack of punishment. You never want to punish your spouse. Ever.<P>I think if you look around that you'll see the success stories here are the ones who have learned how to grow through the MB principles.

quandry, <P>I've been plan Aing for a year now and I'll let you judge whether it has been effective. <P>First, a little history about me. Dec 98, it finally dawned on me that my wife wasn't happy in our marriage. I felt her slipping away and becoming very detached. I pressed for why she was feeling this way, and she let me have it. She said things to me that left me devastated as a husband and a man. After that night, she completely shut off all emotional feeling towards me. Our marriage slid even further into the abyss. <P>Feb 99, I found there was another man and realized what the word "devastated" really meant. <P>I didn't learn about MB until May 99, but I did start what is called a Plan A to win her back. This initially caused severe anger on her part because she didn't want me to win her back. The rejection I received was overwhelming at times. Complete disrespect, no affection, no admiration, nothing. She grew to hate what I was trying to do. It would have been easy to walk away at that time. She gave me every reason to, and probably hoped I would. But, I didn't. <P>Thankfully, I was able to realize my part in the disintegration of our marriage. I also realized I not only didn't know what her needs were, I didn't know her anymore. <P>So, I set out to get to know my wife again. It took me some time to figure out that she wasn't going to jump back into matrimonial bliss with me any time soon, so I set small goals. The first was to become a friend again. I started to talk to her and really listen to what she had to say. This in itself was a challenge beyond compare for me. I was never a great conversationalist. But, I learned to become one. <P>I found other needs and implemented them into my plan and more importantly my day to day behavior. I didn't budge in my Plan A since I started. My personality has changed pretty dramatically since discovery. I cherish my wife every day. She knows I love her. <P>She is slowing returning to the marriage. She is very slowly starting to return some of that love. The emotional bond that was created between her and this OM has been a nightmare for me. The grip is loosening. As the days pass, reality set in a little more. My wife is hurting right now. She's hurting a lot. But, I have to say Plan A is working for me. Keep in mind, any plan A you do now has to be a life long commitment. <P>Plan B has always been in the back of my mind. I have probably written 4 good bye letters to my wife. Of course, I never gave them to her. I am not a Plan B proponent. I don't think you can solve problems while separated. If your together, time is on your side. Many people are in Plan B unwillingly (i.e. the spouse left). But, if at all possible, try and keep your mate in the home. <P>I know there comes a time when enough is enough. You can't Plan A forever without any positive signs of change. Don't expect quick fixes either. Marriages don't fall a part over night and they don't get repaired over night either. The process is horribly slow. We all become aware of what patience really is through this journey. This is the toughest thing I have ever done in my life. No matter the outcome, I will have no regrets for trying to save my marriage. <P>Best wishes to you, <P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

I think Plan A is not particularly effective unless the betrayer is feeling at least a little guilt on his/her own. When they are feeling no guilt, Plan A is just another lovebuster, and does make it easier for the betrayer to walk all over the betrayed.

Quandry~<BR>You asked for the advice of an expert, an older person here, she is SO RIGHT! I have to say Lori pinned the tail on the donkey! She said what it means exactly. It took me awhile to figure out what plan A was truly about but I do have to say it works, when viewed in the right way. My H also said that it wasn't me that influenced him to have the affair, even before he told me about the affair he would say how much he loved me and how I was such a great lover, friend, mother, partner. He said the affair was an escape from reality. But I looked inside myself and using the plan A became the kind of person I as a person idealized. What I wanted to become took precedence over what I was working on in my marriage. HURRAY Lori!<BR>Pray this helps some other people as well! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

Quandry,<P>I cannot beging to compare myself to the others that have posted this thread ahead of me. They have taught me what I know.<P>I posted the following in Dec. I still believe it to be true.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Hi All,<BR>I was reading posts just now and I started to get caught up in the pain of it all. I know too well that sick feeling deep in my gut. I never in my life dreamed I would have felt that badly.<P>What can I do?<P>I can try to run from it. IN a bottle of booze or pills. I'll only have to deal with it later.<P>I can live in denial. That won't work either, the cloud of my own delusional lies will eventually dissapate, then I have to deal with it anyhow.<P>OR<P>I can look it in the face and get into the solutions!! To me this was the only option. I can't drink or do drugs, I'm an addict and that will only make things worse. I can't deny what happened, so why bother.<P>So far this has been the most painful thing I've experienced in my 31 years. So far this has been the most growing experience in my life. I have learned how to feel, I have learned what love is, and most importantly I have a real relationship with God.<P>I had to ask myself, DO I WANT MY MARRIAGE TO WORK? YES I DO.<P>Does it matter who's to blame? NO!<P>What am I willing to do? Whatever it takes!<P>The first thing I had to do is own my part of my marriages failings. This is as real as it gets folks. If I did my job as a husband there wouldn't have been a void in my relationship. That was a hard-[censored] pill to swollow!!!<P>Knowing my shortcomings is my starting point.After I identified those things about me I have begun to change.<P>Read this very closely:<BR>CHANGE ONLY COMES ON BENDED KNEE<P>God is the only one that I can really draw my strength and courage from. Without Him I have a huge hole in my gut, Only a relationship with Him can fill that hole.<P>Next comes surrender. NOT EASY!!! I have to do it over and over and over. <P>What are the facts? My wife is in fantacy love with another person. OUCH!!!<P>Who has to take the lead in repairing the marriage? Me. Does it matter why? NO!<P>What to do now? Follow the principles Dr.H has laid out. It is that simple.<P>I have seen enough examples of success to know that they do work.<P>The biggest thing I have to do is stop begging and bargaining. W knows I want to reconcile, groveling doesn't work.<P>I have to stop trying to educate her. She is in the grips of a horrific addiction. From what I've seen, I know heroin addicts that have had an easier time kicking there habbit. The only thing lectureing has done is drive her farther away.<P>Showing her how angry I am doesn't work either. OP doesn't scream, judge and condem her, why come home to that.<P>Showing her how hurt I am has done nothing but heap more guilt on her. OP doesn't make her feel guilty.<P>Right now OP is the only place she doesn't have to face reality, it feels safe.<P>Right wrong or indifferent, this is how it is.<P>What to do? Create a safe place for her to go when she crashes. That is what plan-a does. How long do I plan-a? Until moving into plan-b doesn't feel like punishment to her, or until I start to feel my love for her starting to fade.<P>Am I going to have to eat alot of crap? You bet. Will this build into a deep seeded resentment? Only if I don't have a place to vent.<P>I forget which post it was but the author takes no blame for S's EMA. I say bull****.<BR>In order for me to grow and learn from this I don't have to be honest, I have to GET honest! Again, If I were such a great S my [censored] wouldn't be posting here.<P>You are probably wondering what is so positive about this post. Well, I'll tell you.<P>I am going to restore my marriage. I am going to Follow God on this very narrow path. I know what His will is. His will shall be done. Not in my time, in His. All I have to do is stay out of His way. Plan-a & b, give me the power to do that.<P><BR>All marriages can be restored. I have to have the strength of character to wait. <P>Someone also said the wedding vow said for better or worse. That goes both ways.<P>If I really want my marriage restored I have to find the winners and do what they do. If I can't get my **** together, and accept the fact that I'm going to have to do the work here, I might as well give up now and not waste my time.<P>For me the only way I can get through this is my faith in God. He will never let me down.<P>You will hear me piss&moan from time to time, however I will keep my hope and faith up in the face of total despair.<P>No one said life was easy.<P>I could write a whole thread on the gifts I have recieved because of my W infidelity. Just know that I already am a better person.<P>Remember:"commit to the Lord what ever you do, and your plans will succeed" Proverbs16:3<P>I love each and every one of you and you are all in my prayers.<P>------------------<P>This is how I see it. If youve followed my story at all you'l know that I have executed a nearly flawless plan-a for the past 6 weeks. I've come to the point to where I'll be going into plan-b to protect my W from my anger and protect my love for her.<P>Will it work? God willing...<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

I know this is not my post, but i just wanted to let Bill know that he has helped give me strength.<P>Thank you

You're welcome..<P>I can only keep what I have by giving it away...<P><BR>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

This is all wonderfull advice.....but I have one question...How do I plan A..or should I even plan A ..when my wife has moved out and wont even tell me where she lives? I wish i even had the chance to plan A with her here.

Hi Vaforme -<P>It's all right in there.....read Lostva's post again.<P>You plan A starting with you!!!<P>Plan A is simply learning how to be nice again!! You know how we are so polite and conscience of our mannerisms when we are speaking with strangers or our elders? Then with the people we love the most and know will always be in our lives - we tend to get very lax with those same manners and politeness!!<P>Well, we have to retrain ourselves to treat our spouse with the respect and care that we know we should. <P>That's one part of plan A - analyzing what we need to work on to be nice!!<P>Another aspect of it is working through our emotions and putting things in a good perspective. This is where we grow and gain strength through understanding, caring, patience, setting a goal and keeping our eyes, hearts and emotions on that goal.<P>A final part of plan a - and I call it the benefit because that is really what it is - is to allow your new attitude and behaviors to be seen by your spouse.<P>This is done whenever you have contact, whether that is initiated by her or you.<BR>Lori chose to write informative, fun letters and cards.....her H never acknowledged them while living with OW but they had a major impact come to find out later.<P>I did the same to start out with, but my H took them as lovebusters because he absolutely did not want to see or hear anything from me - it was too much for his guilt - so I had to stop.<P>Even if you do not see her all that much any changes in you will be noticed by friends, relatives, acquaintances, etc and will be related. Noone will be able to overlook it when you start projecting this "aura" of new behavior and strength.<P>Does this help? <P>The key is to remember that Plan A is not done to "get a spouse to see or do" anything.....it is done to retrain ourselves and become a better partner for the rest of our lives. It is not a temporary thing!! Even if one goes to Plan B later, Plan A behavior is used for ever more. It's something used for everyone...your parents, siblings, kids, boss, etc.<P>Big Hugs,<P>Sheba