I had a difficult delivery with my baby a few months ago and sex is very painful. I was a virgin when we married 7 years ago and frankly sex has never been easy for me, but I oblige enthusiastically. Long before we had the baby my husband began to fantasize about 'swinging'. He said it was harmless and I played along with the fantasy, until one day he asked me if I would consider having sex with another man. I told him how hurt I was that he no longer valued me as he had when we first met (he couldn't stand it when another man even looked at me), and that he seemed to have forgotten what it meant to us both that all those years ago I chose him to be my first. He apologized and told me I was right, the idea was sickening and to forget about it. I did forget about it, until now. I guess we had hit a brick wall with our sex life - I had a very bad tear at the birth which still hasn't fully healed months later. Anyway, one morning I found out that he had spent much of the night viewing internet porn and had bought a membership to the swingers club - and he went to some lengths to prevent my finding out. I felt sick and betrayed, hurt and useless at this lowest time in my life sexually and as a woman. I'll cut to the point - he says he was stupid, curious, just fantasizing, and that it doesn't mean he was seeking sex outside our marriage and now it's completely over. He says that now he doesn't even want sex, just to be with me and our baby. Problem solved? I know he is ashamed but I don't trust him and I feel so low. I don't know how to get past this - he said it was fantasy but it seems he had one foot planted firmly in reality.

Gaby,<P>CAUTION. I think many will agree with me. All men want sex. It is probably their most number one ranked need. If he really means that, he could wind up resenting the new baby down the road when he really does want sex. But then again, I think...He wants sex. Once one need is not met, it opens the doors for an affair to start. <P>I feel bad you are in this spot, but it is important you solve this problem before something drastic happens. You said you were a virgin before you married. I couldn't imagine you giving in to the swingers club then. I personally don't think its healthy, but my H tried to get me to do it once. No thankyou!!<P>I didn't read your profile, but you need to do something quick. Once an affair starts, its very hard to get out of that whole mess. So I don't want to be graphic, but you said you have a bad tear that hasn't healed yet. Well, can you find other sexual pleasures for him(orally) that can hold him over. My God I can't believe I am saying this on a PUBLIC FORUM!!! But if you do it right, this can satisfy him tremendously and keep his needs under control until you heal. ALso, check with your doctor and see what else you can do. It is going to be painful anyway soon after a baby and an episiotomy. But shortly after, that pain should subside. I had a bad episiotomy, very bad, and I was OK about 8 weeks later. In the meantime, SATISFY his needs, read this forum and see where all of us are who missed the warnings . <P>If the pain is still bad, and he is pressuring you about swingers, or making you self conscience about your sexuality, you could develop a subconscience problem with this also. SO speak to your doctor and see what you can do about that pain. <P>I hope I didn't offend you by my suggestion, and others will be honest as I have, but you can still satisfy him tremendously without the "old fashioned" way. Do it for your marriage . Don't let it go into an affair. <P>Prayers are with you.<BR>________________________________________<BR>

Hi Gaby - a fellow Canadian....HI! How's it going eh? (Sorry - that isn't even "me" talking and I try as best as I can to catch the "eh's" from the kids...)<P>Haven't got much time now but will return later. I have some background in what you are dealing with and will share what I have learned but am in no way an expert. The good folks here are far better than I to look at your relationship and offer guidance in those regards. I may be of some help with the issues you are facing.<P>Questions:<BR>Have you ever discussed the difficulties (sex) with a doctor? Also, months seems an awfully long time to be healing - again what does the Doc say? (I know that our Healthcare system is heading down the toilet but there are still some Doctor's who believe in treating patients).<P>Be careful how you discuss this issue with your husband. In the past, his discussing his fantasies with you was a very honest approach. You have every right to feel as you do but just be careful that you hear him without judgement. <P>As I said, short on time. Will check in later.<P>Cheers,<BR>Lisa<P>PS: Ever been to Ottawa? Winterlude is in full force - I hear the snow sculptures are incredible this year.....maybe when the little one is old enough.

Thanks to both for responding - I already feel better.<P>Lonelymom - I get what you're saying about men's needs and have done what I can to satisfy him, even when it causes me pain (he always says 'sorry' afterwards). What I can't get over is his total insensitivity to what I'm going through, and how I feel about my body. I'm wondering what he's done with the sweet, loving, caring man who cherished and cared for me? Am I overreacting? Was it just a moment of weakness - harmless curiosity as he says, or does buying a membership to this swinging thing prove there's more to him than meets the eye??<P>Lisa - Doctors say tear was mended properly but scar tissue heals slowly (6 mos.) and isn't very pliable (I hope this isn't grossing you out, but then you have kids, so...) They say hang in there. Would love to benefit from your experience.<P>Yes - I love Ottawa, my best friend lives there. Planning a summer trip, maybe winter in a couple of years!

OK - again quickly. I have learned that how you feel about your body is pretty much YOUR problem. This does not mean that your husband can treat you without respect but it does mean that you need to have respect for yourself.<P>Will post later on the issues that brought you here. In the mean time, have you read the MB web site stuff? I don't have the links at the moment but there is some great info on how to satisfy the need for sex even when there is not the same need present. Also the "what if sex hurts" stuff. Beyond his .....current desires, there will be much for the two of you to work on.<P>Please, no, it takes much, much more to gross ME out..... <P>Cheers,<BR>Lisa

Hi Gaby,<P>Up here in the frozen north too.<P>I'm glad you've talked to a doctor about it and having had 3 children I've been through it. This might be a chance for the two of you to explore the sexual possibilities outside of intercourse. Childbirth is not the only condition that leads one or the other partner to have uncomfrotable or not be able to have intercourse. In the course of a long marriage, ususally it's just the first.<P>Someone has already mentioned oral sex, there is also masturbation, mutual or otherwise. Shared fantasies, shared visions of what you will do when things are comfortable again. Consider extra lubrication, there are a number of products avoilable at most drug stores and Toronto has several stores specializing in sexual aids. "Good for Her" on Harbord is a very non-threatening place of that type.<P>Try to get over feeling sick and betrayed and think up some ways to surprise him. You may be better than anything he has fantasized.

Gaby,<P>I have had 3 children, my middle was over 10 1/2 pounds. (Yes, he was born naturally, I'm almost embarrassed to admit) I tore from yesterday til tomorrow. The pain brought on severe and extended post-partum depression, I suffer from depression anyway. This may be part of the problem. Nursing also made it hard for me to become aroused and lubricated. This made matter worse due to the episiotomy.<BR> <BR>After 6 months I went to another Dr that was a friend. I had bad scar tissue, but he did a procedure that helped it. He injected the scar tissue, it was kind of like a Keloid, with a type of steroid and rubbed it extensively. It was unpleasant and involved several female nurse witnesses. It made all the difference in the world. Sex felt better than it even did before my first baby. He also gave me a lubricant with a numbing agent in it to use if I needed and I did use it for a short time after the treatment. The numbing agent did just that, but it allowed for completion of intercourse. My H never mentioned feeling that he was numbed.<P>I agree with the others about being creative. I know your H will appreciate it.<P>Your comments about your body made me feel real bad for you. My H was extremely insensitive about the changes that took place in my body after having children. I have found though, that men are a lot more willing to overlook that sort of thing if they are getting sexual satisfaction.<BR>

Gaby<P>I wanted to wait for some replies before I posted again. I was nervous about my suggestion, as don't see a lot of sexual stuff tackled here. I don't want to offend you or anyone else. <P>Since you are OK with the honesty, I will share some more with you. It sounds like this is your first baby? I read so many posts sometimes I don't get all the details the first time around. I was 18 with my first baby. WHen I say 18, I will say, just barely 18!! I had about 23 stitches from the ordeal. Baby was 7# 14 oz. But I was still maturing. I had a lot of pain and also was breast feeding. The lubrication, will definetly help. The feelings about your body changing, no matter how caring you want H to be, not many men can understand this feeling. My H told me I was sexier when I was pregnant, so I was OK with my body. But you may need to seek your doctor, you could also have post partum depression. Without proper help some people can't get over that on their own.<P>I still an concerned about H's comments, he doesn't even want sex. Be careful there. The swingers and internet might suggest otherwise. I also know that some men can get a little jealous when new baby comes. I have even read some posts where that was the reason some men left their W, because they felt "not needed" anymore. <P>You came to the right place. You will get help and support here. Try and search online for some other sites and get creative fast!!! I know you are tired, from middle of the night feedings, and a hard labor, but if you can, put some focus on H right now, its important. Can I suggest, if you think you have postpartum blues, can H go with you to the doctor, maybe he can respect your problem a little more with medical explanations.<P>Good luck!<P>

I can see there are a lot of wonderful, caring people here. Thank you for taking the time to help when you have such serious pain of your own (my problems are so small by comparison).<P>I must confess that at this time I guess I must still be feeling too much hurt and mistrust because I don't really care about his sexual happiness (I mean, he certainly doesn't seem to care about mine). I'm also too busy wondering why he isn't being more patient considering what I went through 'down there' and whether his actions with respect to this swingers group is a real sign that he wants sex with other women (read-couples??). Do you see? If that's the case, I can't be with him! Thanks for your suggestions though, maybe down the road they'll work for me, if it's not too late by then.

Gaby,<P>First of all, I want to applaud your decision to remain a virgin before marriage. You have avoided more problems by this decision than you will ever know. <P>I assure you that I am not trying to insult you or hurt your feelings, but I think that you probably do not understand very much about men. There are some males who do not want sex, but they are either under the age of 10 or under 6 feet of ground. <P>My perception is that your husband felt extreme guilt because of how much his actions hurt you that the only way he can show you that he is sorry and punish himself is to tell you that he does not even want sex. This was an altruistic thing for him to do, but it is merely a denial of the problem. <P>Another misperception is that men only want sex for the sake of sex. The truth is that men want intimacy, but it is shown through a desire for sex. You state that sex has never been easy for you, but you oblige enthusiastically. Even though you may think that you are showing enthsiasm, you may not be fooling your husband. If you are not truly enjoying sex with your husband, there is something wrong. I would suggest that you find a Christian counselor who can help you with this. It may only have been a physical problem which may resolve itself. <P>As to the swinging issue, this is something which is very addictive if a man continually obsesses over it. I think that your husband should seek out another man who will not be judgmental, but will hold him accountable for this. Either put some screening software on the computer or better yet, get an internet provider that screens it for you.<P>As to an action plan for now, start tonight, get the baby to bed, put on the sexiest lingerie you can find and put on a stripshow for him which concludes with giving him oral sex. I know this sounds shocking, but we are talking about saving your marriage. Tell him that you are sorry for not meeting his sexual needs in the past and let him know that you have every intention to fulfill every one of his sexual fantasies for the rest of his life. <P>Next, go to your doctor, explain the problem and do whatever it takes to get your problem resolved. There have been some very good suggestions here, use them. Your husband will be able to hold himself off for a while but not for long. Now is the time for action. <P>I know I have been blunt, but I only wish there was someone to give these suggestions to my wife and that she would listen.<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You<BR>John

I have a book called "The Act of Marriage" It is a Christian based Sex How-To book and is excellent. It isn't crude and isn't over clinical.<P>I had sexual problems for the first 13 years of our marriage. They are being resolved now because I have become more informed and have learned what to do to please myself which has allowed my H to learn how to please me. Believe it or not, it doesn't always come naturally, especially for women.<P>I agree that you need to take action. His curiousity seems to be a sign if his needs not being fulfilled.

Gaby,<P>Thanks for checking out part of my story (there is much more to that tangled mess from last week).<P>I agree with John, (is it too late). That was my first thought. Maybe I am getting a little better at understanding men. What he has suggested would be a good start. Then be sure to speak to the doctor tomorrow. <P>Good luck and have fun tonite!<BR>

Definitely go to the doctor. I had voiced concerns to doctors for years about my lack of response. I heard on more than one occassion "Sex for women is 99% concentration and for men it is 99% perspiration". I heard "relax" "don't worry". I was even told to drink a glass of wine before in order to deaden my inhabitions. I never heard from any of them that there are certain things that can be done that will eventually almost guarantee an orgasm.<P>When I went to the doctor after my son's birth, penetration wasn't just unenjoyable, it wasn't even just uncomfortable, it was very painful. The doctor examined me and after a moment he said "Tell me, is this what you are experiencing" and found the exact cause of the pain. It was real and he fixed it.<P>I also discovered after 13 years of marriage that birth control pills were actually decreasing my sex drive and my response. This isn't a very common side effect, but it is one. I had been on the pill, the 3 month shot, pregnant or nursing for our entire marriage. After my H had a vascectomy I went off of everything and realized sex actually felt good. Unfortanetly, by then my H was secretly having an affair in part because he questioned his adequacy because he had never seemed to satisfy me.<P>About the fantasies. I know they hurt you, but this may be his way of telling you that he needs help. It is far from too late.

You guys are all really caring - I can see that you want what is best for my marriage, but doesn't anyone question my husband's behaviour? Does this all have to do with my sexual inadequacy?<BR>

Hi Gaby (excuse me for a minute...)<P>Hey Essyboo - how was the fire get away....pretty hot I hope <P>Gaby, with all due respect to others posting, giving your husband oral sex and learning how you can be the sexiest you going after his indescretion is probably just about the last thing you want to do right now.<P>I have learned from the many people on this board that there are many different levels of tolerance for a variety of things. Also, many here have either had an affair or been hurt by the actions of a spouse who had an affair and may not see what you are dealing with as the elephant that you do. But everybody here is dealing with BETRAYAL in one form or another and that is what you are feeling right now - betrayed (am I right?) The good Harley himself says that "an affair is anything that the betrayed belives it to be" or something along those lines.<P>I have seen many posts from betrayed spouses where the last thing that they wanted was to make love to or to go out of their way to please a spouse who hurt them, lied, and deceived. You are probably no different.<P>You came here to get some answers and I don't think that you are many from anyone who truly appreciates the shoes you walk in right now or how hurt you are really feeling at the moment - am I right? (Sorry folks......)<P>Yes, there are some people around here who may wish that "all their spouse did was spend time on porn sights, engage in the fantasy of a swingers club without actually going through with it, etc" but what I read from your letter is that you are feeling betrayed and betrayed is not in the eye of the beholder but the individual.<P>I have wicked PMS at the moment so everyone please forgive my rant and feel free to correct me if you feel I am way off here.<P>To what extent has this happened? How often? Does he make an effort to meet your emotional needs? Do you make an effort to meet his? - other than the sex... (Have you read the MB site about EN's et al?)<P>The fact is that your spouse deceived you and went to great lengths to try to hide this from you. What else has he tried to hide? Do you suspect anything else? Are you a suspicious person by nature (ie. have you looked further into his interests on the net and deeper?)<P>Most of what I see are suggestions on how YOU can improve your sexual performance but there is some accountability on your husband as well. I am not saying that you are absolved from doing what you can to make your marriage work but rather that the support you seek is not just one-sided (ie. she's not giving it to him so before anything else she's gotta solve this one). I think that what Gaby is saying is that she doesn't WANT to right now and needs some understanding before being told to "jump right back on that horse".<P>All the medical advice will no doubt be of good use as may the book references when you are ready for them.<P>Will keep checking in. Gotta go now, raging hormones - I need a tea (with a little something else in it I think )<P>Cheers!<BR>Lisa<p>[This message has been edited by LisaM (edited February 10, 2000).]

Well Lisa M your understanding came a little too late. I really started to question my part in causing his wanderlust, his coldness, his insensitivity. <P>So I gave him what he wanted. He warmed up pretty quickly. As for me, my hurt has turned to hate.<P>Won't be checking in for any more advice, thanks.

<BR>You'll find a letter in the Question and Answer section of MB that will give you the information you need:<BR>"What To Do If Your Spouse Has an Addiction to Pornograpy". Please read it and follow Dr. Harley's advice. Okay?<P> <P>------------------<BR>HisOtherHalf <P>[This message has been edited by Diana Brinsley (edited February 11, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Diana Brinsley (edited February 11, 2000).]

Gaby, <BR>I really hope that you have come back if only to read and learn.<P>As with all insight and advice that you receive in life, it is up to you to choose that which applies to you and that which you are comfortable with. That said, I think we also have to be able to take a step outside ourselves and ask sometimes if there is truth to the insight as it applies to our given situations. When in doubt, keep asking. Keep clarifying. Keep posting!<P>The entire purpose of this forum is support and an opportunity to learn and heal. <P>The final decision on what you do with the insight provided here is entirely up to you. If making love to your husband right now makes you feel angry - this is not going to do either of you any good. I am not saying that for the rest of your married life you should not have sex but that sometimes you need to put the horse before the cart so to speak. You need to define in your situation, what the horse is and what is the cart and then move forward accordingly.<P>Please read the information on the MB web site. Sacrifice is not in keeping with the spirit of building healthy happy relationships. If you feel that making love with/to your husband is compromising YOU right now because of his actions or for any other reason, you need to address these reasons before things become a bigger problem than they are.<P>If you are uncomfortable posting, you are welcome to e-mail me at L_I_S_A_M@yahoo.com<P>By virtue of the caring people who responded you did receive care and support. You are in the right place for both of these things. Everyone here knows that your feelings are real and wants to see you have a good marriage. <P>Even the insight that you do not necessarily agree with is an opportunity to learn from. If you read some of the many posts you will see that there is advice offered by many that seems to be at opposing ends of the planet from one another sometimes and respectful (most of the time) debate can become the norm on some threads. I kind of look at it like this: one post is flour. One is the eggs, another the semi-sweet chocolate, another still the sugar and so on. Each is an individual ingredient but if you mix them all together, you end up with a fantastic chocolate cake in the end. You need to decide which ingredients you would most benefit from if you were baking a cake.<P>Good luck. I hope to hear from you soon.<P>Cheers,<BR>Lisa<BR>

Hi Gaby,<P>Lisa is right of course. If we had your husband here we would have some things to say to him. But what we have is you. It sounds like you are not ready to be sexy because you're feeling uunwanted or inadequate. Consider telling him that, how his interest in "swinging" etc. makes you feel. <P>Also remember that this is a very high stress time for you, it would be even if you had had a easy birth. It is for him too. I wouldn't be too upset over the porn viewing, not happy, but not too upset. The membership in a swingers club is different.<BR>I think you are going to have to have a serious talk about what role this plays in his life before either of you will be happy.<P>You may not be ready to implement some of the above suggestions yet, keep them in mind for when you are. I have found that one of the most arousing situations is the honest sharing of feelings. <P>Let us know how you are doing, take care of yourself and that baby

Gaby <P>COME BACK COME BACK!!!<P>Lisa has stressed some good points. Just remember different people will interpret different things out of your posts. Thats why you get such a wide range of replies. <P>I like the wide range, because it educates me and keeps me thinking. Myself, I interpreted your questions as more sexual, but didn't feel you actually felt you were to blame for his "swingers and internet". Just want to let you know , YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME, I do think it is something within him. <P>I feel bad that you resent him after last night because that is not healthy either. It still sounds like he is not meeting your needs right now either. I hope you two work this out. <P>It definetly is a stressful time after new baby and health issues as well. If you are angry about the internet, and swinger stuff, I can sympathize, my H was like that a few years, and it really made me feel disgusted. Thats just me, there are others who wouldn't be either. I always say, until you've been through the exact same thing, you just don't know how you'd feel about something. <P>I always said..if my H ever cheated on me, it would be OVER. A lot of people say that, in reality, as the forum will prove, its far from over at that point.<P>The people on this site care about others and give advice from their heart. Be sure you think things through before acting upon anything. I am taking advice right now to stay away from OM not because I really want to. Or because I care what H thinks or Plan A right now. But because I respect what the writers have told me. I have read their honest stories as well, and if they have been through that aspect, I can trust their judgement, when mine is no good right now. <P>Let us know when you come back!! Good luck with your baby and healing process.