Thanksgiving was pretty OK for W and I but aftermath was not. Let me just describe what happened.<P>Her sister, who's recently divorced and is now out of work, drove up on T day and stayed with us through part of Sunday. Last Weds night, while we were getting ready, all at once, out the blue, my W barged into the kitchen (where I like to sit) and claimed that I'd peed on the bathroom floor so that when she sat on the toilet, her feet were in my pee. I went and checked. Nada. This was an absolute fabrication, because I remember carefully wiping the area in front of the toilet after I'd peed to prevent just such a thing from happening. (It happened just ONCE in our entire marriage, and I've always been careful after that to wipe up.) So I knew that she was just picking a fight, so she could blame me for ruining the holiday. I simply told her that she was imagining things and went down to my basement cave for the rest of the night. She wasn't in our bed when I went to bed and wasn't there the next morning either. Well, we refought the fight in the morning and then, all at once, I guess she decided that this wasn't how she wanted to spend the T-day holidays and so, on her initiative, we made up. I finished repairing an old drawing table for my W and presented it to her as a T-day present. After her sister arrived, things were great and we had a great time with a real Turkey dinner with all the trimmings, and then playing cards a lot, going to hear a punk rock band at a restaurant/bar Fri night, and then to a museum on Sat. The idea was to try and cheer her sister up and I think we succeeded to some extent. Everything went along very smoothly, and I almost could see my W and I getting our old groove back except for one thing. Mornings (she was now back to sleeping in our bed) as soon as we'd wake up, she say, "Gotta get up!" and be out of there like a shot without so much as even a little pat or a peck on the cheek. After her sister left on Sunday, she had to go out and, of course, I had my suspicions as to why, so after a while, I went out looking for her car. Well, I found it and went into a store to watch her car through the window. Guess what? Turned out she was shopping in the store and so she caught me spying. Well, when we got home, she really lit into me for this and asked me, "What's wrong with you?" and I just lost it.<P>I started telling her I was sick of her scapegoating, sick of her affair, sick of her lying about her affair, sick of her trying to make me out as crazy for accusing her of an affair, that she was the really sick one in this marriage, not me, etc., etc. And I've decided that's it for me. I just refuse to put up with this kind of treatment any more, always being blamed for every little thing and getting almost no affection let alone sex (what affection I do get, I have to initiate - she never even offers a hug or a kiss any more). I also told her that I don't care where she sleeps as long as it's not with me, since even when she sleeps in our bed, it's as though she's not there anyway. This time I mean it. No more apologies, no more backing down. I really don't care any more WHAT she does! Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

i think i had the same fight last night.<BR>i really feel for you, wex.<BR>im sorry you have had to go through this for so long

Dear isstubborn, oh I mean wex.....<P>Keep on venting. It is okay.<P>TNT

Wex, <P>My T-day was similar to yours. the actual day was OK, the next day was love buster city. Cr@p flew from all directions. My W has a way of making me out to be the bad guy, and she was successful once again. I apologized for all the junk I spewed - she didn't. Of course, the emails between her and d*ckhead where all smiles and gushy. Sorry, I'm still venting. <P>I am certainly interested in how your story unfolds as you already know about my recent plight. <P>God be with ALL of us right now. <P>SHA<P>

hi wex, ohhh I am so sorry this is happening. This snooping is really causing trouble. But I can see why you are doing it. Kind of puts you in a bad place all the time. If she was only going shopping, why not ask you to come or tell you where she was going? Would this be an intrusioninto her personal business? She needs to feel so independent that she does not invite you? Does not sound very loving or respectful to me! I am sorry that your weekend ended on such a note. Any luck getting a decent cousnelor yet? You have been so patient wex. Can you hang in there a bit longer? <BR>Sexism is alive and well on this board. Have you noticed we usually talk about sending the frying pan or 2x4 to women on here that have really stubborn or senseless H's. In this case I am sure we could send you something like a broiler pan or broon handle to see if that helps her senses? I am not sure what implemetn would be most appropriate, but certainly others will have some ideas? Implantable tracking devide would be good. We can slip it under the skin, no pain, in just a few secs. (((((hugs)))))<BR>hi sha, that term you used, d***h***? For yrs I have called my h 'dh'. It is the perfect nickname..dear husband most of the time, but d**kh**d some of the time. Kind of just one of those things that develops over the yrs I guess! We have decided that it is a term of endearment!

Wex,<P>First, I must say that you are a very lucky fella because in 46 of the 50 states the crime that you commited would be eligible for death row. Yeah, how does that feel, big guy.<P>Really, I would have to agree with you that it was just something to fight about. I am never amazed anymore with some of the things that are now so IMPORTANT that never were before.<P>Stand firm. I have gained more ground and respect this way than the, "oh I'm so sorry I was a rotten husband and will worship the ground you walk on" <P>"ESABATM" 50 points to anyone able to figure out what the whack o medic means.<P>Wex, It's time for us to be a stand up Guy!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P><BR>

Wex,<P>Our S's sure have a way of pushing all the right buttons to make us blow our stack and then turn it around to we are the bad guys!!!<P>I bought this new book and recommend it:<P>"The Solo Partner" by Phil Deluca. A quick read - really good about how to stop these crazy fight cycles with your S. <P>Good ahead and blow a bunch of steam off now. You need to get good and furious - oh, wait......I think you ALREADY did!!! Well, blow some more off if you need to.....<P>Sheba, hey, send that list over of the things to do and the shopping list of stuff to buy - the punching bag, gloves, etc. Instructions needed over here right now!!! <P>Seriously, Wex, sometimes you just feel better if you could kick some butt, which is why I always loved Tae Kwon Do!!!<P>Roll Me Away<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Wex, maybe you should ask your wife to go shopping with you to buy a heavy punching bag and two pairs of gloves. You need two pairs, the first wears out fast.

Everyone - Sorry for the delay in responding. Busy couple of days.<P>cl - I did suggest to her once that we buy a pair of those upholstery bats (can't remember where I saw them) that are designed for just such a purpose. We have had a few extremely satisfying pillow figths, but given the mode she's in now, she doesn't seem interested in doing much of anything like that with me any more. Go out, yes, play no. <P>Sometimes she does invite me along or at least asks me if I want to come. The whole story on last Sun. was this. She was having a wreath-making party Mon. night (hens only, which was fine with me, as that's not something I'm really into anyway). So after her sister left on Sun., she said she was going over the friends' house where we got married to collect some pine branches (they have a terrific wooded back yard). Since she didn't ask me if I wanted to come along (as she sometimes does on these errands, especially since I'd knocked myself out "being good" over the holidays) I was suspicious. After she'd been gone over an hour, I gave in and decided to drive over to the friends and see if she was really there. On the way, she passed me in her car and honked. That was when I turned around and went looking for her car. (Pretty stupid, I know.) When she saw me in the store, I should just have said hello and that I was there looking for a present for her. Instead, I ducked out, hoping she hadn't seen me but she had. <P>Medic - My W can make a federal crime out of anything including a chipped cup. I've always told her she would have been a great success as a prosecuting attorney, probably made D.A. anywhere. I am going to stand tall this time, no apologies as in the past, because now, I really don't care what she does or where she sleeps. Even when she's in bed with me, she's not there sexually, so what the hell (I finally figured). Nothing to lose.<P>Everyone else. Work calls. I'll get back to you later. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

He's back!<P>RMA - That seems to be the tactic. Pick a fight and then blame the fight on your spouse after you've pushed all their buttons and they've gone ballistic. That book sounds good. I'm going to look on Amazon.com for it, because "solo partner" is sure what I feel like right about now. (Definitely been going solo on the sex for some time now.)<P>SHA - The way we relate to our W's does sound remarkably similar. When you say <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> My W has a way of making me out to be the bad guy, and she was successful once again. I apologized for all the junk I spewed -<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> it could be me talking. This is exactly what usually happens. I've always caved in, only this time I'm determined not to. She can leave if she wants. I'm not saying I'm sorry and I'm not going to be the first one to say, "I need a hug." If she wants to leave she can leave. And know what? I feel much better about myself for standing up to her!<P>TNT, LWB - Yeah, it's amazing. A lot of our situations sound very similar, especially the fights. Know what I think? I think betrayers pick fights and blame them on the betrayed as a way of distracting attention from their affair. They're the real guilty party, but they can't deal with this, so they try and find guilt trips to lay on the betrayed. Well, Sun. I just flat told my W that I was tired of her crap and wasn't taking it any more. She shows no interest in me sexually and nowadays, hardly ever even initiates little affection hugs. I always have to ask. So I figure, if she leaves, what have I got to lose? The woman I courted and married left me a long time ago for someone else and isn't ever coming back. <P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Wex .... . <P>I'm so sorry she picks these fights. What's wrong with people anyway... Hugs.

Good for you Wex, stand up for yourself. Don't you back down one bit. As long as you are reasonable about it, there is no reason you should have to take the heat for the mistakes she made!<BR>When I first told my Wife about my affair, I hadn't the guts to tell the truth, so I had a watered down version of it all planned out. In the telling, I somehow slipped 'out of character and somehow managed to act like, well, a real a$$. I was accusing and harsh and insensitive. I, at one point, had my beautiful Wife feeling guilty for my affair.<BR>Thankfully, this nasty (keeping it clean here, folks) attitude dissappeared very quickly when I realized how much I wanted her and fully committed to keeping her. <BR>In retrospect, I attribute my nastiness to the level of shame I was feeling- about the affair, the deception, the lie about the extent of the deception, everything. I got defensive and that's just plain wrong.<BR>Whatever the reasons/justifications I had for my affair, there is a bottom line. My wife is not responsible for my affair, I am. It was my decision and I chose to be unfaithful instead of doing what I knew to be right. <BR>I think the level of shame betraying someone brings on is very difficult do deal with and some people handle that in some not-so-positive ways. I don't think any of you should let yourselves be blamed for the affair. Nor should you allow yourselves to be stepped all over or mistreated IN ANY WAY!!! The fact that you haven't "thrown the bum out" (male or female) and are willing to try to work things out is proof enough to me that you deserve WAY BETTER than you have received. I know my Dylan does, and have resolved to make sure she gets it!<BR>No more doormatness for you! Any of you. I know there are sacrifices you are willing to make to recover from this and help your spouses recover too, but this should not include unfairness from cheating spouse, there has already been enough of this!<BR>I'm trying not to be judgemental, and am not promoting lovebusting, but you, as betrayed, have some healing to do, and that won't happen if the wound keeps getting salt rubbed in it. Your self esteem and self respect have already suffered enough. time to put your foot down; fairly and squarely.<BR>Just my two cents, (they're Canadian, so you can't buy anything with 'em, but take 'em for what they're worth)<P>Deut<BR>ps, punk rock, eh? what band, just out of interest...

Rancid, I hope.<P>What er you doing spying? Worse, getting caught? You've got to be like a cop, man. Never bring it to trial until you have EVIDENCE. Photos and stuff. Otherwise, the judge (her) will throw it out of court.<P>That said, if you know you are right, protect your boundaries.

Hi, Wex, I just got here. Everyone's right. This situation has been H*** for you. <P>Not surprised you got really angry. <P>Anyway, just wanted you to know I was thinking about you.<P>Just do what YOU feel is right.<P>Lori

Wex,<P>Dude I read your post and laughed because I too on Sunday got a little mad with my wife. Not total loss of self control more just a direct approach about how I felt for once. No yelling screamin etc. I just told her I was way tired of being a doormat etc. I thought we had turned the corner 6 weeks ago with discovery of EA. But we are right back to where we were a all this year.<P>I am with you it is time to change tactics somewhat. If you are playing basketball and zone defense is not working you go to man to man. My wife even admits that I am being nice and have changed. Just does not know how to get everything back. Can't offer any advice other then I am with man and feel your pain way bad

hi wex, just some ideas to think about. Do you have two bathrooms? If so, just use one of them and your wife the other. Or you can learn to pee sitting down. Or get her a little pair of slippers to keep inside the br door. SHe can slip into them to go to the toilet and then slip out of them before she leaves the room. Problems solved. She will jsut have to find something else to scream about.<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited December 02, 1999).]

Thanks, everyone, for your continued support. Don't know how I could have gotten through this so far without MBFers helping me along!<P>cl - LOL on the "pee advice"! Alas, we only have one bathroom (and its tiny at that) otherwise I would use a separate one. But what ticked me off so much was that I had carefully wiped off the floor before she used the toilet. It was just a false accusation because she wanted to start a rumble. She has slippers she usually wears, don't know why she wasn't wearin' 'em. I do refuse to pee sitting down, to much work and it would be just one more example of caving in to her bogus demands.<P>Zip - Thanks for the sympathy and support. It's tough. I've tried everything, including being as nice as humanly possible for extended periods of time. Not letting her pick fights, patiently putting up with her crap and emotional bullying. Nada. Nothing. No change on her part. As to our fight last Sun., I didn't go out of control. Raised my voice but didn't scream and yell, didn't call her bad names, didn't stomp around or slam any doors on my way out. Just said my say, basically about her affair being the root of all our marital troubles, and left. I think this is why I feel somewhat good about where I stand now. Always before, when I screamed and yelled, I mean really RAGED, I'd always feel I needed to apologize. Now I don't feel that. I meant what I said and said it in as reasonable a way as I could, given how angry I was feeling.<P>Lori - Thanks. And I DO feel that what I'm doing is right. Even then it's hard to stay on course, but I feel like this time I will. No more apologizing for telling my W how I really feel and what I really think. Take care.<P>nonplused - Agree about that. I was pretty stupid to do what I did and get caught, although I'm sure she's aware I've been spying on her for quite a while. (She just never caught me before.) Yeah, the only real way to go is to hire a P.I., which I'm saving up for.<P>Soulloss' exH - Those are some really useful comments and they helped me understand a little better where my W is coming from. I can see a lot of her behavior in your description of how you acted. I really admire you for having the change of heart that allowed you to look at your behavior this way and change it. Wish and hope my W does the same, though I'm still not seeing any signs of it. She just continues to bluster and bully her way through all my attempts to talk about what's really wrong with our marriage, which is her affair. And so, I get angry and say what I have to say in a loud voice, which seems to be the only thing that gets through. BTW, the name of the (all male) punk rock group is Clutch Grabwell and they are a hoot! (Esp. whacked-out trombone player - yes! - and lead singer who is way WAY out there! - I watched a groupie attach herself to him while he was belting one out.) So, of course, my W starts calling me "Clutch" after we get home. Funny, yeah, okay, but it also helped me resolve never to touch her again unless touched by her first (she's made a few good grabs on me too on occasion!)<P>Janie - ALWAYS love those hugs! Thanks.<P>Further regards and blessings,<P>--Wex