My ex seems to be. The other day I had to pick my 8 year old up at school because he was "sick". It turns out that he was upset. He cried for his dad all the way home, wanting him to come back. I decided that he MUST have some counseling and contacted my ex about it. I asked him to split the cost with me. His reply was "I can't afford it." Our divorce agreement states that he splits the doctor bills with me. I told him how upset our son had been and also that I thought part of the problem was that he had made the kids meet the OW so soon. He told me we had been separated for six months and he couldn't understand why the kids weren't over it. He also said they would have to get used to her. He showed no emotion over the pain our son was in at all, while I was in tears. I even told him that I couldn't understand why he wasn't concerned about him, that he acted as if I was talking about someone else's child. He had no reply. After all that, knowing our son was hurting so much, he didn't even call for 3 days, and then he didn't even ask if he was doing better. I am going to get counseling for my son, so I don't really need advice on that. My question, is this denial on my ex's part? Or does he really have no feelings left for any of his family? I know we are all still in pain, is it possible that he has really worked through all this in such a short period of time? When I see him, he is alway expressionless, he comes to our son's ballgames, sits alone, speaks to no one, never shows any expression, doesn't applaud or anything. It's like he's a robot. Is this a normal phase for a betrayer and does it last? I don't see happiness, or sadness, I see NOTHING. Can they completely shut down?<P>Thanks<P>AD

Well, I'm no help. The other day my H said that one of our kids was not a happy child - but apparently assigned all the blame for that to me. The kids have all been sick, yet he has not called or emailed to see how they were doing. He didn't contact them on Christmas, or their birthdays, unless he happened to be seeing them that day.<P>He has one emotion - anger.<BR>

Just an idea...<P>Could it be the "shutdown" of emotion is the minds self preservation instinct protecting the consious mind from the terrible pain they know they are creating and the family must endure?<P>Even if they won't or can't admit that they are causing the pain, the subconsious knows and may be using this method of self protection?<P>Just a thought... I have no knowledge to base this idea on...<P>Keo

Nellie,<P>I know what you mean. My ex seems to have lost his anger and now feels nothing. I think I preferred the anger, at least I knew he was feeling something.<P>Keosha,<P>I have thought that myself. I call it denial, I can't believe someone could hurt his family this way and feel nothing. I wonder if they stay that way?<P>AD

AD<P>Yes, get help for your son and perhaps the counselor could speak with your ex. This way it will be coming from a 'neutral' third party.<P>My H was also 'dead' to what was going on around him and I think the OW played it to the hilt. Sometimes it is better now, and sometimes not, but I know that my H loves his children. IMO your ex is feeling guilt that he doesn't want to deal with so he just acts as if nothing is wrong. This is unfair to his son but he cannot see, or doesn't want to see, his part in it. <P>I think they do shut down, mu H did anyway. They just don't want to deal with it <P>Hugs.

RCoaster,<BR>Thanks for your reply. I do feel that he doesn't want to deal with it. I am just afraid that he will stay this way with the kids. Does your H show any emotion now? In "Private Lies", Pittman talks about emotional incongruence. Do you think while the affair is so hot and heavy this is how they live with themselves?<P>AD

I understand where you are coming from. My 16yo daughter is in counseling trying to understand this divorce, and why her dad left family for another woman. I have stressed to ex that eventhough it has been two yrs since divorce, she is still struggling. He also thought I was making too much out of it, and that I may have been creating some of the problems, since I had such a hard time accepting what has happened. The counselor met with him and my daughter together three different times. Although she cannot tell me what goes on, I do know he is in a lot of denial at this point and tries to trivialize the situation. The counselor wanted to meet with us to discuss our daughter and I assured him there would be no discussion concerning the divorce or our problems, but he turned me down stating he would be too uncomfortabe, because I always make him feel guilty, and I always end up crying and then he feels terrible. I had hoped we might be able to somehow salvage and rebuild our marriage,but I lose hope everyday. He is disengaging steadily, with the OW's encouragement. He had a voicemail I could use to discuss the children, and last week I was informed he had to disconnect it because she was giving him grief over me having that access to him. I have permission to call his house in an emergency only. Luckily, my daughter is 16 and can call whenever she wants. Thank goodness my other children are all adults. I hope it will get better for you, but my ex, is distancing himself more and more.

db713,<P>I hate what you've gone through, but I'm glad to hear from you. I feel out of place being the only divorced person on this board. I don't think they will ever warm up again unless the OW is out of the picture. I wish they could see what they do to their children. Isn't it amazing the nerve of these OW? You share children with this man and she wants to interfere with that. If she is that insecure over their relationship, how will either one of them ever be happy?<P>Thanks<BR>AD

I think it's even worse than this. They don't want to hear the problems because they feel incapable of doing anything about them. I remember one time, shortly after separation, that my son broke his collarbone. I was toting around a newborn, without formula or diapers, trying to deal with this problem, running to doctors and x-rays. I was frantic. When I finally came home, I was shaking. I dropped two dishes and they shattered. My husband came by to "help" that night. I remember thinking about my circumstances - newborn, new house, broken collar-bone, about to finish my maternity leave. The thought that hit me was "thank God I didn't have twins. I'd be dealing with that too on my own".<P>I tell this story to make a point about depression/incapacitation. I truly believe that no matter what we're going through or the kids are going through, at this stage, they guys are INCAPABLE of doing anything differently. They are turned off emotionally to protect themselves from themselves, really from their guilt. Aside from extreme cases (Nellie, I have no idea what drives your husband), I think this has to pass eventually.

I agree totally with what distressed is saying. It still amazes me how they can be so indifferent to what is going on around them. All I know is that I am not the same woman I was prior to my divorce--thanks to God and my friends.

already divorced -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>does he really have no feelings left for any of his family?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a really good question, and I think thus far you have gotten some pretty good advice on this question. I just wanted to share an incident that happened with me which demonstrates this idea.<P>After my W left me, filed a restraining order against me, and basically destroyed me court, I finally got to have my first visitation with our D. We spent our allotted 4 hours at the park, where my D did not want ot even let go of me while she played. She was 4 at the time.<P>Anyway, the time came when I had to take my D back to my W. It was all I could do not cry as it was, when my D started crying. These wer tears of shear pain. Not the tears of a child who is not getting thier way. She kept beggining my W to get into our car and go home with daddy. This went on for over 10 minutes.<P>There I was standing in the middle of a parking lot, trying to comfort our D, as I myself was crying so hard I could hardly breath. Not only did my W not answer our D, but she did not even hold or try to comfort her.<P>No matter how long I live, I will never forget that day <P>God Bless

Distressed,<P>I think you are right. When I was in tears and telling my ex about my son's pain, he kept saying "What do you want me to do?" I told him that I felt he should give the kids some explanations for all this and he is totally incapable of doing that. He admits that he didn't handle this whole situation well, but makes no effort to improve relations with any of us. Has your H shown any emotion at all?<P>Thanks <BR>AD<BR> <BR>Empty Shell,<BR>These cruel memories will last a lifetime, won't they? Even if they don't care about us, how could they stand to see their children in such pain? How are things with you and your wife now?<P>AD<BR>

AD,<P>My H did finally get past the 'dead' stage. He woke up to the fact that not only was he hurting me, but <B>mostly</B> his children. <P>Today was an okay day for me, and that's all I ask for right now. I think your ex just needs to work through his guilt. Was he this way before your split? If not, then you must hope that he will at least see the pain that his absence and withdrawl is causing his children.<P>I wish I could reach through and embrace you, for I know that we all need {{{{{HUGS}}}}}

RCoaster,<P>He was nothing like this before we split. I had no clue anything was wrong until I caught him in his affair. Before he met her, he was a loving husband and father. We went to church together for years, he even taught Sunday School. He always told me how much his family meant to him, now he has turned everything around and acts like he was miserable and our marriage was a mistake. I don't even know what to believe anymore. Of course, he says the OW has nothing to do with all of this. He was such a soft-hearted person, I never dreamed he could be this cruel. Thanks for the support, I know my situation is different from others on this board, but it helps to see that my case is not unique. I don't reply to other posts much, because I can't understand any of this mess. Was your H eventually filled with remorse? I really appreciate you all for reaching out to me.<P>Thanks again,<BR>AD

I can't believe I lost my whole post to you!<BR>I'll try to start over, maybe I was being too long winded... but I'm only typing with six fingers....<P>I was saying that I don't know if he was<BR><B>filled</B> with remorse but I have seen him cry over what he has put them through. This has taken three years though, so I don't want you to feel it will happen overnight. Since it has been 'only' six months, it is only my opinion that he is just still feeling too guilty to see past the nose on his face. (or some other appendage) He wants his decision to be the right one and is trying not to face the consequences.

RCoaster,<BR>Are you and your H together now? I saw my ex cry at the beginning of all this, but mostly he was cold, distant, and angry. At first he seemed so happy and excited over his affair, now he just seems withdrawn. He is practically living with OW now, I think the affair is at its hottest. Has your H's affair cooled down? Do you think reality has hit at all for him? I was just wondering what sort of evolution he has gone through.<P>Thanks <P>AD

Yes, we're together - again. We never divorced, but came close (I filed). And I will say again that I really don't know if this has been the best for my boys. I don't want them to think that this is how it's done. <P>In my H's case there were tears at the beginning too. Then the 'dead' stage. He didn't call often and I felt he just expected me to pick myself up and get on with it. The affair was probably the hottest at that point. They were busy doing their own thing and partying away. They didn't have time to think of anyone else. But reality did come around. He found that the things that attracted him at first weren't all that great when he had to put up with them every day -- he did <B>not</B> like it when she decided to party at his house while he was away.....well, I thought, what do you expect? and I was not afraid of saying it to him either. <P>I hope I am helping you with this (?) Right now, as I said, I have my good days and my obsessive days. I can only hope that your ex sees how much he is hurting these innocents.<BR> From what you have said about his former self I think that the day will come. <BR>

already divorced,<BR>The behavior you explain is common coming from either a betrayed or betrayer. It only depends on whom ended the relationship. The person who ends a relationship tries to cut the other person off emotionally in any way they know how. <P>If the betrayed ended the relationship, they are often just as cold towards the betrayer, or even more than cold because they have the moral high-ground. Not all betrayers give up on their kids, but those are usually cases (in my experience) where the betrayer ended the relationship with the OP and tried to save their marriage. I know of one betrayed person who more or less relinquished their responsibilities towards their child because they couldn't deal with the OP, and just gave up.

already divorced -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How are things with you and your wife now?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Things are a lot better now. We were seperated for six months. We have been back together for a little over 18 months. We have had our ups and downs like most everyone else here, but all in all, we are doing very well.<P>God Bless