Alright, I'd like some thoughts on this. I went to see Cider House Rules last night (excellent, by the way) and there's a scene where a couple gets involved in an inappropriate relationship and gets into a discussion about "wait and see" and "doing nothing". One of the parties says "well, maybe if we wait and see long enough, or do nothing, maybe someone else will make the decision for us and we'll never have to take responsibility for a decision".<P>Anyway, this is hardly a new topic to me. I'm a "decide and act" type that's been doing things my husband's way, "wait and see" for the entire duration of the separation, now 17 months. During the marriage, he used this "wait and see", I used "decide and act", and he kept quiet. Decisions were made in a relatively timely basis but both of us were resentful (me about his lack of participation and him about his lack of participation).<P>So what happens when two people use the "wait and see" style? As near as I can see it, when those of us who were formerly dominant in a dominant/submissive relationship refuse to be dominant, there's a void. There are two submissives and no decisions get made at all. No problems get solved. That's certainly what I'm experiencing.<P>I can't force my husband to make a decision and I can't even make him respond to my letters, offers or suggestions, never mind sit down to talk things through (forget about POJA, that would require a personal conversation first and I'd have to force him to have that, a LB). He has no trouble talking to me about his work or sports though. Anyone have any ideas on how to turn this around?<P>As a brief update, I sent him a letter around the first of the year and he's been much more attentive and responsible since then. He's watched the kids while I was away (he volunteered), even the toddler who he's ignored her entire life. He's started to lose weight. He sent me an e-mail saying he got my letter and was working on a response, even said "I'm certainly not ignoring it". That was on January 10, nothing since then. He's more responsible, but still completely impersonal. The thought has occurred to me that maybe he's even found another OW that he's changing for. I don't know. He just doesn't seem to be able to follow through on anything related to our future, a divorce, or a reconciliation, nor is he able to even talk about it at ANY level.<P>Any words of advice for an old-timer like me?

I have no ideas on this one, I am going to watch this thread tho because I have the same questions. I have also learned that I can't make him talk to me - drives me nuts too. <P>Okay, advice for us anyone?

I was typing away when you submitted your post...I wish I had some advice. I am a take action person. What I have had to decide today after only 4 weeks (my H affair has been going on for the best I can tell close to 6 months) of my learning, that I am not someone who can handle a separation. I know that he is with the OW...and well I just can't deal with it. You are a stronger woman than I waiting 17 months + I am sure. There is no way I would wait any longer. It isn't fair to you or your children. What is he waiting for? From one take action person to another...Start the proceedings. Let him know you need to move on...<P>that is my 2 cents worth...but I am also in a I've had it frame of mind...sorry.

I don't know either, just wanted to let you know I am watching this and offer you my support. Maybe if I saw the movie, I could understand too, but I can't dare go to any movie just yet. I hope you get your answers you are searching for. Will be watching.

Distressed,<P>You have helped me so much that I wanted to reply to you, but I don't really have any good advice. I didn't wait, I filed and now I regret it. My ex had to make no effort at all, it just made the choice for him. I would say for you to take action only when you are completely ready to move on without him in your life. As long as you still have some desire for reconciliation, hang on. I work with a lady who did nothing for almost two years with a conflict avoider and suddenly he decided to come home. Is your H still involved with the OW?<P>AD

Thanks to all for your support. Unfortunately, I know I'm not alone in this position. It's tragic.<P>Cpickel, I understand your recommendation and teeter on the edge of filing for divorce probably half the time. The other half I say, why? It's not like I'm going anywhere or have some other person to marry. How exactly am I damaged by waiting? My strategy has been to wait out the affair. I'm doing that consciously, but I do get impatient. It's taking forever. Plus, I have to listen to everyone's negative comments about what I'm saying about myself by doing this.<P>As for what's best for the children, I have to say that I think the current path is. In fact, that's probably 80% of the reason I'm waiting. My husband and I get along great, and that's great for my seven year-old son. My daughter hardly knows him but she's too young to care (19 months). I've analyzed myself to death. I definitely DO NOT love or respect my husband at this point, but I think I'm capable of doing both again if he ever returns to normal. I am convinced that his behavior is so far deviant from the "before" state that it cannot last forever.<P>AD, to the best of my knowledge, he's still with the same OW, but he doesn't share anything so it's hard to know for sure. I think if he had something good to tell me, he would. So I have to assume they're still together. His behavior of late is baffling me though. Something is driving a change but I don't know what it is. It could just be my letter, a feeling with the new millenium that he should get his life in order, or a new other woman altogether (although that doesn't explain his improved interest in the kids and his greater helpfulness to me, but might explain the weight loss). Here's a man who gained 50 pounds, starting from a normal weight, during my Plan B time from Jan. through May last year. Now he's lost about 15 pounds from the first of the year.<P>What's he waiting for? Well, my opinion is that he has been waiting for me to act "in character" and take care of the divorce for him. In a sense, I think he feels trapped. He's unable to do it himself but he sees that I won't either. I don't know what's going on with him and OW, but I'd bet even if it turned bad, he'd have a hard time breaking that off too. They work together and see each other every day at a job he loves, yet they're totally undercover. I actually think he might get involved with another OW in an attempt to get rid of both me and the current OW (shows you what I think of him right now).<P>Keep commenting. Maybe together we can hit on something new.

Distressed,<P>Could it be that he would like for you to ask him point blank to come home? I don't think my ex would ever be able to ask me. Is there any way you could calmly ask him if he has reached a decision? I don't understand about their weight, my ex has gained about 30lbs., but if he is in emotional turmoil I don't see any sign of it. He is also involved with someone he works with, but they are out in the open since we are divorced. I am afraid since they work together this will never end. How long has it been since you discussed personal issues?<P>AD

AD:<P>The last time we had a significant discussion on personal issues was Aug. 17. He was an emotional wreck and cried the entire time. He also showed warmth. He took my hand several times. He even apologized. I had asked him, in writing two weeks before, to share his decision with me that night. Of course, there was no decision. But I was able to get him to reluctantly and unconvincingly say "yes" to a direct question of "will you file for divorce" after working him over for half an hour. He didn't file, just what I expected to happen.<P>Then, on October 31 (Halloween), I followed-up again. I had e-mailed him earlier in the week and asked him if he would find some time that day (since he was coming over anyway) to talk to me about what's going on. He tried to duck out after the trick-or-treating, but I coerced him to stay. I asked him if he was still seeing OW, he said yes. I asked what was going on there, I got a "what do you mean", and no information. I asked him what he was going to do about us. He said "after my budgets are done on Tuesday, I'll file". I said "why are you going to file". He couldn't answer the question. After that, he said he would "think about" counseling with me and he heard and seemed to accept some points I made about not needing to be "totally sure and in-love" before you go for the first counseling session. Of course, he hasn't filed or gone to counseling and it's now been another 3 1/2 months.<P>So, October 31 was the last time anything personal was discussed between us. It was maybe 10 minutes total that day, and an hour and a half in August.<P>Since then, it's all sports, work, kids events (but not kid problems) and stories about the people he works with, sometimes the family. I don't bring it up, so it doesn't get talked about. But I did send an extremely personal letter at new year's which he did read and seemed to affect him.<P>Being honest about it, he hasn't voluntarily engaged in an open discussion about what he's doing/thinking/feeling in nearly two years. The few we've had have all been initiated by me and to varying degrees have been under duress.<P>Like everything else, I have opinions about all of this. I saw enough in August to believe that he's an emotional time-bomb. When he lets himself feel what he's done, it kills him. So he does everything possible to block it out. But on days like that, I know that the sensitive, caring and emotional man that I lived with still exists, he's just buried under alot of protective gear. I don't know how to get that gear off. I think he's going to have to suffer tremendously in order to deal with what he's done, and at some point he will.<P>My objective now is not to get him home. It is to get him to go to counseling with me, and hopefully separately as well. I want the problems fixed before he moves back. I know myself too well and I wouldn't tolerate his running off to the OW and being unaccountable to the family while living here. I just couldn't do it.

Distressed,<P>Has your H told you he doesn't love you anymore? Has he said he loves the OW? I know all that really means nothing, but I don't know your whole story and I was just curious about his reasoning on all this. Does he live with her? I know you have mentioned before that they are still underground with their relationship and I wonder if that is helping keep it in the fantasy stage. My ex was always much more emotional than I was, he cried very easily. I have seen nothing lately to see that man, but surely he is still there. I know he thinks he is in love with this OW and seems dead to me and to the kids. Does your H act as if he misses his family? Does he ever contact you on his own?<P>My ex also has to be forced to discuss anything personal. He will not voluntarily talk about anything concerning the kids. If I talk to him about trivial topics and in a neutral manner, he will be very friendly, almost excited. If I bring up anything important, he turns as cold as ice, and is in a big hurry to get off the phone. Do you think this shows the same pattern your H is in?<P>Don't you wish we had a magic formula?<P>AD<P>Ad

Already Divorced:<P>When he left, I got the "I don't know" answer to the question of whether he loved me. A year ago when I uncovered the OW, I asked him if he loved her and he said no. Neither of these topics has been brought up by either of us in the last year. In his conflict avoiding ways, any answers he would give couldn't be trusted anyway.<P>He is emotionally detached not only from me, but from everyone we knew together. He is completely dead to our daughter and seems content to be a periodic Disneyland dad to our son. He will not talk about our situation or what he's doing to anyone - not his parents nor his brothers, all of whom are close to me. He has dropped all our common friends.<P>He doesn't call just to talk. Most of our contact is e-mail. But like your husband, he's very receptive to light and fun talk and to doing fun family things together. He has a great time with us at a theme park or water park, for example. I really think he enjoys being with us, so long as I don't touch upon an off-limit topic.<P>To the best of my knowledge, he doesn't live with her. I know she keeps a separate home, but I don't know how much time they spend together. I did notice that she pays part of his phone bill. I haven't been to his apartment since October '98, so I don't know what's there. I think my son would comment if women's stuff were there (and be very upset). It also would be very awkward for her to be moving out during my son's visits, which are now every other weekend and Tuesdays. By the way, every time my son goes over there he asks my husband if he's coming back. The answer is always "I'm thinking about it.".<P>The OW is the complete opposite of not only me, but him. We're both caucasians, have graduate degrees from good schools, from educated and wealthy families, great careers, with a great house, cars, etc. She's hispanic, high school educated, older than us both, and works as a supervisor on the plant floor. He has not introduced her to any family members or friends in the year and a half they're together.<P>It sounds like we're dealing with nearly exactly the same thing, although your husband's is now out in the open. My husband was also unusually sensitive before this happened.<P>Are you open to trading e-mails with me? I'm solarcalc@hotmail.com<BR>

Distressed,<P>I had to see what you posted when I saw your name.<P>What can I say??? Your H and mine are carbon copies. My take is that these men never really made any tough decisions at all. Steve Harley calls it the "clay pidgeon"...we do all the work and put things in front of our H's and at least mine, shot them down one by one....yours too, either by saying or doing nothing or not agreeing. <P>Maybe we are all in limbo because our H's do not know how to make decisions, plain and simple, and no other reason. They are away from us, because this scenario is the one that we are allowing...they don't have to make a decision because we aren't forcing one on them, and even if we did, they know we know they can't make a tough decision by themselves. These guys lack total confidence.<P>You are like me...we are in high responsibility jobs that require us to make decisions each and every day. We have been running the house and keeping the family organized and everything humming for our H's for years. <P>I think this: we have 2 options...to sit here forever waiting for them to make a decision which they can't, or to decide for ourselves. The problem is the only decision we can make is to wait or to move on. There is no decision or choice that we can make that will bring our wayward H's home and want them to work on the marriage. I am virtually to the point of filing for divorce myself. <P>All I can tell you is this...whatever you have done for these past 17 months has not brought you the results you desire. Why continue them, Distressed???? That goes against logic...to continue to do something that you know doesn't work. If you chose to stay in the game here, at least come up with some new approach. I do not believe your H is just going to wake up and come around. I do think you got some positive results out of the heartfelt letter. But, he never followed up on that. Now, I would recommend some other action that might be totally unexpected by your H that could also illicit some response. This is the "180 degrees" that is described in Divorce Busting and the "Do the Opposite" that is described in the Susan Page book. <P>If you continue as you have been for the past 17 months, then in another 17 more months...you will still be disconnected from your H. I think that some of us have H's who just aren't going to come back no matter what. I am firmly convinced that my H only stays peripherally connected to try to keep me int he game...it feeds his ego big-time to think of 2 women vying for him, his attention and his love. I do not beleieve my H loves anybody but himself. He has become majorly UNAPPEALING to me. I do not believe I am in love with him at all any more. I do not feel any respect whatsoever for him and I also see the man as a coward, which is the least attractive thing in the world to me.<P>You mention that you don't feel in love with your H, too. But, you mention that if he could come back as your "old" H, you feel you could regain those feelings. Well, maybe I could, too, but I am somewhat doubtful. But, I think that would be more plausible with a H who was running after us, declaring his love for us, begging our forgiveness and telling us what a big mistake they made. Neither of us have that at all.<P>How can you recapture those feelings if you can't even get the guy to have a talk with you???? You would have to be willing to do all the work and you don't even have the love and respect feelings right now to back it up.<P>I wish I could do better than this, but I can't figure it out myself. I guess I will close by saying what I said a bit earlier in this post...try something differnt, Distressed. The same old isn't working for you and you have nothing to lose. If you are initiating all the contact...STOP. If you are only telling him the good stuff about the kids...give some of the bad stuff, too. Don't insulate him form reality. If you have avoided talking about your relationship...try to bring it up again and do so without the grilling. Try anything that is different form what you have been doing.<P>I am really pulling for you. As hard as this has been fo rme, I can not even imagine how hard it must be for you with a toddler that your H ignores....how sad for all of you!<P>Hugs and prayers.....<P>Roll Me Away <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

RMA:<P>What can I say? I feel I've already tried everything different.<P>I spent five months in Plan B last year. During that time, he literally never saw our baby, not once. That's also when he had the big weight gain.<P>I've tried Last Resort and didn't pursue at all. He never called and became more distant. We did nothing together as a family and he had no interaction with our daughter aside from the two minutes when he picked up our son every other weekend.<P>I've tried Plan A. I sent him chocolates. Bought a rafting trip and made all the arrangments for him and my son. Invited him places. Cooked him dinners. Gave him champagne when he finished big projects. He showed up and enjoyed himself at all these things, but still kept the OW.<P>The only thing I haven't tried, at least since the first couple of months, is getting in his face about it. I haven't been disrespectful and have stayed completely away from topics such as "how come you don't love our daughter". It just seems like this approach would really backfire. Harley kept emphasizing the need to make him feel safe and comfortable when he sees us. He does. Those few talks with him have been scheduled in advance with me sending the topics to discuss at least two weeks earlier. It just seems that whenever he feels pain, he runs in the other direction.<P>RMA, I've been working under the Harley theory that there's only one real problem here - the affair. That until it breaks-up, there's no hope for the marriage and that whatever I do in Plan A carries little short-term benefit, but influences whether he'll decide to return when the affair is over. That's why I'm still hanging out here at 17 months with the current approach - a no pursuit Plan A. Harley said to give it two years. I don't plan to go beyond that.<P>But still, I know exactly what you're saying. I've come very close to filing for divorce. I've seen two attorneys and have the unsigned retainer agreements in my briefcase at all times. I too view my husband as a coward, also a weakling (at least now). I didn't used to see these traits in him, but they are in the current version. It is true, however, that he was always the clay pidgeon. I did virtually everything in the marriage and for the kids. He was there for the playing though.<P>Thank you for the comments. I'll think some more about them. Perhaps I should stop trying to manage his relationship with our daughter and think about myself in this process. I just hate that she doesn't have a relationship with her father without me arranging it. It's so unfair to her.

How about a mix of both? Wait and see, at times, decide and act when it needs to be done?<BR>Even before the affair we worked on a mixed basis, some things I could wait and see what happened, some I needed to act right away. The same with my H. The problem was that because communication wasnt at its best, mixed signals were given. Now, after one year in recovery we're back to the same general idea with the difference that communication is great and things work great.<BR>During the affair, although communicatin started to improve, we acting pretty much by ourselves. My H seemed to be impulsive at that time, and acting more than deciding. I again used a mix of both. A general atittude of wait and see, together with many decisions and actions when I felt it was the best solution.<BR>I'm not sure if this helps, but I find that a different perspective usually gives us more options and ways of doing things.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<BR><P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Distressed,<P>Good morning and Happy Valentine's Day!!!<P>Ok, I see that you have two problems here, not one, although they are somewhat linked.<P>I see the affair/lack of meaningful relationship between you and your H as one problem and the lack of a relationship between your H and your D as a second problem. I am sorry, but I am going to ask you this question anyway: Are you hanging on so much due to wanting a father for your daughter (her father) more than wanting a H for yourself??<P>The two do NOT necessarily go hand in hand. It is possible that your H would come back to you and NEVER bond with his daughter. On the flip side, it is possible for your H to eventually bond with his daughter and never come back to you.<P>I understand the principles under which you are operating. But, I think our H's are a little different breed than most. For the average person here, I would say that the marriage was somewhat troubled before the affair (lack of intimacy, lack of communication, lack of mutual respect). This is consistent with Harley's approach that the wayward spouse has unmet needs and finds those needs met via the OP. So, in order for the betrayed to "win" the wayward S back, the betrayed ID's the unmet needs and starts to meet them and either immediately or eventually, the betrayer sees the changes and comes back to the marriage, getting his/her needs finally met.<P>In my marriage, prior to my father's stroke, my H and I got along fantastically. I do not think we even had a so-so marriage...really, both of us say we had a GREAT marriage. Then something changed....my Dad had the stroke and the cascade of problems and deaths that ensued....I see the problem NOT one of unmet needs in my marriage, but one of inability to cope in my H. I am willing to bet that this is also true of you, your marriage and your H. Basically, you guys had a great marriage and then something happened.... <BR>maybe even the birth of the second child, your daughter?????...and your H was unable to cope with whatever pressures he was experiencing (real or perceived) and he bolted just like mine.<P>If the above scenario is true, then the classic Harley principles might not work for us, because we are not dealing so much with unmet needs per se, as with the emotional immaturity and instability of our H's.<P>This leads us to a different game plan. We have tried PlanA and PlanB and tried to pursue and not pursue and all that crap. How can we make our H's grow up emotionally and mature enough to accept responsibility for their actions and to look life squarely in the face and rise to the challenges it presents????? WE CAN'T. God knows, this has been the HARDEST part for me to accept...that we CAN'T do a thing about it.<P>Our H's need to find and get in touch with that part of themselves all on their own. I do not think my H is man enough to do this. He would rather run from life and live on the periphery rather than face some home truths about himself and get the help he needs to grow up. You know, my H even knows he has emotional problems...he has said as much to me with statements like "I know this is immature, but it is how I feel." when he was talking his "center of the universe" crap to me, which is another great example of his emotional immaturity.<P>I think the thing that bothers you the most here is the lack of relationship between your H and your daughter...more than the lack of a mature and intimate relationship between you and your H. It is possible for you two to be divorced and for you to continue to make it easy for your H to have a relationship with your children. You could be divorced from him, move on and perhaps find someone else to have a mature relationship with, and still encourage and foster his relationship with the kids. I feel like you will ALWAYS have to make it easy for him, IF IT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU FOR HIM TO BE A PART OF THEIR LIVES. If you stopped making it easy for him, he would interact less. My H is the same way. He only interacts with the family when I make it super easy fo rhim to do so. <P>Some people might tell you that you should not do that so he will grow up and take responsibility. Well, the problem with that thinking is that you can not force him to grow up and be responsible as a father. Again, if it is improtant to YOU for him to have a relationship with the kids, then keep doing those things you are currently doing to facilitate his relationship with them. Make it easy fo rhim so at least he will stay connected to them.<P>As far as the marriage, only you can answer that part - as to how much longer you will wait. I don't see him coming home to you, bar some unforseen crisis in his life that could potentially jar him into action. I know this happens sometimes, but even that might not be enough for him to come home.<P>I think that a few of us here...you, me, Nellie...have H's that have real emotional issues and THESE ISSUES are the heart of the problem, as manifested by the affair, and not necessarily, our failure to meet some emotional needs of our H's. Not to say that we couldn't have done better and still can learn more, but the core issues here are a little different than most of the folks here are dealing with.<P>Thinking of you. Hugs and prayers.....<P>Roll Me Away <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Distressed,<BR>Happy Valentines first of all .<P>Lately I feel like such a turncoat to MB when I post. With the 7th separation I hit the end of the rope...and climbed off. You responded to Guard, my H. He seems to have had a complete turnaround, and although he's moved home off & on and your H has not, he's been really confused as to what he wants. And now, I really don't know if I have the emotional resources to cope with a reconciliation, plus, if he goes back to what he was, I might just kill him (figuratively...I hope).<P>I guess the advice, or warning, I want to give you is that when your H has been the consuming center of your life...and the marriage has been your goal, you might discover that if/when that seems possible that you've buried a lot of pain. Certainly your H has given you a lot to deal with. My counselor calls it "shrapnel" the bits and pieces of pain, lies, betrayal, deliberate cruelty, neglect that come to the surface.<P>I'm in more pain with a Plan A husband than I felt when he was awful. Because I see that he could have treated me decently...he chose not to, for whatever reason--his depression, the OW, his guilt, the "you're better off without me, Lor"...<P>Anyway, as you are in this waiting time (or deciding to take action time ), make sure you are taking care of yourself emotionally, spiritually and physically, processing your anger and hurt. I thought I was, but rather than a gaping, bleeding wound, it became a surface healed abcess.<P>All my best,<BR>Lor

I agree that some of the betrayers have emotional problems that are the real heart of the problem. Actually I think that in all cases where the betrayer has not made any attempt to discuss the perceived problems in the marriage before the affair, the basic problem is with the betrayer, with his/her inability to cope with stress or a propensity for conflict avoidance or whatever. After all, the rational response to perceived problems in a marriage would be to try to fix them.<P>I have read that a father's relationship with the children is often primarily through the mother, and when that link is broken, the relationship falls apart. Even now, I suspect that my H and I spend more time talking about the children than he spends talking to them. Several people have told me that I shouldn't bother trying to encourage the relationship between the kids and their father, that he will eventually realize what he has lost. Unfortunately, the real losers in that case would be the children. It is a loss that is not possible to make up years later, when they are adults.

I'm not sure what to say to any of this, except to state that I'm more down today than any time in the last six months. This situation is surreal.<P>RMA, your questions are good. Let me be clear. This is nearly ALL about the kids best interest, not about my best interest, or at least that's what my logical side says. I'm really not sure emotionally where I stand. I've numbed myself for so long to personal pain that I'm not really sure what I "feel". I'm just so committed that I don't allow myself to be influenced by emotions. I don't suspect I'll know for sure until there's closure.<P>In reading through my own posts, you hit on a key point that escaped me. Whenever I judge the effectiveness of what I've done, I've used interaction with my daughter as the metric. So, Plan B was no good since he never saw her, LR was no good since he only saw her at briefly every two weeks at pick-up, and Plan A is better because I arrange family outings so he sees her. Nowhere, ever, do I talk about my needs. What the he** is wrong with me?<P>Unfortunately, I see no way to keep this up through a divorce. The divorce process itself will be acrimonious (there are huge financial complexities). I doubt he'll want to hang out with us nor that I'll be able to stomach him. After divorce, I can't see me planning my weekend time around him seeing the kids - I'll want to establish a life of my own with other potential relationships.<P>Logically, I know that I can't sacrifice my life to make sure my husband is a father to the children. I have to put a time limit on it.<P>I had been with this man for sixteen years before the separation. I would say it was a very strong marriage until the last two, when a gradual distancing occurred. He was in some sort of depression the year before separation. He made a few attempts to talk to me about it, but it wasn't productive. All he would say was that he was unhappy and concerned that I didn't love him. But he wouldn't work with me on doing anything differently, even though I suggested many things. He seemed to lose the ability to set goals and develop plans. Everything was about how he "felt" and therefore couldn't be actively addressed. It frustrated me and I got angry, which was the wrong move. <P>I agree that there really isn't anything I can do about this. I've already tried everything. It is on him. All I can do is give him the time and not cause trouble. Either he will or he won't. But I'm not yet ready to conclude this is hopeless or that there's no way he's ever coming back, or that I won't be able to love him again. Maybe I'm just being stubborn about this since I have no evidence to support my views.<P>Lor, I think your assessments are correct. I really don't know what I feel. For my own protection, I've numbed. I don't normally get hurt by what he does anymore. I expect him to be a coward. Like I said, when it comes time to end the relationship with the OW, I half expect him to take the coward's way out and find another OW to get him out of it.<P>I do keep busy, travel often and go out alot with friends and family. Still, I know there's a gap in my life. I am not loved, nor am I giving love to a partner. Some Valentine's Day.<P>Nellie, this dropping of the kids is the biggest mystery of all to me. This was a very dedicated and involved father. How can he not love an adorable little toddler? How can he be OK with the scant visitation with our son, who was the center of his world? How can he accept being just a Disneyland Dad, with no participation at all in education, health or other issues with the kids? I just don't understand any of this. But it is clear that they have major emotional problems. Why don't they try to fix them?<P>I really appreciate everyone's comments. I think I'll go crawl back into my hole now.<BR>

Distressed,<P>Well, I feel bad now that I've made you feel even worse. I am truly sorry for that.<P>I can tell you one thing form your posts...you are NOT ready to give up on this marriage at this time! That is coming across loud and clear.<P>If you aren't ready, then don't do so. But, you say you have set a time limit and maybe by inference I think it is the 2 year mark. That is 5 months away, right? So, you need to begin to think about what your future will be like if he does not change in the next 5 months. The things you outlined in your last post are indeed the realities you will have to deal with should things not be resolved in the next 5 months, or at least, some glimmer of hope coming forth to keep you in this game.<P>This is alot of pain and heartache for you to have to deal with, Distressed. I pray for you everyday, because you are such a good person, a smart woman with such a lot of strength and fortitude. I admire so much about you and I don't even really know you. I hope that this has not brought the supressed pain back up, but in effect, you will have to deal with it and process it at some point in the future, my friend, no matter if your H comes home or not.<P>I hope you know that I care about you very, very much. Maybe you won't have a lover to share Valentine's Day with, but you have those two precious children - so you will spend the day with those you love and those that love you as much in return!<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Distressed,<P>I tried to e-mail you and couldn't get it to go. Mine is tbcjmur@wingnet.net.<P>AD

Distressed,<P>I am so amazed at your patience and dedication to your marriage. I think that only you will know when you have had enough. I was scared to death to move on, but know now that it was the best thing for my self esteem. I have self respect now. My h is much like yours and a conflict avoider. Getting the divorce is killing me, he will not supply my lawyer with any information and therefore I am still not divorced and I filed last March. I have moved on in a relationship as well and that has been the best thing I have done also. I am now cherished and respected and loved by a kind man who is not afraid of committment, who is looking for that and feels as strongly about infidelity as I do. He was betrayed by his ex-girlfriend also.<P>My h will never be the father I want him to be. He will always be the disneyland dad. He was in our marriage and it has not changed. He is so emotionally juvenile that he goes to "raves" with our 18 year old son and probably drops acid with all the other "lamers" that go to stuff like that. It is hard to respect a 38 year old child. I have let go and thank god for that. I was the one who paid the bills and carried the brunt of the responsibilities and resented him the whole time. Now I do that and I don't worry or think about his issues. I give him calendars with his dates for visitation, he misses them alot. I don't ever expect that he will be there. I always have a back up planned when he drops the ball. I am there for my children, and I provide stability and a home base that they feel safe in. <P>I admire your ability to hang in there. I just couldnt any more and am so thankful to be out of the relationship and creating a new and fresh life that isn't with someone who is so emotionally dead. I hope that you keep posting and I am always praying for you. Stay strong and keep getting out. Resolution will come one day. It isn't always on our terms. <P>Gerri