Hi friends,<P>I have had an incredibly rough weekend, those of you who know me, can probably understand why.<P>I went to church yesterday. You will NOT believe it but the sermon is on GUILT. I learned a lot, really wish H was there or I could have recorded the sermon. I did take notes. I was the only one in there balling and jotting down notes, I probably look like a crazy woman in there.<P>Here is what was said. Now this was in reference to Isaiah 55:6-7. I am not really religious, only gone 6 times in a row, since my crisis began. And I think some of this applies more to God than anything, but it still had a deep meaning to me. <P>He went on to say that guilt will never ever go away. There are things to do to avoid it, but it is always there and it ALWAYS has a way of surfacing and you must deal with it whether you want to or not. Almost like if a Betrayer marries an affair partner then goes back to the original spouse. Or when the affair dies the death we all strive for.<P>Ways that guilt can be buried is no fault (when no one will take blame, or you say "its not my fault"), rationalization (i did it because..), comparisons (HMM I took it as W or OW), suppression (hide your true feelings), distraction (affair), isolation (abandonment), go into a shell (depression) or escapism (a quick fix). Now my notes are fuzzy and teared up this is just the items I was able to write down.<P>In listening, and through the wonderful sharing that some "betrayers" have done on this site, I am thinking that maybe, just maybe my H does in fact feel guilt for what he has done, because he is using all of the above in his daily tactics. WHen I say all, <P>Just looking for advice, has anyone read good books that examine this, does anyone know or have an opinion on the guilt, or do you see any of these things displayed in your own current situation.<P>At that moment, sitting there, I felt like the pastor was talking to me. Telling me that it will be ok. He also said that the only one who can PARDON the bad behavior is the one who the offense was created against. I took this to mean in my situation that if I ever forgive my H, that is when his guilt can subside. I know it also meant forgiveness from God, which as I get more involved in church am seeing that my H will one day face an even worse fate if he doesn't wise up.<P>Whether you bring the religion into it or not, please share your thoughts on guilt, and I especially like to learn from those who have "betrayed" because you help me deal with this.<P>Also, I am facing a lot of guilt too. Now in the Private Lies book by Dr Pittman, he states that the affair is not the fault of the betrayed, that the betrayer chose to do that instead of put the effort into the marriage. The Harley principle, seems to put the blame on both although some of these stories including mine, I don't see the exact need to put half of the blame on the innocent betrayed partner. Some instances yes, but not all.<P>Thanks for your input today. Trying to keep calm and get through the day.<P>

Hi lonelymom. I'm sorry your weekend was not the best.<BR>I do believe guilt as a lot to do with many things that happen during the affair. Some people, like my H are extremelly stuborn, and after getting into it, he unconsciusly knew it wasn't anything to be proud of, but wouldn't admit he was wrong. He was feeling guilty, and fighting it. In doing so, he would try to justify what he was doing in any way he could, and when he couldn't find a way to justify it he would use many of the things you say there. Rationalizing the affair is extremelly normal, nobody wants to be doing something wrong, so there has to be a reason for what they're doing, they look for every single negative thing they can find in the marriage, to say:I'm doing this because...he also wanted to believe that after leaving everything would be fine and normal. Many times he would tell me "so and so did it, the kids are fine with it, why wouldn't ours?". I think it is human nature to avert guilt. After doing something wrong there is some sort of defense mechanism that tries to justify the actions.<BR>NO matter what, it is important to understand what our spouse is going trough in order not only to help but also to prepare us for some of the common things we might expect during the affair.<BR>Finaly I want to tell you that many cases in here, including mine, looked hopeless, like there was no way things would be solved. And in the end, everything worked out. Keep focused on your goals and follow whatever plan you decided to follow. Be flexible and ready to change things you see aren't working . Keep in mind that it's a very confusing time for your H and do your best not to force any decisions, give him the power to make his own decisions - sometimes they feel powerless, like they're being pulled from so many sides and have no input on what's happening in their lives. ANd look for any positive signs, those will recharge you and help you to continue.<BR>Have a great week.<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

{{{{{{{{lonelymom}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I had a feeling you would be here this morning and I just wanted to say:<P>Happy Valentines Day from someone who cares for you. I know it is a hard day for all of us, and I just thought you might need a little lift. <P>I think God spoke to you yesterday and your sharing of the message has help me this morning. <P>RC

Hey, <BR>It's me again... <P>Ah, dear sweet guilt... I felt huge guilt all summer, and it made me withdraw.. which only aggravated the unhappiness in the marriage... which made it less easy for me to end the affair. It caused me to act totally out of character all summer. Looking back, it's a wonder we have survived this ordeal.<P>Anyway, if I thought I had a tight relationship with guilt over the summer, I was in for a big wake up call upon disclosure. I originally gave my W a bullcakka story about the affair, totally minimizing it in an attempt to minimize the pain she would feel over the betrayal. (and hence minimize the guilt that I would feel) Well, that blew up in my face after a week or so. I came totally clean and then came face to face with a shame so deep and tearing that I could hardly believe it. In fact there were times that I didn't think I would survive the crushing physical pain in my chest- like a tight knot of horror, emotional pain so concentrated it became real. (I'm sure there are lots out there who know what I mean)<P>See, once I came 'clean', and started telling the truth, I had to come face to face with the profound pain that I had caused the woman I loved. Here's a weird thing... after disclosure (the real one) my guilt shifted and became a deep and poignant shame... it also grew, like a cancer into other areas of my life. I began to look at the kind of parent I was, and person too. <P>The way I dealt with it was to embrace it. It seemed like my inner horror at what I had done and the kind of person I had become was my last chance at redemption as a human being. <P>There were times I wanted to run from myself so badly that I could barely stand it. But I hung in there.<P>I would like to take the opportunity to differentiate between guilt and shame. I picked this up here, at MB. I still sometimes used them interhangably, but drawing the distinction helped me understand it, and myself, better.<BR>Guilt is more like a concern about how others will view you and judge your character and actions. Shame comes from within and is based on your own judgement of yourself, or, if you believe in God, maybe how He views you. According to this definition, guilt is destructive. It causes you to lie and act out of character to try to cover up your sins. Shame on the other hand is like an angry or dissapointed guardian angel, saying "See what you have done, you KNOW this is wrong - Shame on you!!!"<P>As for laying blame... I personally think it's a waste of time. It blinds us- giving us instead a crutch to lean on that helps us avoid seeing the situation clearly as a whole. Judge not lest you be judged. This is a very wise statement, aimed directly at blame layers. Not to say that you haven't the right to be unhappy, even outraged at anothers actions, especially in your case... I just personally beleive that your salvation will come through understanding, and laying blame will take you off that path.<P>"Everything happens for a reason." This phrase has been tossed around so much that it's miss-use is starting to make me sick. My OW used it as a justification for our entanglement, and I've read it hear and there and it drives me nuts, because it's usually spouted off by people seeking absolution from their actions. I say SEEK THE APRIORY! As much as I hate the saying, things DO happen for a reason. Chemical reactions happen because two ingredients are mixed. A bomb goes off because a fuse was lit. Things don't 'just happen'. <P>Be careful in reading this... I'm not implying your should start laying blame on yourself!!! All I'm suggesting is that you try to step away from your pain and try to understand more about how and why this horrible thing has happened to you. It will lessen the pain and give you insights. Further more, by understanding the roots of the development, you will be in a better position to impact it. Much the same way a chemist studies a chemical reaction and it's components in the hope that his understanding will give him the power to control it. And if all else fails, you will have grown and gained enough knowledge and experience to avoid something like this in the futur.<P>Hope this helped a bit.<P>Deut<p>[This message has been edited by Soulloss' exH (edited February 14, 2000).]

Kat - Thank you for sharing that with me.I too feel this is hopeless and wonder for how long I can do this.<P>RCoaster - Thank you for the warm wishes, probably the only ones I'll get all day! <P>Deut - Thank you also for the interpretation. I wish my H would tell all. I don't know how long this has really gone on. All he admits to is he "found out her name" 3 days before xmas? What does that mean. Now he took the job in March of 99, we were wonderful, fine perfect til mid October early November, so thats the only rough estimate I have right now. I hope my H learns some SHAME and GUILT real soon. Because his happy chipper mood is getting me down. Also, when I saw him he put on some of the weight he lost. He was a little overweight in the middle when we were together, then when we split, he lost 30 pounds and looked good. He looked like he was putting it back on again, wonder what that means?? He cut his hair real short and I think he now looks almost awful. I am not happy with the changes he is going through at all. Plus he won't really look at me in the eye either. <BR>

This is hard for you because you are trying very hard to see the good in your husband. If he were feeling guilt, then you could justify the love you still feel for him. You can't know exactly what he is feeling unless he tells you. <P>I agree that the best possible circumstances for healing (for both betrayed and betrayer) is for the betrayer to show remorse-to help the betrayed, and for the betrayed to forgive-to help ease the suffering of the remorseful betrayer. <P>Pittman drives a hard line, and to some extent, I think that is good. It is too easy for people to make up excuses, and lets face it, we all know of marriages that face much harder crises than some here and both partners managed to remain faithful. On the other hand, Harley's approach seems to involve a little more interaction, which I tend to favor more than Pittman's method because I believe that Harley's method promotes long-term health of the marriage. Pittman's book is ok too, but I think it tends to help the betrayed heal but doesn't address the marriage at all, really. I think Pittman's approach is something more like...find the right person and they won't cheat cause they are more stable, or well adjusted, or whatever, like somehow the dynamics of marriage are outside an individual. Seems kind of short-sighted to me.

To The Student, <BR>Hello, I haven't been here for a while..the last time I read on this forum you were leaving...I guess your life has led you back.<P><BR>How are you doing? Are you better? Do you still have questions about your husband? And by that I mean the ones you asked me last summer, that I didn't get back to you on? You wondered how he could say he loved you so much one day..and the next say he hated you and wanted you out of his life?? Those are the questions I mean. I know how I felt when I had those same feelings...it is more complicated than can be explained in a short note.<P>Good Luck,<BR>Disgrace99(H)

To Disgrace