<BR>As my pals here know, we have been doing great. Recovery has been going well and counseling has been a big part of that. However, a small thing really set me off last night, and I'd like opinions about it.<P>We were in a counseling session, and were discussing the lists of strengths and weaknesses that we had compiled. In the course of the discussion, h. shared that my disinterest in decorating and furnishing really bothered him. I pointed out that this is an area of great strength for him (related to his profession), so I just learned to let him make the decorating decisions. He said "But the woman should do that, she should be really good at it." <P>The counselor asked if perhaps he was comparing me to the OW, who is also in his profession. He said that Yes, she has excellent taste and her house is beautifully furnished.<P>So I said, "Well I hope she is good at it, or she'd be in trouble professionally. But, can she cook?"<P>"Yes, actually, she is an excellent cook."<P>"And how do you know that?"<P>"Because she cooked for me a couple of times."<P>"Where, in a hotel room?"<P>"No, I went to her house"<P>"Where were her kids?"<P>"Sleeping"<P>"I thought you only went to her house once"<P>"No., I told you we only had sex there once. "<P>Session ended and later at home I said "I was upset because I thought I knew all the times you had been together. Are there other 'dates' I don't know about?"<P>"Yes, of course, but you know about all the sex. I never said I had told you about every time we spent together. What good would that do?"<P>"Were there other 'dates'?"<P>"Yes, we often went out for beers after work. Many times. I told you it wasn't just about sex."<P>For some reason, this new information is as upsetting, if not more, than the detailed information I have about their sex life. <P>To think of all the times we were at home waiting for him while dinner got cold....And to realize that Miss Perfect cooked for MY H. It just pisses me off....Dumb???What is your take on this? <P>I have been weepy since last night. He is trying to help me cope, but I know that it is frustrating for him that I am allowing ancient history to upset me.<P>Liz\Pearl<P>------------------<P>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR><p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited December 01, 1999).]

Liz,<P>I understand, believe me. The normal daily things of life can be more intimate then sex to a woman. Don't be too hard on yourself for reacting. It seems like the OP just moves in and takes over our lives every place they can. Sharing anything with our spouse is an invasion of intimacy.<P>This honesty business is really hard. The devil is in the details. Sometimes I wished I could wash out all those details I at one time so desperately wanted. Its a catch-22, your damned if you do and your damned if you don't. I will pray for you as you battle this new information. But know I understand what your feeling.<P>------------------<BR>eyes wide open<BR>

Liz- I am smiling, not because it obviously bothers you but because I am not alone! I have had some very simular feelings! It seems as though we are doing really well, good clutch at recovery and doing fine and then little things like statements he made send me off.<BR>I think these little statements hurt more sometimes because you've become de-sensitized to the hurt and pain the affair caused you and then suddenly you find yourself right back at that hurtful point again! It hurt worse because you believe you've gotten beyond it and then suddenly your there again!<BR>Anyhow-you know your doing ok because you can talk about it this time! It's not a big hidden secret. I thought I was going backward the first couple of times I experienced these feeling but now I am beginning to realize they are just part of that recovery process and some issues I need to deal with, at least now I have the skills to deal with them!<BR>God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>

Taj-'The devil is in the details' Yes! <P>My h. has asked me why I feel compelled to ask questions when I know the answers will hurt. He has promised to answer my questions, but warned me not to ask if I couldn't deal with the truth. <P>Somehow, knowing that it wasn't 'just sex', but was a real relationship rooted in friendship and sharing really hurts. I want to believe that I am enough for him...If he wanted a drinking pal, he should've found a guy! <P>Actually, since recovery, he has asked me to join him for a quick drink a few times, so that is progress. I have always hated bars, so I suppose I set myself up for hurt in this area. I am making a major effort to be his Number 1 choice for recreational companionship, something I never cared about before. <P>chick's - You are so right about the progress. It helps to know that others experience these setbacks. It just sort of whacked me in the back of the head, because I didn't expect such benign information to hurt so much. Thanks for the encouraging words. We ARE making progress -- We are now being honest for the first time in sixteen years...<P>Thanks, guys, you are good friends.<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

POGP,<P>There are two issues here. The first is being surprised with the new info. Of course any new surprise is unwelcome. I think our need to know the complete blow by blow story even in past tense, may be linked to controlling the knowledge. There you have the details of the affair in some box pushed as far out of the way as your mind will allow and then here is this new item, out of the box, bursting in on your brain. Now you got to go catch it, look it over and walk over to that box in your mind and stuff it in....and when you do, those old memories try to jump back out of the box.<P>I'm exhausted just thinking what mayhem might be going on in your brain <P>Your H, in his defense, may think "what difference does this make?" I don't know if you specifically asked about the sexual episodes or if he segregated the sexual from the non sexual himself. Maybe he thought the sex was the more damaging to his marriage and the rest was secondary. Plus so much contact over a period of time would be almost impossible to recreate. I couldn't. Not that it was OK to have her cook him dinner, it wasn't. He probibly is having a hard time understanding why it was such explosive knowledge to you.<P>The other issue is the origional "list" and the paradigm your H is in concerning what a woman should and shouldn't do well. Is he usually a bit rigid in his thinking? Are the roles in your marriage traditional for the most part? And by the way, is he a ace mechanic, handyman and does he neatly fit all the descriptions of a "man" that you could come up with? <P>You may know I am a great believer in looking at your good traits, flipping them over and there are your worst traits. Look at your worst traits...and there are the inverse of you good traits. <P>Not knowing you, if you consciously stepped aside in the furnishing department, you were being gracious enough to allow your H to what he does best and cares most about. If it was more subconsious, it may have been you felt "on stage" and didn't like the feeling, so you passed it off. If it really isn't your thing at all, you may have been grateful that your H was good at it himself and you contributed in your marriage or your home in different ways.<P>All of us have paradigms and of course we could barely get through the day if we didn't make assumptions and have some structure. However, once we understand that we all have different gifts and use them to compliment not compete with one another, then we deserve a kick in the head if we say anything as stupid as your H said last night.<P>Now according to Harley's methods, I guess you should be ordering all new furniture and accescories today. (Hey, not a bad way to make a point) And of course if it is an important need, some hybrid of domestic support and an attractive spouse, maybe, then it needs to be addressed.<P>However, unless you have unlimited funds (in which case I'd go for showing him what incredible taste you really have), before you take this too much to heart, I would explore how important it really is to H, especially if this is truly not your thing.<P>If it is a product of tradiotional thinking based on masculine/feminine roles that he was indocrinated with, maybe you can purge it out of his brain. If it goes deeper, then you both should examine why it is important and how you can meet that need within your own talents and passions.<P>OK...off my soapbox for this morning. And all this with only a few sips of coffee.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL - No time to post, I'm off to Ethan Allen!!!!!LOL<P>As for unlimited funds, I do have a Platinum Discover card...and no job (go figure).<P>You are so right about needing to put this info. in a box (labeled s**t I didn't really need to know). <P>I really do feel that we are progressing in a mostly forward direction, but as Taj pointed out, the little daily things can be very intimate.<P>As for mayhem, remember my old username?<P>Lizzie Smith took an ax and gave the OW's tastefully decorated home 30 whacks!! And then a few to the OW for demonstrating her culinary abilities to MY H.<P>Well, time for Bible study and prayer. <P>thanks fhl,<P>Liz\His Pearl of Great Price (who doesn't enjoy the grit that produces Pearls.)<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Liz,<P>I never knew the "dark side" to your name! Lots of giggles on this side. Thirty whacks sounds good to me. Definately would change the decor!!!!! You have to have a sense of humor to survive all this junk. Hey, You're gonna make it after all.

I find in my case that any information which comes forth now (6 months after discovery) is devestating. I don't know why. It is like all of the details I got from my H and the OW (my "friend") during the first few weeks after discovery are stored in my brain. I have analyzed it, put it in a time frame, and cataloged it away. I can still tell you times, dates, conversations, songs and many, many details. (I had chats and emails saved). I have destroyed all physical evidence now because I tended to obsess reading them over and over. There are still terms of endearment that my H used for me that I will no longer tolerate because they were used with her.<P>One of the first questions I asked was how many times were you together. That seems to mean (Clinton style)...how many times did you have intercourse. Over the next week, I found out there were many other times with heavy petting, oral..you know the story. I was furious that these times were not revealed initially. <P>Anyway, I digress....I have all of this information, as I said, cataloged and analyzed. I can deal with all of that now. BUT when a new piece of information arises, I am thrown for a loop. It messes up my order. Do you understand? It takes a few days to absorb the new and put it in its place. And, yes, it can be the most insignificant detail that hurts the worst. To know he compimented her cologne (which I went out and bought and sprayed all over his pillow and me. Don't know what I was trying to prove there!) To know he ate her lasagne...just stupid things drive me crazy.<P>I don't know what I am really trying to get across here but I wanted you to know that new information is upsetting. Just chew on it a few days, put it in with the rest and go on. <P>H and I are doing pretty well six months into recovery. There are many triggers still, but I try not to overreact or LB. I cry in his lap at times with no words spoken.....but those times speak the loudest.

FHL<P>I just reread your post, and am now in a more serious frame of mind, so I'll address the paradigm issue. Funny, because much of what you said is exactly what the counselor said last night (so I guess you have a potential second career).<P>We have set a goal of looking at both of our presuppositions about male/female roles in marriage, as well as trying to 'throw out the lists' and work with the real people we both are. <P>No, he is not a great mechanic, no, he is not a spiritual giant (very important to me before our marriage), no, I don't have great color sense...Heck, I even hate shopping malls! (He thinks this is peculiar since his mother loved to shop.)<P>I always hoped that being loving and kind and a pretty decent cook was going to cover over my weaknesses -- yet now I discover that he thinks I am moody and irritable, and, that she is a 'great' cook.<P>Last night he did say "I think you misunderstood what I said last night. I didn't mean that you couldn't measure up to her in all areas, just the area of decorating." <P>When I pointed out that his list of my strengths sounded like he was looking for a new dog (loyal, sincere, empathetic), the three of us laughed (therapist, h, me). But it really hurts that I came up with 15 strengths for him and he described a golden retriever...<P>Oh well, I am moody today (not even PMS, either)<P>Thanks for listening,<P>Liz\Pearl<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

taj - Now that you know my darker side, kind of makes you hesitant to join me for tea and Bible study, huh <P>zombie, thanks for letting me know that I am normal. Our time frame seems to be about the same, the end of April was their 'last time', and confession was in August. I too, learned of blow jobs and petting (in the office, ick) after the initial information about the 'sex' which, Clinton style, meant intercourse. I found out the times and places of the "sex" in a letter he intended to send to her h. out of spite when he learned she had another OM besides him.<BR>(Fine pillar of a woman, she).<P>TTFN<P>liz\pearl, whose house is very messy and dirty...off in a cloud of cleanser!<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

I don't understand why, for most of the time, the betrayers aren't totally honest with their spouses. We've been in recovery for 9 months now. But still...occasionally, I hear something that my H failed to mention before. He took it upon himself to withhold info from me to protect me. Excuse me! It think he withheld the info to protect himself! ANyway, everytime that happens....it sets the clock back to ground zero. I do understand what you are going through and it is difficult and is painful. Unfortunately, these things do happen. It's part of the process. Don't be surprised, while in recovery....that you find out more things that he failed to mention before. Please stay strong and don't lose hope. You can get through this. Best of luck to you.

I think the image of any domesticity that took place is disturbing because it is indicative of a RELATIONSHIP and not a moment of stupidity. My H took MY crockpot and fixed her supper...he also trimmed her trees on a weekend I was out of town...those 2 images pop up at least as often as sex.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

NoTrust - I agree that new info sets the clock back, but I don't find that it goes all the way back to zero, more like three steps forward, two steps back. My h. does really mean it when he says he withholds things that will only hurt - he will tell me things that make him look horrid, but only if I pry.<P>Lor - You are exactly right about the domesticity - it means she was a real person, a substitute wife to him, and that is what hurts so much. I prefer to think of her as just a receptacle for his sex organ, but she is a person that he loved. That is what hurts most.<P>If I had discovered that my crockpot had been used, I would have used it as a suppository on him! And as for her Christmas tree....well, you can just imagine where I'd stick that on her!<P>oooh I am mean today!<P>sorry, <P>Liz\POGP<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Liz,<P>I just had to jump in here again after your Christmas tree comment! Chuckle,Chuckle! I have a bigger item to plant. My H took the OW camping in our RV. Now that would definately widen the road!!!!<P>I threw out every item of significance I could for months, sold the RV, my daughter even threw out toys "the wonderful weasel" had bought for my grandkids. Its like you have been violated when they try and permeate your life with their presence. See why I say I understand exactly what those daily intimacies do to your heart. One of the things that hurt the most is that he stopped by her "den" every morning so she could pack his lunch! Ugh!!!!!! Now I'm venting, but it feels ok, please forgive me.<P>------------------<BR>eyes wide open<BR>

I think I minimized your pain on this. I guess I thankfully don't have much in this department because my H's affair was so brief.<P>I do know he met her kids at her house. She had a 20 year old and a 10 year old (like our daughter). That made my blood boil, although it was nice they were in the house I don't think H is brazen enough to have done anything with them there. I also found on a shopping list Ginger Spice. I thought it may have been a shared joke, but when I finally asked him, she was having a hard time finding it for her daughter for Christmas, so my H would look when he was shopping. (gag) I'm getting worked up now! I never thought to ask about home cooked meals, but I doubt the brazen hussy b**** is much into the Martha Stewart thing. (Don't worry, I pray for her when I'm not calling her names) I actually do not know her name.<P>Anyway, POGP, I understand how that new info is so upsetting.<P>And Lor, if your H ever messes up again, I can think of a thing or two you could cook up in that crock pot. May Loraina Bobbett has a tasty recipe?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

taj, fhl, you guys are so bad! Here I start out in a positively ripping snit and you guys make me smile! That just ruins my attempt at being *itchy completely (my h. has said that he loved the OW's mean streak and missed my old sarcastic humor).<P>So I get going on a roll and you guys put me in a good mood -- no fair!<P>Bible study anyone? <P>gotta get ready for my night class (and read the assignments for the last three weeks in two hours, oops)<P>Liz\Pearl of Great Price<P>------------------<P>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR><p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited December 01, 1999).]

Gosh, this is all so amazing! I am smiling again, just knowing there's some justification to the emotions I've been going through, just want to know if the box itself is wrapped or not!<BR>The OW was in my house, friends with my kids, ate meals at my table. If I was smart I would redecorate EVERYTHING on him, but I can't we're tooo poor for that. And the dining room table I walk by is his grand parents 1934 special table and is inherited, everytime I walk by I think of the really wonderful meals I prepared for her and how she sat at my table and ate her fill and the next day was taking her fill of my H at the office that I decorated and set up for him, that is one of the painful things I've had to get by. I think that makes things harder, when you know the OP and/or have some association or dealings with them. Then to find out more after putting it into your box and having to repack that box again, whew!<BR>Either way, God Bless, I am praying for all of us!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>