For any of you who might think that I'm some sorta paragon of strength and wisdom, this will surely prove you wrong!<P>Yesterday, my wife and I had an appt with our marriage counsellor. It had been a while because of our schedules and stuff. But anyway I didn't think it was that big of a deal cuz it seemed to me that things were going pretty good for us lately. So the session goes okay, no really big break throughs or anything. This is in the middle of the day, so we both go back to work...<P>When I got home I immediately noticed my wife was acting cold and withdrawn... "uh-oh... what happened now?" what the thought that went through my head. I didn't say anything right away, but waited until later in the evening after our son went to bed, and asked her what was wrong. She started crying and saying that she was feeling bad all over again about my betrayals and what I had done to her; how much I had hurt her.<P>Then we got into this big discussion about how she thinks it's ridiculous to think that she would have any empathy for me in this situation because after all she's the victim. How can it be expected that she would feel sorry for me when I was the person who had the affairs, I was the person who inflicted all the pain on her. Whatever pain I feel, I deserve it.<P>Okay, well there's not much I can say to argue that, can I? That's pretty much a lose-lose argument there, isn't it? After all, I pretty much agree that it's really asking alot from the betrayed to feel empathy for his/her spouse. I tried to explain that I wasn't ASKING for empathy, but it would've been nice, and would've helped towards the healing if she did feel it. But it just came out sounding petty and every thing I said came out sounding like I was trying to make her the bad guy for not feeling sorry for me. Arrgh! Bad bad bad.<P>Meanwhile, as if that weren't bad enough... earlier in the day yesterday I got an email from the OW... I'll quote it here verbatim: "Pure torture. I want to see you but know I can't." It was followed almost immediately by another email that apologized. She was basically feeling sorry for herself and it was a moment of weakness and it will never happen again.<P>Understand -- I've never EVER gotten an email or communication like this from the OW almost since we broke it off in late June. She was so strong about the no contact thing (you should've seen the self-pitying manipulative emails I sent her back then!!). All this time I thought she was over me and getting on with her life. That knowledge sorta actually helped me through my withdrawal. So now I'm saddled with the knowledge that OW is still in pain. Great.<P>Well I'm hoping that all this stuff doesn't get me down and make me slide into depression again. So far I feel strong enough to deal. I've already gone through all the worst of the pain of withdrawal, and I don't really feel those pangs coming back with the contact. That's a minor relief. <P>And I'm sure when I get home from work today my wife will act pretty much like last night didn't happen... <P>I'm not really looking for advice or anything... just sharing my wonderful day yesterday.<P>--andy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>earlier in the day yesterday I got an email from the OW...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>2x4 upside the head for YOU, andy... <B>BLOCK HER EMAIL!!!</B><P>You didn't reply to her, did you???<BR>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited December 01, 1999).]

Did you tell your wife that you communicated with the OW? I would suggest that you do and then depending upon where the email came to get rid of that account. Not to sound harsh but everytime you do this you start off at zero and your wife distrust you that much more.

airheart --<P>Sorry to hear about your really c***** day. I can't talk now. Got to go back to being a responsible employee. I'll try to get back to you later, but...<P>Time to change your e-mail. And, is now the time to demonstrate that you CAN be trusted by telling your W about the e-mail and how you plan to deal with it (ie. reenforce your breakoff from the OW and commit to your W)?<P>Chin up!<P>--keystone

WOW Andy!<P>I feel so horrible...but, I can't help but feel this tremendous jealousy that your OW contacted you. I was just saying to Hum yesterday that although I don't have this need to talk to the OM right now I still have it in the back of my warped mind that one day I will speak to him again or that he will contact me. I, like you, wrote my OP some self-pitying emails and feel that he is going on with his life just fine. Lately I've been reading alot of posters talk about how their spouses OP have contacted them after 8 or 9 months...I'm hoping this won't be me. Will the urge to contact ever end?<P>Okay, sorry...this thread is about you. <P>Anyway, are you going to tell your wife that she contacted you? Are you going to block your email? You say that right now you feel strong enough to deal and you don't feel those pangs of withdrawal coming back after the contact. Do you think that's maybe because you were happy to hear that she still thinks about you? I'm hoping that after the initial shock of her contacting you that you won't start getting those feelings for her again. I don't want to put thoughts in your head...but, I know if my OM contacted me saying "pure torture" that it would be very difficult not to contact him back and I would once again feel that "soulmate" thing.<P>I don't know what to say about the situation with your wife. It does help to get empathy from our spouses...but, it's just so hard to expect. My husband was showing me some for a couple months...but, I think at this point he's sick of hearing about it. Although I'm not depressed anymore I do get my moments and lately I've been afraid to show my husband when I'm feeling down because he just gets frustrated.

Airheart,<BR>OK, as the betrayed, I admittedly have a huge bias.<P>If your wife is trying to be empathatic overall, then having a few set backs on her own is understandable. Don't know how much you actively push her to actively empathize.<P>Just as we betrayeds have a hard time understanding withdrawl, I don't think betrayers can comprehend how insulting and humiliating, as well as painful, it is to deal our mates "feelings" for another person. We shouldn't have to. We didn't ask the betrayer to betrayed us, but yet all of this crap is dropped on our lap and we have to pretend it doesn't stink.<P>Now the reality is, we do have to deal with it, so we do, best we can. But it isn't easy...certainly you can understand.<P>The OW feelings are "not your problem." Of course that is not true because now you see her as a choice and you are actively comparing her with your wife. Let's see, a true love frozen in time by the tragic circumstances of previous commitment vs. a wife who has probibly just about had it with you at this point in time. Hmmm...I wonder which sounds more appealing.<P>Now lets let your mind wander to romping in fields of flowers with the supposed "soulmate" that you have created in your mind, then compare it to an evening at home with all the daily chaos. Hmmm...fied of flowers sounds pretty darn good, doesn't it.<P>Imagine escaping to this place, where the relationship is new and exciting and effortless and all the everyday hum drum and flaws is magically erased. Sounds even better.<P>Trouble is, it is all a lie. Even if this wonder woman is more compatible (which of course no one, including you really knows) you will be dragging with you a whole bunch of garbage. <P>Since you made the choices you have up until this point shows that you want your marriage to work and you probibly see it tied to your integrity.<P>So you could say...geez...the consequences of my actions really caught up with me yesterday...that really sucked...then dust yourself off and continue on your journey, or you could start torturing yourself, your wife and the OW with indecision and second guessing.<P>You decide.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

First off, thanks for your replies so far.<P>I never even thought to block OW's email. I'll look into that. It should be easy to do. It wasn't an issue before cuz I never thought there was a danger of getting that kind of email. <P>I honestly haven't had the urge to "get back" with her or to feel that "soulmate" thing again, which I think is good. I know how bad and rotten it would be to get anywhere near her. Of course I'm thinking of my wife's feelings in this, but really this is a self-preservation thing. I just could not stand the pain of that kind of experience again!<P>A few things FHL said need addressing:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If your wife is trying to be empathatic overall, then having a few set backs on her own is understandable. Don't know how much you actively push her to actively empathize.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't actively push her to empathize with me. We've talked about it before and I said that it would be nice if she did, but that I didn't expect it. She, on the other hand, has said straight out that she is totally not capable of doing it. She doesn't even want to try. Fair enough.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't think betrayers can comprehend how insulting and humiliating, as well as painful, it is to deal our mates "feelings" for another person. We shouldn't have to. We didn't ask the betrayer to betrayed us, but yet all of this crap is dropped on our lap and we have to pretend it doesn't stink.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I understand that. I've said time and again on this forum that I don't have any idea how the betrayed can do it. I also understand that if they somehow CAN do it, that it works. It helps the healing process. That line you said "we should't have to"... you know what that means? It means "I don't have to help you get over this and save our marriage." That's fine, that's certainly a choice the betrayed can make. But what's it gonna be?<P>I pretty much said in my post that I didn't even want to argue about whether she could or should feel empathy for me. How do you think that makes me sound? It makes me sound pretty awful. It's not even a point I would care to discuss with her. It would've been nice if she showed me empathy instead of anger when I was going through the worst of my depression. But she didn't. Oh well.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now lets let your mind wander to romping in fields of flowers with the supposed "soulmate" that you have created in your mind, then compare it to an evening at home with all the daily chaos. Hmmm...fied of flowers sounds pretty darn good, doesn't it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I really chafe at this depiction because it's nowhere near the truth in my case. I fully know quite a lot of OW's faults and I know it would definitely be no bed of roses (or field of flowers if you choose) to be with her. Hey, no relationship is. I never had any misconceptions about how much better my life would've been if I had left my wife and went with the OW. I know that it would've been pretty horrible. No nice house, away from my kid, broke all the time, disrepect from friends and family... Yeah, I knew all that, way before I ever came to this forum.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Since you made the choices you have up until this point shows that you want your marriage to work and you probibly see it tied to your integrity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, I see it as the only choice TO MAKE. The OW is not an option. Even knowing that she still has feelings for me now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>or you could start torturing yourself, your wife and the OW with indecision and second guessing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who says I'm not constantly tortured by second-guessing anyway?! It's a daily battle of "am I doing the right thing?" Long before I met OW I was out of love with my wife. We could go back to the whole discussion of why I ever married her to begin with, but I'm not going there. It's not a question of "should I stay with my wife, or go to the OW"... it's a question of "should I stay with my wife and waste her time cuz I'll never love her?"<P>--andy<P>

Andy:<P>Here's a simple solution that only costs about $11.<P>Why don't you order a copy of Harley's "5 steps to building romantic love" workbook. See if your wife would work with you (and perhaps this counselor as well), to execute the plan for this.<P>You can love your wife. It's just that you're both not doing the things needed to build love. I don't think it's because either of you are incapable---it's just that you lack the knowledge and skills to do so.<P>Order the stinkin' book (if you won't counsel with Steve...). You won't be sorry.

Airheart,<BR>OK..maybe I was a bit too blunt and critical. I guess I sensed that you were actually feeling sorry for yourself because your wife had a hard day.<P>I stand by my statement, that there betrayers can not quite understand how being betrayed affects us as a person...of course I'm speaking for myself. I didn't think I defined myself just by my marriage...even though I believe I would have always labeled family/marriage first, but when I was betrayed, it just about destroyed my sense of self. That was on a different level than just dealing with the recovery.<P>I am a great believer if the betrayed wants the marriage, than fair or not, they have to go on the journey to recovery and healing. However, I don't know how actively I could have empathized with my H in regards to his feelings for his OW if I would have had to. I didn't, thank goodness. <P>Do I remember a post where you cried in your wife's arms? <P>Be careful how much you think another can actually ease your pain, anyway. I think we can give each other support and set an atmosphere of healing, but I don't think we can really actively heal each other anyway. I think that for the most part the betrayed and betrayer are on paralell (spelling) but seperate journeys in healing, but definetely should be on the same team when it comes to working on the marriage.<P>Does that clear it up?<P>One one hand, you say there is only one option and then in your next paragraph you talk about being conflicted. <P>And be careful in your always and nevers. Who knows what is around the next turn.<P>Anyway, airheart, I didn't mean to offend you. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi Andy,<P>Life really knows how to throw punches huh. I had counseling yesterday too and everything had been going OK for alittle while as well but that's because we weren't really talking about our problems, and then in counseling everything gets stirred up again and then I feel depressed. I come out of it think our problems are just overwhelming. But I know they're there and we have to try to settle them. <P>Maybe after counseling, your wife started to re-live some of that pain of you betraying her, and that resentment came back. Sometimes you feel so strong, like your really on the road to recovery and it can take something so small to bring you back down again. I know that discussing what happened is good and honesty is the best, but God sometimes I feel it just puts salt in it and I just want to forget I don't want to talk about it anymore. <P>Do you think that it's still the withdrawal affects that are preventing you from feeling closer to your wife? I know you've been through the initial hell of withdrawal and you realize that it wouldn't of been all wonderful with the OW but now your back to where you were before the affair, the problems in your marriage and your still not that happy. <P>I don't remember all the problems in your marriage but I know that you realize that you would have different problems with someone new, yeah, maybe you might be more compatible, and maybe we both didn't marry the "right" person in the first place but I have learned that doesn't mean we can't be happy in the future with our spouses. Love is a choice right. <P>Maybe bring some flowers home to your wife tonight or pick up a card? Your wife is on an emotional rollacoaster as well and maybe tonight she'll feel differently. Maybe she's just looking for that confirmation that you really care about her.<P>I'm glad that you don't feel those pangs! I'm sure she was probably looking for a response and I'm glad that your strong. Definitely change your email account.<BR>

Andy,<P>Despite your current predicament, I still think you're a source of strength and wisdom for everyone on this site. I dread the type of contact that you received from her. I'm glad you're far enough into recovery that you don't think it will be a major setback and I certainly hope you don't have much depression result from it.<P>I do hope you told your wife so that she's aware of things and can develop further trust and insight in case you are acting down. I greatly appreciate this type of honesty from my husband. <P>As for her giving you empathy, this definitely can be a very difficult thing to do as the betrayed. As you seem to know. I agree that if it can be done in this situation, it would be a bonus, and hopefully help develop further closeness, but it is hard to try to feel the emotions of a situation that has been out of your control and brought so much pain to your life. I am a nurse and usually with patients I try to really feel what they are feeling. With my husband I try to understand what emotions he is experiencing, and this allows me to keep some distance from actually having to "feel" them, which seems to almost cause me more pain for whatever twisted reason. I ask him to just tell me his feelings and leave out the name and details, because that does become too much to deal with. Could your wife try that approach? Have you told her how much you would appreciate empathy from her, but at the same time you want to remain sensitive to her feelings? You probably already have, and those are things that help me with the process.<P>I can't imagine the strength it takes to have the self control and discipline to avoid contact, but I'm confident you have it. In some ways does it make you feel more self confident as you are able to overcome the urges over time? And give you more inner strength to continue on with your commitment to your family? Just curious. Hang in there.<P>Glad I could maybe offer my 2 cents to you after all the insight you've given me!!<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

andy,<P>Setbacks, that's all. Everyone has there limits of "strain" and then something has to give. I see this as a pressure release valve has let some of the strain in "trying" out. <P>I agree with you that she needs to give some empathy. Being on both sides of the fence I will say that it takes two to make it and two to break it. I KNOW it is hard for your W to give empathy to your struggles through withdrawal. I also know that you NEED to know she is empathetic and supportive of your efforts. I agree with you - she has to HELP in restoration efforts. The marriage will not be better without the efforts of TWO!<P>You wonder how so many of the betrayed can forgive and move on - I think some people are just more forgivining than others. Maybe it is a personality trait. I have forgiven my H and the affair is stillongoing. I would totally forgive if he gave up OW and REALLY wanted to come back and work on the marriage. I forgive him if he doesn't give her up - BUT, I do not want a life with him that isn't the whole "filet mignon!" NO chopped steak for me! Funny, but I think H hasn't forgiven me for the EA from 2 years ago. Again, some people are naturally more forgiving than others, I think.<P>Keep your chin up. All this trying and working beats a good man to pieces! You ARE STILL a good man. EVERYBODY makes mistakes and commits sins! I admire how you are trying to better yourself and have a more loving and fulfilling marriage! <P>Roll Me Away<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hey Andy,<P>Just hoping you're feeling OK after the e-mail from the OW. How do you block her e-mails? This is something I am interested in doing. I'm certainly no computer whiz!<P>If you get a chance, read my post about the birthday card.....he's not doing it...YEAH!! He's been reading your posts lately, too. I think he senses some commonality, so doesn't poo-poo your ideas like he does most on this site. Thanks again.<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>