<BR>Hi all,<P>I've posted only a couple of brief missives here before.<P>In brief, my story. I discovered my wife was having<BR>an emotional affair in Sept. After two months of her<BR>lying (you all know the drill), after telling me she<BR>had "fallen in love" with him and "needed to test out<BR>her feelings" by leaving me, blah blah blah.<P>Well, I kicked her out because she refused to cease<BR>contact with her "friend, just a friend, honest" and<BR>said no way could we work things out with him in the<BR>picture. So she came back after a few days.<P>She says there's been no contact, but honestly, I<BR>have seen NO change or ANY consciousness on her part<BR>about what has happened. She evades, ignores, and refuses<BR>to deal with any of this.<P>The affair was obviously a major lovebuster for me.<BR>I kept saying that if she kept lying and ignoring my<BR>feelings in all of this it would damage the marriage<BR>irreperably. I feel it alomst has. I have little or no<BR>feelings toward her in terms of feeling any sort of<BR>love or spark.<P>I feel in some ways that the ole love bank (mine)<BR>has been bankrupted by all of this. I still feel<BR>NO attempt from her at any sort of change or any<BR>spark of awareness about all of this. No sign that<BR>there is any real remorse (all I've gotten were<BR>half-hearted apologies). No wish to even talk about<BR>any of this or work through the issues. Nothing.<P>Note she said she was happy in our marraige until she<BR>met OM. At which point she turned on me, said she had<BR>been unhappy, etc. She NEVER once communicated any of this<BR>to me in our marriage. I've always had to press to get<BR>any sort of info from her about her feelings. I am<BR>very open, and this stonewalling has been driving me<BR>bat****.<P>In short, I am wondering how much longer I can go on<BR>without seeing ANY sort of remorse or ANY sort of desire<BR>on her part to change, to open up to me, to communicate<BR>in any real way with me. Intimacy has been practically<BR>nonexistet throughout our marriage, and I learned to<BR>accept that as something I could live with, because she<BR>has no sex drive, and no real ability to open up and<BR>connect.<P>I don't want any more of this! What was once acceptablew<BR>to me is no longer acceptable. Her constantly marginalizing<BR>my feelings, trying to sweep this under the rug make it<BR>impossible for me to feel any sort of spark, and any hope<BR>for a change seems nearly impossiblt to imagine at this<BR>point. I guess I am feeling like this may lead to me<BR>wanting to throw in the towel on this marriage, thanks to<BR>the deep damage already sustained plus her unwillingness to<BR>face the issues and work through them with me.<P>We have gone to counseling, but counseling did nothing.<BR>I am feeling like this is a long slide into oblivion and<BR>the evntual end of the marriage, as I simply can't sustain the<BR>fiction that there's anything there for me any more.<P>I don't know if I can expect her to change. But the idea<BR>of going through the upheaval involved in dovorcing is<BR>simply too much for me right now, as I feel too fragile<BR>and I MUST be able to remain focused for my job.<P>Any thoughts?I discovered my wife

Suckerpunched,<BR>Does your W know how desperate you feel? When you let her move back in did you two agree on changes that you would each have to make? (Besides no contact w/OP) Was there a plan for reconciliation? Was counseling a precondition? I know that when my H moved back in twice after being gone only a few days each time I was not completely open and honest about my expectations. Guess I was so happy to have him back. But neither time lasted. Your wife deserves to know how you honestly feel at this point. Have you tried the counseling on this site? (Steve Harley?)<P>Just a few thoughts, I know how you feel but take a few minutes to be sure everything is out in the open before making any drastic decisions....<P>Hugs,<BR>Starpony

<BR>I've said, repeatedly, till I'm blue in the face that I need to talk about this, and that she can't continue to ignore my feelings or marginalize them, like she has been doing all throughout this.<P>It's so frustrating to feel like you're talking to this wall. I sense so little from her that this is SERIOUS, that this needs to be fixed. All I get is stonewalling and more clamming up. Yes, I am guilty of lovebusting. I got angry last night because she (again) tried pretending like nothing happened.<P>I know it's important to try to get back to some normalcy, but I can't feel any sort of normalcy when there are so many issues on the table still unresolved.<P>I did give her a list of conditions for moving back in, which included total openness and forthrightness, plus genuine remorse and some form of restitution (so I could see she's serious about fixing things and not just paying lip service to change).<P>So far, barely anything. We usually get along OK, but I am exapserated. This is NOT what I want out of a marriage! I have been true to her since day one.<P>I am still very resntful of all the hurt she caused, and even more resentful that it is still festering because she won't address any of this or consider my feelings or listen to me AT ALL, eevn though she knows that I am feeling desperate, as I've told her many times now.<P><BR>

hi suckerpunched:<BR>it is obvious you are very distressed and hurting right now. i am very sorry for what you are going through. i agree with starpony that you need to be totally honest with your wife about what your expectations are. also, she needs to he honest with you about what caused her to fall in love with the OM so that you can together understand why this happened. you say that she said that she had been happy in the marriage until she met the OM. but you also said that there had never been any intimacy in your marriage. how can can anyone (including you) be happy in a marriage that lacks intimacy? i assume, because you say you are a communicator, that you have all along told your wife that her lack of sex drive, her refusal to be open with you, to connect with you, has hurt you. how has she responded to this (before the OM, that is)? not AT ALL to kick you when you're down (so PLEASE don't take this the wrong way), but you might try to open the lines of communiation in a different way: rather than demanding that she show remorse and that she change, perhaps you could try to find out what needs of your wife's you weren't meeting (whether consciously or unconsciously),therefore allowing her heart to open to the OM. it's obvious she's not meeting any of your needs either (or was she ever), and these are all things she needs to know. either way, i agree with starpony that you shouldn't make any rash decisions until you ask yourself and her some really hard questions. good luck!

<BR>This might sound strange, but sex itself was never that big a deal for me. Sex is WAY overrated, in my opinion, and I have no problem with celibacy. In fact, I will probably go the route of celibacy at some point later in life.<P>Yes, I realize I may sound demanding at times these days. But this has never, ever been the case until all this crap started, though. I have NEVER tried to demand anything of her -- I always gave her great room (ironically, she loves her time to herself, like me, and I always gave her lots of space; then she complained of loneliness when I gave her the very space she said she wanted and said, after the fact, that my inattentiveness "drove her into OM's arms," even though she always requested lots of space. I can't seem to win!). <P>But honestly, I find it VERY hard to try to play nicey-nice when I feel TOTALLY ignored and marginalized in this whole situation. I deserve something out of this marriage too, and all this Plan A business of the betrayed having to dish out lovin' spoonfuls to a spouse who has shown no scruples and total disregard for their partner's feelings reeks of serious bull$it to me right now. I've tried it, and I fail to see how playing "doormat" can lead to anything positive.<P>Sorry, I know that some times it's better to be together than "right," but in this case, I am not willing to continue ignoring my own needs (as she has been doing to me throughout this whole incident) to "win" her back. Just what sort of "prize" will I manage to win back in this case? Someone who has a track-record of deliberately causing pain to a spouse, showing total diregard for my feelings? Sorry.<P>The only thing keeping me with her at this point is that the turmoil of the Big D is too great, and I can't afford to lose my concentration at work, which is about the only thing I have keeping me alive right now other than my spiritual practice.<P>

Hi, suckerpunched. Sorry you're having to go through all this. It does hurt and reaches down to the last nerve.<P>You discovered the EA in September? How long has she been back? And, I may have missed it, I'm a little dizzy these days, but how long had this "friendship" lasted?<P>I don't know, but it sounds like real severe withdrawal to me. And, if she had developed a real relationship (in her mind) w/ this guy, a couple of months is not a very long time for withdrawal, even if there hasn't been any contact - and we all know there's usually a slip-up or two.<P>Have you read "Surviving an Affair". Her inability to deal w/ the situation, avoidance, lack or remorse or restitution SOUND pretty normal for this stage. Question is, since this has been so very hard on you, are YOU ready to see her through this part in order to save the marriage? That's not a bad question. It's one we've ALL had to ask ourselves at one point or another. 'Cause the fact of the matter is, the betrayed has to do all the giving, without expecting anything in return, for a long long time. And it's awfully hard to do that when you've already been hurt beyond belief. I'm not so sure that you can ever really get the remorse and restitution that the situation warrants. Sometimes the best you can hope for is to build something better than you had - and that's not too bad!<P>Oh, well, if you haven't read it, it would be a good bet, I think. Along w/ some others that will help you understand what BOTH of you are going through right now.<P>Best of luck to you.<P>Lori

Welcome <B>suckerpunched</B> to the Marriage Builders - Infidelity Forum.<P>I'm sorry I missed your first few post...<BR>I like to welcome most new MB forum members when I can... (the rest of the folks here will attest to that)<P>I think you know the people here represent both betrayed spouses and betrayers(waywards) alike and the occasional Other Woman/Man/Person (OP/OW/OM).<BR><B>All</B> of us are really here to try and build or rebuild our marriages... and we are trying to use principles and concepts that are espoused by Dr. Willard Harley of Marriage Builders(MB).<P>You've clearly have read <B>some</B> of the information here at this site, starting from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/" TARGET=_blank>Marriage Builder's Home Page</A>.<P>The principles presented here at MB (<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts</A> are what we try to follow...<P>In your case... <B>things</B> are still so fresh in your heart... soul... being... <B>you need to take a few steps back... and regroup</B>!<P>Many of us need to start immediately working on our marriages and a <B>sound</B> understanding of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A and Plan B</A> is crucial! It will be hard (from what I am reading in your posts)... but if you <B>really want to save your marriage</B>... not just <B>be right/righteous</B> you <B>need</B> to consider <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> more seriously.<P>There are situations where an immediate junp to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> is advisable... In your case... it is something possibly to consider?<P>You'll see a barrage of "terms" which you might guess the meaning of... but an alternative is to look up what they mean at this site... Words like (click on them to find out):<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html" TARGET=_blank>Giver and Taker</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>.<P>You'll need to learn more about, not just marriage building... but self building too! <B>For you to understand the principles... slow down a bit.</B> The learning isn't going to happen overnight though... look at the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8100_article.html" TARGET=_blank>Articles</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>Infidelity Q&A</A>.<BR>The real learning is best aided by obtaining some of the books from the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6000_bookstore.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Bookstore</A>... of most important for those who have affairs in progress, or soon to be, is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley. <B>This is the 'bible' for this forum. Get it (as was recommended ASAP).</B><BR>Other books can be very useful as well... like <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>"His Needs, Her Needs"</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>"Love Busters"</A>.<BR>There will be many other good books that the MB people will recommend... take their advice... they've been around.<P>Most of all... you will find <B>compassion</B> and <B>love</B> here. No judging... no demeaning... no malice here!<BR>The people here have all had their lives thrown into a whirlwind of despair, confusion, and sadness.<BR>We've all experience gut wrenching emotions that we though could never exist, in anyone's idea of humanity.<BR>Feelings of hatred, love, disillusionment, envy, rejection, emptiness, <B>deep depression</B>, and on and on...<P>Just the books and facts aren't going to get you through it all... not without <B>support</B>. That's where <B>we</B> come in! <B>We</B> care... because <B>we</B> know how it feels. Believe it... <B>You are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <BR>Come to this forum to vent... to cry... to laugh (a little)... to express your feelings... to advise others... or just to get away!<BR>Your probably going through H*!! right now... don't go it alone... remember... <B>you are <I>not</I> alone</B>! <P>A few quotes form <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A> are in order here for <B>you</B>... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wayward spouses do not necessarily have a history of lying, but their affair turns them into masters of deception. (page 40 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... that doesn't make your W a bad person... she is...like all waywards in... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>An affair... (it) is a very powerful addiction. (page 56 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... as an addiction... you need to consider whether you want to "throw her out of your life"... would you thow her out if she was on drugs?... an alcoholic?... Is this what you <B>really</B> want to do?... Do you think "other" kinds of addictions can be handled effctively by forcing "conditions" down throats?... You say that <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> is "bull$hit" to you now... if you just go on your own way (no Plan A or B)... building <B>will not happen at all</B>! I don't know if you have ever gone through a divorce before... let me tell you... my W is forcing me through one (I'm a betrayed too)... and if you think you're hurting now... wait for the d@mn lawyers and court system... If you think you have no patience for any MB plans... OK... we are simply telling you... slow down... reflect a little... Before you throw, not just your W out, but a great deal of your own self too... read, post and reply a little...<P>There is never any guarantee to save all marriages... life doesn't work that way, unfortunately.<BR>We can, and do guarantee, to give you help... to build back many vital aspects of your life and sanity. <P>Post... Post... Post... Reply... Reply... Reply... READ! READ! READ!<P>I've been speaking in behalf of some dear friends... as well as some complete strangers too..., when I've used <B>"we"</B>!<BR>But... if you're here... join in with them... they <B>will</B> join in with you. <P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 01, 1999).]

Dear Suckerpunched<P>Your post is quite sad and I can relate to how you must be feeling. You mention that you have little "love" or "spark" left for your W. If this is true then this is going to make it even harder for you to accept the frame of mind she is in at present and keep working the issues.<P>I still love my W dearly and there is still love from her towards me despite the involvement of the OM. This love is what keeps me going with the task of turning her back towards me oncee the romance fades with the OM. If I had little left for her I would find the task impossible and let go of the relationship altogether.<P>My only comment is to try and look a little further ahead than the present conflicts. If you believe that you had a fullfilling relationship in the past with your W then it is quite likely that you can make this work again in the future.<P>Don't get too down on the negatives at this stage. I know it is hard and we are all going through it in some way or another.<BR>Regards and best wishes<BR>Fairenough

suckerpunched:<P>I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but by the sounds of your post, you've done about EVERYTHING wrong to recover from an affair.<P>You've demanded<BR>You've threatened<BR>You've punished<BR>You've blamed<BR>You've punished some more<P>Read this website from top to bottom. You're in complete, total TAKER mode. Very bad for the marriage.<P>Your wife had become disenchanted with the marriage prior to her affair. You need to accurately assess which of the following MB "rules" you were violating.<P>Were you failing to protect her from lovebusters?<BR>Were you failing to meet her most important emotional needs?<BR>Were you failing to be honest with her?<BR>Were you failing to spend time with her?<P>Right now, you want your wife to get on her hands and knees and grovel back to you, and "make it up" to you. I promise you that if you don't make the first step here, this is never going to happen, and you will end in divorce. A needless divorce.<P>To successfully restore your marriage, I'd suggest a new counselor trained in Harley's techniques (or Steve Harley himself). You will need to work on YOUR BEHAVIORS first---you can't worry about your wife. You'll need to focus on your weaknesses---eliminating lovebusters, meeting your wife's emotional needs (in that order). You will need to put your taker on the shelf, and learn how to give your wife WHAT SHE NEEDS. Not what you want to give her. <P>If you're successful in doing this, your taker will get all you could hope for, and more. And you will have a very happy new marriage. It's possible, but you're going to have to change your attitude 180 and get to work. And working with someone like Steve Harley (or another good counselor) will give you the coach you need to get through this.<P>Good luck.

Listen K, I do not appreciate the sanctimony about what I am doing right or wrong by YOUR definitions. If you disagree, fine, but I do not wish to be lectured for NOT doing as you would do in a similar situation.<P>I am simply stating that I disagree with the Plan A approach, that I am not at all happy about having to take the suckerpuch of discovering an affair, and THEN bend over backwards to preserve a marriage which my cheating spouse did not see fit enough to value in the first place.<P>If this is tough medicine for you to swallow, too bad. Not everyone places an absolute value on the idea of staying married. I am not a Christian, nor do I hold marriage in the same regard as many who believe that marriage is necessarily "god-ordained" or somesuch. Marriage is a SOCIAL contract, with clear rules. Rules such as NOT lying to your spouse. Forthrightness.<BR>No cheating if monogamy was the agreed-upon mode for the relationship. And most of all, NOT invalidating my feelings, which is really what has set me off so much about her affair.<P>If these aspects of the social contract are not upheld, that is a breach. It is the responsibility of the party in breachb to restore their side of things. That's how this works in the REAL world, not in the Plan A world of "save the marriage at all costs."<P>I am completely uninterested in playing patsy for someonw without the moral fibre to do the right thing in this sort of arrangement. The idea of remaining married to someone who will walk all over you is not my idea of a good time.<P>I''m glad for you you feel a marriage is worth saving at all costs. But that is DEFINITELY not how I see it, and that you feel someone should be happy to play doormat for a spouse who has already shown a willingness to completely disregard your feelings and to walk all over you is nonsense in my opinion.<P>I mean, seriously, I have NOTHING against forgiving their behavior. But I do not need to condone OR accept it from someone I am married to. Period. An affair is emotional abuse of the very worst kind. NSR said that it's an addiction like alcohol or something. Wrong. It is like an addiction to alcohol where the spouse becomes violent after drinking. A drinker who drinks herself into a stupor I can live with and work with and help work through her addiction. A drinker who gets ddrunk and starts throwing kitchen knives I will toss out of the house, no ifs, ands, or buts.<P><BR>

Ummm suckerpunched,<P>Please, no one is trying to attack you here. We have all felt exactly as you do at one point or another. And it sucks the big one.<P>Having said that, what you will get here is support for how sh*tty you feel AND more importantly advice on how to build your marriage back up. If you do not want to build your marriage back - no one will blame you. But we assume that if you are here you have made the decision to try. Behind all the hurt and pain you are in do you still wish to try????<P>Answer that first. Then we'll know how we can help you,<P>Starpony

suckerpunched:<P>Tough medicine to swallow??? Hardly. <P>You came to this forum. It's called "MarriageBuilders". The splash screen states that you ought to be familar with the concepts on the website. It's pretty clear that you don't get the essence of the MarriageBuilder principles---it's not about being a doormat. But it is about not punishing your spouse. Even when they've done something horribly wrong. Because punishment never, ever builds love. You'd find the best way to build love after a wayward spouse gives up the affair are exactly the steps I outlined. It may not be "right" or "just", but it has the best outcome. The best end results. <P>You said that you don't want a divorce. But you don't want to be the first one to expend the effort. No one here (or anywhere) can force your wife do the work right now. If you're here, and you want your marriage---then I'd suggest that you learn how to incorporate the MB principles to save your marriage. If you don't want a divorce, and you don't want to work on yourself or your marriage---you're going to be stuck in a pretty bad place.

Hi, take a deep breath. I can feel your frustration and pain. This is tough. What you are doing right now is focussing on your w. I will share with you a couple of things that I have learned. At this point everything you say about your wife is right. She does need to do this and that. But being right gets you the booby prize. You get nothing else but to be right. You need to give up the right to be right. Now, you need to start working on you. You can change you and the way you respond to your wife, but you cannot out right change your wife. I guarantee that if you start responding to your wife in a different manner, she will have to respond to you differently too. You may never get her on her knees begging your forgiveness. Is this so important or is it more important to work on the problems in your marriage? Get to work on yourself and then see what else needs to be done. Some good books (other than the Harley books) are Winning your Wife back Before its too Late by Gary Smalley and When One of you Wants to Keep the Two of You Together by Susan Page. Good luck. This is definitly not an easy road, but you can make it.

<BR>K, I think you keep missing my point. I am quite familiar with all the concepts espoused here, and I do not find I agree with them. Is that a problem? My point is that I have been doing a cost/benefit analysis of this marriage, and I do find that "Plan A"ing has too high a price tag given all that's happened. I cam here to see what might be in store for me in terms of trying to fix things from my side, and the means themselves I find unpalatable, considering that the end they lead to (a rebuilt marriage) aren't much of a selling point to me when I no longer feel any spark or affection (only disgust and anger) toward my former best friend and wife.<P>Again, I am not of the mindset "save the marriage at all costs." There are no kids, nor financial woes that would prevent divorce. I am of the mindset that marriage is a two-way street; that my wife has done a grievous wrong by having the affiar, and that as a consequence of HER behavior SHE needs to take responsibility by making restitution from her side to make up for this breach by initiating the repair work.<BR>If she REALLY wants this, she will do it. If she doesn't want it deeply (which I am inclined to believe is true given her actions to date), then I am happy to say goodbye without looking back.<P>In other words, if she is willing to walk all over the marriage for her own selfish aims and then refuse to make amends for that behavior then I am NOT inclined to remain married. That is complete nonsense to me, and I categorically reject that as an option, because 1) I do not value the institution of marriage as something sacrosanct, again, I consider this a social contract and 2) I deserve to be treated with respect and decency by my putative best friend and mate.<P>If those things are absent, and they ARE in a big way, THEN I do not see what point there is is trying to repair all this deep, deep damage. For what? To have this happen again? To be miserable in the marriage as I am now for more years to come? Life is TOO SHORT!<P>Look, if she's not even able to deal with this like a responsible adult TO H3LL WITH HER! I am quite content to live by myself, as I have done in the past for many years. Even the worst moments of loneliness were no match for the intensity of anguish her affiar has caused me, and the idea of looking forward to months, possibly YEARS building something out of this is distinctly unpalatable to me.<P>I look at all the stories here, the months, even YEARS of agony endured by the partners of wayward spouses, and I must say I find it incredibly disheartening, and it really discourages me from even wanting to fix this anymore if this is what I have to look forward to. If this IS the reality for those who DO make it, jeez, do I really need the hassle?<P>

you go, K! i totally agree with everything you have said. love has no pride. and swallowing your pride doesn't mean you're a doormat -- it means you're willing to look beyond "being right" in order to find a solution. one can do this and still be a self-respecting, strong, don't-mess-with-me individual. it's a fine line, yes -- but the right balance is called maturity. i'm in no way insinuating that you are immature, suckerpunched. i'm just saying that NOW is the time to call upon that quality if you want to save your marriage. and nobody here wishes anything but the best for you, really.

<BR>Not to sound antagonistic, but did you read ANYTHING I wrote? (deep breath) Once again, I am completely uninterested in saving the marriage for the sake of saving the marriage (which is silly from my POV). I am interested in having some degree of happiness in my life, or barring that, at least not to live in abject misery due to a cheating spouse.<P>Believe me, I am ALL for finding a solution, and that solution is increasingly looking like I do not want to bother fixing this if the anguish and pain I see here is all I have to look forward to.<P>Believe me, pride has VERY little to do with any of this. If you see this as an issue of pride, that is your own projection, nothing more. This REAL issues to me exist at a far more fundamental level: can I live with this ill treatment and her total lack of desire to expend the tiniest degree of effort to show me she's serious about changing the parts of HER that lead to this? I have been quite active working on changing myself, for my own sake. But I have to live with her every day in spite of this. I wish I could snap my fingers and make her and all of this just go away, but I am stuck until I can determine if there's any sliver of hope for something wonderful to come out of this (and it HAS to be better, MUCH better than what existed to now, believe me). Quite frankly, I am very pessimistic about this possibility right now.<P>This is VERY much an issue of NOT wanting to put up with the months or years of incredible bull$hit to save something I am not terribly enthusiastic about at this point. I could be convinced it MIGHT be worth saving if my wife were to expend massive effort from her side to show she's serious that she wants to co-create a beautiful marriage. But for me to throw good money after bad with some "Plan A" is NOT my style. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, won the trophy.<P>And frankly, once a spouse has cheated, it reveals critical aspects of their character, and I am frankly unsure if I want to remain married to someone who will deliberately cause someone she professes to love. Infidelity is a DELIBERATE, PREMEDITATED act predicated on dishonesty and total diregard for another's feelings, and I am sorry, but I do NOT accept the "addiction" theory as an escape-hatch for the betrayer. If the betrayer is a rational (or semi-rational) adult, I can and do EXPECT responsible behavior from my spouse as a condition of staying married. The so-called "booby prize" to me is living alone, in much greater control of my life, with greater freedom and ESPECIALLY freedom from the bull$hit and anguish this has caused. Not a bad booby prize if you ask me. I've already been there and really learned to enjoy it. I have NO need for a spouse to feel happy. In fact, if I dispassionately look at my life, I can see that relationships themselves have caused the most misery in my life -- far more unhappiness than merely being alone has.<P>

Ok, now I'm confused. And yes, I read and understood every word you said. And, yes, also, I believe your points are valid to a certain extent. I understand the pain, the anger and what you want and deserve from a marriage - social or religious contract, makes no difference to me.<P>I do think you're missing something here, though, suckerpunched, with all due respect. Most of us are talking about love, of course in the context of marriage. And talking about the addictive nature of affairs. I guess what we're all trying to say is that she SHOULD be repentent about her transgression, however, because of the additive nature of the affair, she's not able to do that at this time. Plan A is NOT designed to make us doormats. In fact, anyone who has given it a try will tell you that it can be the hardest thing in the world to do and requires a great deal more strength and maturity than simply "going off" and acting on our emotions at the time. The PURPOSE of it is to bring our spouse to the point that they, too, will provide us with the love, respect and companionship that we deserve. You are ABSOLUTELY right in the things you feel you are entitled to. We all are. However, at this point in time, you won't be able to get them simply because you should. You have to help bring them around. Or, you have to say goodbye. The choice is yours; she can't do it right now.<P>Oh, I knew I had something else to say. I'll be honest with you. Until I got into this nonsense, I believed, as you do, that some people were the "type" to have and affair and others weren't. You had to have a certain "character trait" to commit such a betrayal. I have learned differently. Any one of us, under the right conditions, at the right time and place, is capable. And, like I read somewhere, the less likely you think you are, the easier it may be for you to fall into it. My h felt a lot like you do. Had no tolerance, no respect, whatsoever for "that kind of person". Well, you guessed it. And the guilt is slowly killing him. He got blindsided. So, that's one thing you may want to open your mind to - just a little.<P>I've been reading the way our friends here have tried to support you. If you keep posting, though, you will discover our method of support involves honesty. A true friend will also tell you when they feel you are wrong. You are welcome here - even when angry. Goodness knows, we've all had our moments. And you can without fail, expect support and encouragement. But that doesn't mean rubber-stamping your feelings. It means honest reading and thoughts, from those who care, those who have lived through this a lot longer and learned a lot of hard lessons. I guess what I'm trying to say is attacking those who are giving their time and attention to help you through this may not be the best way to proceed. Reread your posts as well. I did, several times.<P>Hey, what you've read here is reasonable. It's unlikely that a spouse who has had every possible emotional need filled throughout the marriage will have an affair. All of us, betrayed and betrayer alike, have to take our portion of the resposibility of creating the situation where an affair is possible. NOT THE AFFAIR. THERE IS NEVER A GOOD REASON FOR AN AFFAIR. But for the shape the marriage is in - absolutely. Since you say you want to stay married, on your terms, which is fine, then maybe we're just asking you to look at that marriage and see if there was anything YOU could do differently to make it better this time around, should it survive.<P>Best of luck to you, suckerpunched. We've all felt that way. and if you really do want to rebuild, and you're truly willing to do your part, so that your w can do hers, then you're definitely in the right place.<P>Lori<P><BR>

suckerpunched:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I came here to see what might be in store for me in terms of trying to fix things from my side, and the means themselves I find unpalatable, considering that the end they lead to (a rebuilt marriage) aren't much of a selling point to me when I no longer feel any spark or affection (only disgust and anger) toward my former best friend and wife.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What does this mean??? There are lots of skills that you need to learn to make a relationship work. But they're "unpalatable"??? And it's not worth it because you don't want your marriage anymore??? Then why waste your time here?<P>My advice to you is to leave this forum, divorce your wife, and not remarry until you do have a more "mature" view of love and marriage. If you really have no love left for your wife (truly), and the feeling is reciprocal, and there is no motivation to save the marriage, then things have gone too far. There are marriages that can't be saved---unfortunately, by the time you find yourself hunting on the internet for help, you may be in a "high risk" category.<P>You say the cost of fixing this marriage is too high. But you acknowledge the cost of divorce as well. Are you the kind of person who can comfortably live with himself in 10 years and say that it was all your wife's fault, and you have no regrets about your actions?? If you are---again, divorce is a perfect option for you.<P>I think, however, your last line says it all:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can see that relationships themselves have caused the most misery in my life -- far more unhappiness than merely being alone has.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And there's a large component of your lack of relationship skills that have caused that misery. And if you truly believe that you're "blameless" for these miserable relationships---well, that's just another aspect you need to work on before you will have a successful relationship. If you're here to learn these skills and need help in practicing them---then stick around. If you want to bash the methods, not suggest any other methods, and whine about your divorce, there are more appropriate forums for you than MarriageBuilders. There are lots of people who have rebuilt their marriages into much better situations---and the cost wasn't so high (in hindsight).<P>Good luck.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited December 03, 1999).]

suckerpunched,<P>I know my opening welcome to almost every since I started here... I include the line "No judging... no demeaning... no malice here!"<P>What I say here... I feel... is still in line with this... You may/will disagree. I don't feel I am judging... but holding up a mirror...<P>I really feel for you guy...<BR>I see the hurt in what I believe is a good man.<BR>It doesn't matter whether you're religious or not...<BR>It doesn't matter whether your christian, jewish, muslim, agnostic or an atheist...<BR>It doesn't matter whether you have a "faith" in almost anything or nothing...<P>Just some perspective...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My point is that I have been doing a cost/benefit analysis of this marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... if this is how you view the relationship of any marriage... become an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only thing keeping me with her at this point is that the turmoil of the Big D is too great<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... if this is the extent of care to have for a fellow human... become an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...nor do I hold marriage in the same regard as many who believe that marriage is necessarily "god-ordained" or some such... <B>...and...</B> I do not value the institution of marriage as something sacrosanct<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... marriage is just one of many relationships you can have in a life time... if treating it no different than an occasional encounter with a stranger(who you can sue for looking at you the wrong way)... <B>please</B>... become an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Marriage is (just) a SOCIAL contract, with clear rules. Rules such as NOT lying to your spouse. Forthrightness. If these aspects of the social contract are not upheld, that is a breach. It is the responsibility of the party in breachb to restore their side of things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... social contracts are fine for "societal behavior"... when you want to be in a <I>marriage</I>... you look at it as a "union" not an "agreement"... otherwise just become an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That's how this works in the REAL world, not in the Plan A world of "save the marriage at all costs."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... <B>never</B> has anyone here said "all costs"... and... the <B>REAL</B> world as you call it... has had signs of losing touch with marriage... marriage laws (not any god's laws) have said... OK go ahead and divorce... OK ruin the future children of the world... OK adultery doesn't count in the settlement... OK adultery doesn't count in alimony... OK adultery doesn't count in child-custody... OK if one person wants out.. screw the other to the wall... and do it hard!... OK the courts and lawyers will tke your money from you all the while pitying your plight... The <B>REAL</B> world SUCKS... and if you have never gone through any divorce before... welcome to a big eye opening experience of what the <B>REAL</B> world is offering us... then you can retreat as an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>NSR said that it's an addiction like alcohol or something. Wrong. It is like an addiction to alcohol where the spouse becomes violent after drinking. A drinker who drinks herself into a stupor I can live with and work with and help work through her addiction. A drinker who gets ddrunk and starts throwing kitchen knives I will toss out of the house, no ifs, ands, or but(t)s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... Live with and working with... implies giving unconditionally... not ifs, ands, or butts... unless those conditions become a little to hard to handle... then become an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Believe me, <B>pride</B> has VERY little to do with any of this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...Pride comes from self-justifcation... from self-righteousness(and you don't have to have a "faith" for that)... of just being right... Is being right all that important... it might be for an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Life is TOO SHORT![QUOTE]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes it is... but a life built on cost/benfit analysis... social contracts... inability to stand against addictive forces... becomes that much shorter... and maybe a little less meaningful to an outside or inside <B>REAL</B>world... unless your world is the world of an island unto yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I <B>dispassionately</B> look at my life, I can see that relationships themselves have caused the most misery in my life -- far more unhappiness than merely being alone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... I say no more....<P>except... I hope you find out some day, you <B>really</B> are loved... No matter what!<P>Jim/NSR<P>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 03, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 03, 1999).]

Well first things first, I must say I am impressed with your vocabulary. You seem to be a no-nonsense type of guy which has probably made this whole thing all the more difficult.<BR>I can agree with a lot of what you have said, and understand where you are coming from. As to people here not 'reading' your posts, allow me (as an unbiased observer) to assure you that they are reading your posts, and furthermore, based on the collective understanding and experience on this board, are responding with intelligence and forethought. What you take to be sanctimonious preaching is not that, but merely honest efforts to be of help - your harshness in replying is both insensitive and unjust.<BR>As for the social contract thing, hey, how can I argue with you? In a way it is. I to am a 'non' believer - and agnostic hermit in my own subtle ways. The thing is, we are not talking about two corporations here, but two people. People make mistakes. There is no board of directors to review every option and any/all possible consequences and dictate the proper course of action to ensure maximum return.<BR>As a betrayer, I feel an enormous responsibility to make restitution. ENORMOUS! This is due to the fact that I have a wonderful wife who I don't want to lose. Her reactions to my affair have humiliated me completely! She has been patient and forgiving (she would deny this) and willing to work at saving and rebuilding our marriage. She acknowledges her responsability for the state of the marriage before the affair and has made IMMENSE effort to change herself. My shame and humility come from within. They are not something that she put upon me or demanded that I feel, but feelings that stem from my own conscience. <BR>No offense here, If she had acted the way you have, or held the opinions that you do, I would be so busy being defensive that I wouldn't be in the state of mind that promotes true shame.<BR>If you want to save your marriage, you have to re-evalute your state of mind.<BR>If not, steel yourself for the big D.<BR>Again, no offense, just my view on the facts.<BR>You cannot command respect or love. Well, maybe you can, but at the very most, you will get a facade of these things...<BR>From your tone, vocabulary, expressions, I see you as a very powerful man... Lawyer, executive, whatever, you obviously have a great deal of control of things in the business world. It must be incredibly frustrating for you to be in this situation.<BR>I am not a proponent of the 'at all costs' thing... if you read any of my posts or replies to other posts, you will see that I am dead set against the doormat syndrome. I don't think it's a step towards healing, only more abuse.<BR>But if you want things to get better, YOU GET BETTER!!!!! You cannot force your wife too. she will have to do so on her own, and the desire to do so, (in this instance) will stem from her love and devotion to you.<BR>If you want things to change, YOU CHANGE.<BR>fact: <BR>Someone has to take the first step.<BR>fact: <BR>if someone doesn't, no steps will be taken.<BR>You can demand that she take the first step, but if you do, the actions following will stem from the demand, and not from within her.<BR>If, on the other hand, you decide to LEAD BY EXAMPLE, you will find that those who follow you do so because they WANT TO, which is the key to effective partenerships. Wouldn't you agree?<BR>Despite what the others have said, I don't recomend that you leave. (unless you have truly given up hope of saving your marriage)<BR>You are hurt, you are reacting instead of acting.<BR>In your business life, are you pro-active or re-active? Would you say that this has had an impact on your level of success? Do you think that shifting your paradigm would yeild a different reaction from your wife?<BR>Nobody here will say that her affair is your fault. It's not. There, is after all a bottom line here, but affairs don't usually just happen - unless the betrayer is a dastardly person, there has to be motivation - usually BIG motivation. <BR>For me, having an affair went against everything I believed in. I sacrificed my integrity and acted in a manner that put the the emotional health and development of my children and wife in severe jeopardy. <BR>My motivations are detailed in a response to the post "Are there any betrayers out there whose OW meant nothing to them" by Notrust. If you want to get an inside view into a betrayers head, check it out.<BR>The problem with affairs is that althought there is a bottom line, it is seldom as 'cut and dry' as you would like it to be.<BR>On this board, you will find a multitude of people who have been through what you are feeling right now. People who are JUST AS OUTRAGED and JUST AS HURT as you, some even moreso. These people are and have been dealing with these feelings for a while and can really help you, if you want it.<BR>So here's my advice in a nutshell...<BR>If you want to save your marriage, give your wife something else to react to. Show her what she really jeopardized by her actions. Just for a second, step outside yourself and reread your posts... are you carrying an attitude that will make her regret her actions, or one that will help her justify them?<BR>Don't expect her to make restitution just because she is supposed to. Things have gotten beyond that point. You may consider bring her to this board. My wife and I post here together and seperately and it has helped beyond measure. Two months ago, we were both seriously considering the big D.<BR>Be more proactive. <BR>deut<BR>