<BR>OK, K (borrowing from Kafka?), it appears you don't like anyone who disagrees with your One True Way, who might not swallow your Party Line without questioning it. Given that you know nothing about me or this situation other than what VERY little I've shared here, I find that tone and nature of your replies uncalled for. From what I've seen most BETRAYERS get a lot less judgment around here than someone who calls into question the "wisdom" of "Plan A" or saving the marriage for its own sake, as if the IDEA of marriage is more important than the happiness of both its participants.<P>Soulloss's ex, on the apparent "harshness" of my replies. I am normally VERY easygoing, though I never pull punches, as I value directness even if it ruffles a few precious feathers. In fact, people who know me often tell me I'm one of the most open-minded, accomodating, and flexible people they know, and they enjoy my company because I don't seek to impose my own views on them. Even my wife says the same thing. I am, however, in a very bad emotional state from what's happened, and I find myself uncharacteristically short-tempered when I get nonsense from those who know pratically nothing about the situation. Disagreement I can not only handle; I actually enjoy it. Just NOT know-it-all sanctimony -- especially not when I'm in this frame of mind. I mean, I already have enough crap to deal with. Do I need even more $hit right now?<P>On the "winning her back" part. I really don't give a toss if expecting a basic respect (which means no dishonesty or infidelity) is a lovebuster, or if maintaining that as a boundary drives her away for good. It is MY boundary, after all, and a boundary that, if crossed, causes me too much anguish to live with. If respecting this boundary is too much to ask of her, then I don't need or want her, becasue it demonstrates to me she is too self-centered to take anoter's feelings into account, and such people are to be avoided at all costs in my opinion. What I find interesting is that I am being censured for maintaining boundaries about what I consider acceptable and unacceptable in my life and marriage. It is MY prerogative: it's my life, after all! If I choose to live with the severe emotional abuse of infidelity, it is MY choice, and if I choose not to, that is my choice as well.<P>Even by her admission I gave her no reason to do what she did. I did everything I could to make our marriage the best it could be. But in truth some people are intent being miserable (she's suffered severe depression for years), and there is NOTHING one can do for someone hell-bent on remaining stuck in a quagmire of their own, self-created misery. I can't control HER behavior or make HER happy beyond trying to be be a good husband by caring, listening, and giving her the room she needs, which is what I endeavored to do -- all while learing to live with many things I found unpleasant as the price to be paid for accepting someone as they are.<P>Anyway, ultimately, happiness is our own reponsibility. It is not up to our spouses to make us happy (nor is such a thing even possible), though a good relationship may help one feel more secure and content. On the other hand, some relationships can make otherwise content people miserable, too. <P>Regaredless, I feel it is NOT acceptable to cause another harm in any way if one can avoid causing that harm. There is a thing called ethics and scruples which, for most of us most of the time, prevent us from heedlessly inflicting pain on others. It is not, in my opinion, too great a request to expect that I not be subject to unnecessary pain from my spouse's behavior.<P>I consider both of us adults, and as adults we must take responsibility for our own actions -- that means NO EXCUSES for infidelity (I mean, do alcoholics get out of DUI's because they're alcoholics?). There ARE truly no excuses for it in my opinion other than an unwillingness to "do the right thing." I mean, I was recently faced with a similar situation where a woman kept coming on to me. I had every opportunity to do something, but I realized the potential danger and avoided her like the dickens, furthermore, making no bones about the fact I was happily married at the time to eliminate ANY possible doubt about my intentions. I expect at least the same or similar from my spouse. This is NOT difficult or too tough a request, in my opinion!<P>Does that mean I can't forgive her mistakes or that I don't realize that people make mistakes? Of course not. What it DOES mean is that I do not find it acceptable to be subject to unnecessary pain because my partner is bent on gratifying her own whims. And furthermore, I also feel that it is the duty of the spouse who has done wrong to make amends for that behavior, to at least demonstrate the seriousness of their intentions to restore the broken vows. hether or not that happens in practice, well, obviously, it does not. BUt then I have to ask, especially afterseeing the COUNTLESS times spouses go back on their word, "slip" and call the OP, p[lus the ensuing misery to the betrayeds here, and I oftenb find myself asking "what, are they CRAZY for putting up with that sort of terrible treatment?" What I am curious about is why my opinions on this seem to be so controversial to some people here.<P>

Suckerpunched,<BR>Hi!<BR>It looks like you already have clear ideas of what you want. You have clearly stated that if your wife doesn't meet your expectations, then you are ready to give up and get divorced.<BR>You mentioned the fact that you have enjoyed your space and giving your wife her space, and that it lead to her betrayal. Now you seem like an intelligent guy, doesn't that seem ironic? I can tell you that there is a very good explanation behind it. There is this thing called intimacy. You said that you did'nthave it before your W's betrayal.<BR>I think that what led her to infidelity was the lack of intimacy, that physical, spiritual, and emotional oneness that we all seek. Can't you understand that if she was unfaithful to you, it was because she felt the need for something you were not giving her? I'm not justifying her actions, she did the wrong thing, but you have to take responsibility for your mistakes also. If your wife has been clamming up so much, do you have any idea why? Do you think maybe you have minimized her feelings before, or that maybe she has tried to explain before and you just didn't understand her? <BR>If you only see marriage as a social contract, you wont get much out of it, because you won't be willing to put very much into it. Forgiveness is not a concept that a "social contract" can even comprehend, and without it, love is dead. If that's what you want to settle for, that is completely up to you.

<BR>Zel,<P>On the intimacy thing: she has, from the beginning, had many problems opening up. For starters, she has practically zero libido from the antidepressants (so she thinks; it may just be low in general). Furthermore, she has a personality type that tends toward "stuffing" feelings until they explode; and she also tends toward difficulty communicating feelings until such a critical mass is reached, although she rarely gets really upset -- just more low-level dissatisfaction and general malaise arising from a constellation of self-esteem and self-confidence issues and the like.<P>Also, I FULLY admit I am not perfect, nor have I EVER harbored such illusions. I am very much fallible and make mistakes like anyone else. However, I have also done what I can in spite of my imperfections -- to the very best of my ability -- to both accept her as she is AND endeavour to give her whatever she said she needed to be happy -- except, of course, accepting the waffling, lying, and betrayal of infidelity, because the pain to me was FAR too great, and I had to draw the line someplace.<P>The truth is that if someone is either unwilling or unable to open up then it cannot be forced. Nor did I dare try. She has been in therapy for years for this sort of thing. We have had many conversations about the intimacy "problem" (which I never considered much of a issue because we are both very independent people). Ultimately, nothing changed, not in the sex life, and not in the intimacy part -- which again was a compromise I was all to willing to make if that was all she was able to give. But without any willingness or ability to really open up on her part, there was precious little I could do other than listen whenever she needed to talk, which I tried my very best to do -- as she has admitted herself. There were never any unreasonable barriers present in the marriage that would have made talking about any dissatisfaction difficult. She has told me she never felt it was at all difficult to raise and talk through any issues bothering her.<P>Also, I have always been interested in mutual happiness, not in one or the other person being "right" (which is why I found judgments believing I am more interested in being "right" so way off base). In fact, we went five years with nary an argument and MUCH peace and harmony at home, and always smoothed out any disagreements very quickly with minimal fuss. In fact, it was about as tranquil a marriage as I could have hoped for until all this crap started, and even to HER, she said she felt this way as she has admitted to me. Until her life was rocked by a "midlife crisis" of sorts where she began to question what she was doing with her life (though not the marriage, as she said she always felt happy).<P>Believe it or not, there ARE situations where NO amount of the "right stuff" can prevent someone hell-bent on selfishly fulfilling their own desires from acting in a way contrary to their (and others') best interests. I view this as one such example. Yes, it MAY have been possible to meet more of her needs. But it is VERY important to draw a clear distinction between meeting someone's NEEDS and fulfilling all their FANTASIES. I do not believe that in this case had I just done X, Y, or Z, it would have prevented the infidelity. Many, many people (especially males) cheat on their spouses out of a need for excitement and variety, and they would feel unfulfilled and dissatisfied no matter WHO they were with ("the grass is greener" phenom). I very much believe that is the case here, and she has also admitted to this.<P>In this case, I find this notion a crippling and irrational belief that does a great disservice to both the betrayer AND the betrayed, by implying that "if only I had..." the infidelity would have never happened. Neither of us would buy that one in this case. This is only an ex post facto judgment slapped on something that in her case was motivated by a selfish desire to have some excitement and variety and kick out the drudgery and malaise of day-to-day life. In short, she allowed her fantasy life to run riot, with very, very serious real-world consequences.<P>For example, I know how I'm attracted to other women, and have been throughout my marriage, as is every other red-blooded male or female whether or not they cop to this truth. Big whoop. And we ALL crave things like excitement and variety and we ALL have the desire to feel special. Let's face it, that spark of "new love" is just not a realistic aspect of a long-term marriage, and affairs are rocket-fuel for these cravings, for sure. I lay much blame on our culture's irrational beliefs about love and marriage. Rent any of of those fantasy-mongering "romantic comedies" if you disagree. It is frankly impossible to live up to that!<P>The salient point here is there's a WORLD of difference between allowing oneself to FEEL the tug of such desires and ACTING on them. The truth is that infidelity takes effort. Great effort. Especially when you consider all the energy that goes into maintaining all the lies and self-deceptions involved. Fact: infidelity is a 100% volitional act, and as such it is EASILY avoided by one with a refined sense of ethics and a sense of GENUINE caring about their spouse.<P>So, not to be a Party Pooper, but at least you have my unvarnished opinions on this matter.<P>

Hi Suckerpunched!<BR>You know, one thing I didn't say on my last post was that even though I can't fully understand your pain, I realize that all of your feelings are natural and completely justified. But also as you yourself mentioned it is up to the will to act differently from what our feelings and desires dictate.<BR>But now, before I write anything else, I have a few questions for you: Do you still love your wife? If so, would you be willing to try very hard to rebuild your marriage that has been severely damaged by infidelity? Furthermore are you willing to lay down your pride and feelings and concentrate on helping your wife feel loved unconditionally?<BR>Since you have been seeking advice and support in this forum, I have the feeling that at least one of these questions are answered by a yes. But I can honestly tell you that if they were not all answered by a yes, I see very little hope for your marriage.<BR>Maybe you and your wife were never able to experience the passion that most people dream of. But I can assure you that it is not just a fantasy, or a lie. It is REAL! I live it everyday with my H. We've only been married for 3 years, but we know people that have been married for 20, and they to live passionately in love. I also know that this is not a reality for most people, I know that such couples are a very small minority. The truth is that passionate love is a product of hard work, endurance, patience and selflessness. It doesn't come easily and it must NEVER be taken for granted.<BR>so when you wrote<BR>"For example, I know how I'm attracted to other women, and have been throughout my marriage, as is every other red-blooded male or female whether or not they cop to this truth. Big whoop. And we ALL crave things like excitement and variety and we ALL have the desire to feel special. Let's face it, that spark of "new love" is just not a realistic aspect of a long-term marriage, and affairs are rocket-fuel for these cravings, for sure. I lay much blame on our culture's irrational beliefs about love and marriage. Rent any of of those fantasy-mongering "romantic comedies" if you disagree. It is frankly impossible to live up to that!"<BR>So I have to disagree with you. It is possible, but it takes all those things that you seem so unwilling to do: bending backwards for someone that has hurt you, focusing on your mistakes rather than those of your wife, trying to make things better for you even though she doesn't even seem to care...etc.<BR>Do you really think that your wife cheated on you only because she just selfishly wanted to get a little thrill or excitment? Do you think maybe there could be more behind it? What are the "fantasies" that she had that you mentioned you could not fill? Did they involve romance and intimacy?<BR>You know, you may get bugged by my response and by the things that others say, but seriously, I hope you know that our main desire to help you. I, like many others, have a cause for happy marriages. I REALLY wish everyone could be as happy in their marriage as I feel in mine. It's not a perfect marriage, we have spats here and there, but we love each other unconditionally, and I know that no matter what, when I need support, my H will be there for me.