I was once again searching through the techniques of how to survive an affair. The Emotional Needs Test, Love Busters, etc, etc. My H and I have all done that. Still, here we sit.<P>My H has only said so far that his conversations with the OW are so different than the every day conversations with me. And so he finds them most enjoyable. She doesn't discuss household issues, child rearing issues, though they do discuss me, YUCK!<P>Anyway, my thought is...the advice by this site is that while he is trying to end his addiction, it becomes my job to replace the needs that were being met by the OW. How am I suppose to do this? I'm still the one who has to discuss the very things she doesn't discuss with him. As well I can and have always discussed other things, too, but given what he has said, he's only enjoying her because she doesn't ask for the grocery money or remind him to call the contractor...and no, I don't nag! How do I replace such a "need"?

Is there hope?,<P>Your task (not "job") is <B>not</B> "to replace the needs that were being met by the OW"…<BR>…your task is to <BR>(1) Identify your H's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>… and then<BR>(2) Start meeting them as best as you can!… and <BR>(3) Try to eliminate all <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>.<P>To find out what his (and your) emotional needs are… do a self-assessment. Go to the ===> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4110_emndsq.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs Questionnaire</A>… pull down 2 copies and fill it out for you and for him… if he's willing have him do the same!<P>You have to take care of home, bills, finances, kids(?), whatever out the normal course of everyday living… and that's what gives the OW the edge of being his "fantasy life"! She doesn't do these things and you can't take away that from her (unless your real world would crumble.)<P>How long has the affair been going on?<BR>Any counseling?<BR>See the typical type of info we put into our <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>Roll Call</A> post and fill us in a a future post or your profile.<P>We care… honestly!<P>One more thought… along the lines of counseling… consider having a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> ($85US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A>. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A>!<P>Prayers… <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited February 27, 2000).]

Is there hope?<P>Is your H at home? Was/is it an ea or pa? I have similar questions. I can't get my H to even talk to me about us or anything other that the kids. <P>I do have a counseling session with Steve Harley tomorrow. I am at a loss re my husbands MIEN's. I thought I was meeting them. I thought the kids were his joy. HE won't even discuss what was wrong with us. I went from "Ilove you" to "there is nothing we can do" "You can't change"<P>I know how hard it is when the mundane,everyday issues must be talked about. What about his interests?? sports?? hobbies??? books????

Hi Jim and thanks so much for replying to this. All the suggestions with the questionaires...we've done all that two years ago. The problem is, which I stated in another post, is that he is capable of sitting there and having these great conversations with me, and all the while knowing he is continuing a relationship with the OW. As I said in the other post, he doesn't want to lose me so he will go through all of these motions to pacify me without ever telling me the full truth.<P>As for the phone counseling, it's even more expensive than you state simply because we are from overseas. I wouldn't mind correspondence by email with a fee, assuming I didn't have to wait forever like it used to take back when emails were accepted. But the financial burden of phone counseling would certainly do more harm than what has already taken place. But thanks for that bit of info just the same.<P>By the way, my H would admit that I've done a wonderful job with the Love Busters list and Emotional Needs. Again, his only claim with this woman is that his conversations with her are on a much different note than with me and he really enjoys this change. So in other words, which he has said as well, I'm not doing anything wrong!<P>The fact is, he innocently began a friendship with this woman who was in an unhappy marriage. She began talking to him about her unhappiness and the friendship developed. Soon thereafter so did the feelings they now have had for eachother for two years...though the bulk of this time the two of them have both told me they did not speak to eachother. However, a month ago he contacted her again to see how she was doing. Now she wants to marry him. And he is playing dumb to all of this. Says he didn't know she had any feelings for him at all though she says they told eachother they loved eachother two years back. ???<P>I'm really at a loss as to what to do, in fear of over-reacting, and much more frightened that I will trust him once again when I shouldn't. <P>I've been through the program of MB tools and techniques back in 1997. Under false pretenses and I didn't know it. I won't know it this time either.<P>So is there any new advice that says when it is time for me to quit and cut my losses?<P>Thanks again for your help.

Claudia<P>Thanks for your post. Not sure if I know all the abbreviations but will give it a try. If EA and PA are for physical or emotional, it has been only emotional, as far as either of them will admit to. ??? Only they and God know the real answer.<P>He is at home but said he would move out. When I don't know.<P>Your H doesn't/won't talk and my H does but it's mostly nonsense. Which is worse? Can't really make things work with either kind of a conversation now can we. And maybe that is the whole point. Maybe that's exactly what they want.<P>If MIEN's has to do with emotional needs, I didn't just think I was he told me I was meeting them. Can't even find anything wrong with me to blame his actions on this time. <P>Truth of the matter is, he began loving her 2 years ago, when I first learned of her, and though he told me it had ended, the relationship itself came to a hault but his feelings did not. He recontacted her again just a month back.<P>Our interests our completely different but that has always been part of the attraction. I don't see it as a stumbling block at all. Perhaps it is but certainly not worthy of all this pain that we are now going through.<P>AS for your own H not speaking, as I explained to my H, perhaps you should try to keep in mind as well...the normal person is not equipped or educated to deal with marital problems, especially on this scale. So when problems occur and the pain is deep and traumatic, it is easy to assume there is no way of fixing things. I'm sure you follow me so far here.<P>Now, on a different note, if the car breaks down we "know" to take it to the garage for repair. It's that simple. But people just don't know where to go for help when the marriage breaks down...hence the attitude that it can't be fixed. I suspect that saying only means that he has lost all hope because he doesn't know where to take the car! Does this make sense?<P>Now, in order for him to come around a bit, he only has to listen. I hope he is at least listening? Will he be a part of your phone conversation/counseling tomorrow? <P>I learned something here in these forum sections this time that I hadn't learned before, yes this is not my first time here...that you can't make him change or show him how. You have to let him go so he can grow up and figure it out on his own. all you can do is to take responsibility for your own actions, not his. And if you do try to teach him or take responsibility, Claudia, I promise you, you are only prolonging the inevitable. I did it myself twice, I know, here I sit a third time. Only this time he seems to love another woman, it's not a physical attraction like before. <P>Don't lead him to the water, don't make him try to drink. Remember the phrase...if you love something set it free...set him free Claudia. This doesn't mean divorce him, just don't force him. Take care of you, distance yourself from him emotionally, give him the emotional space he needs to figure this out, too. It won't be at your speed but his own which will probably be a snail's pace, and painfully slow at that for you, but really, I've tried the obvious and less obvious and lost both times...now I'm letting him grow up. <P>It may not have a happy ending like the story books but the point is not so much to save the marriage as it is to save me from destructing along with it. He has the power to save the marriage, if he ever decides he wants to. You and I only have the power to save ourselves. <P>Good luck with your counseling tomorrow. You may well be advised to do things completely different than what I have just said here but it is the best I have to share with you at this time. I hope you can reply and perhaps share some wisdom as a result of your session. Whether you do or not, the best of luck to you.

Is there hope?<P>Thanks for your reply. This has been a particularly bad weekend for me. I think I am still in shock. It seems impossible to me that this man who seemed to everyone (me the kids, his family (who are very close) neighbors and friends ) to cherish me and our family could after 1 10 day trip (with op) turn me into the enemy. <P><BR>There seems to be some sort of mid-life or existential crisis here as well. I have let him go. I have stepped back emotionally. I have not brought up anything! <P>He does not know about my counseling. He says there is nothing "we" can do. He will not go to counseling with me. He won't even tell me what the issues are. He basically turned a switch off to me and the kids.<P>The kids are my biggest problem. THey are devasted. They do not understand what and why this is happening (ages 10-8-5)) They are complaining every night about "fake" illnesses, they are crying for their daddy, they sleep with me etc. <P>Unfortunately, this seems to be the ultimate love buster for him. He went from coming in the door and throwing them up in the air to basically telling me that he could just as soon see them once a week. ANd believe me it comes through to them. <P>When I tell him any things they say, or if they whine to him somehow it gets turned around against me. More ammo I guess. <P>How can a father, who came from an incredibly close knit family, detach himself from his children. He told his mother that he would not stay in the marraige for the kids. This was after 11 years of never saying there was anything wrong. <P>This is why I believed that he was hypnotized during his 10 day trip to Thailand with her (business). He really came home looking possessed. <P>I know I cannot make him change (though I really appreciate you reminding me). I hope he can change. He really was a wonderful man. I told him early on "I don't know where you went....but I miss you" He is like the mr. Hyde to Dr. Jekyll. <P>What are you saying to your husband when he says he wants to move out? Do you have children???? <P>

Claudia<P>Wow, what is with these 10 day trips. My H did the same thing...came home possessed. he's been that way for two years now. Hope yours is sooner.<P>You asked a pointed question...I may have typed the wrong thing before. My H does NOT want to move out. I want him to. And yes, I have four children and one on the way. They are all unaware of what is happening. Daddy is going on a trip. Just don't know if Daddy will ever come home from it!<P>My H admitted to me since my last post that he loves this woman, told her so two years ago, and never stopped talking to her. Says he has tried, which I doubt, but that he is just hooked. <P>So be it. He is very upset. Doesn't want our marriage to end. Doesn't know how to end it with her. It's not my problem. And you know what Claudia, your H's situation is not your problem either. Throw yourself onto your children and your own needs. Help them deal with it, don't worry about dealing with it yourself. <P>Clearly, their father is having a hard time in his life right now. It's hard for him to be nice. He still loves all of them but it's just really hard to show it. Just like when they, too, have hard days...it's hard for them to be nice. But adults have bigger problems so it takes longer and it's a whole lot harder. I'm sure you've said all this to them already. Just be there for them, they will be there for you, and together, with or without H, you will all make it through this.<P>Sometimes I have found that the biggest blessings in life are the things which initially bring the most pain. It's an opportunity to grow Claudia. For both of you, he much more so than you but still, you've both so much to go through with this and you will be very different people in the end than who you are right now. That can be a good thing...if you make it one. <P>I'm going to do just that. I hope and wish for you the same. It's the most difficult pain you will ever endure. But don't let it take control of you. You take control of it. But only as far as YOU and the kids are concerned, not him. He has to be responsible for himself.<P>I hope your counseling goes well...how long since you learned of his affair? Was it emotional or physical? try to appreciate his point of view in all of this as well. He has probably just gone through an experience beyond his own control, beyond his wildest imagination, beyond his own ability to deal with it. YOu are not the enemy Claudia, you are simply the person he knows he has hurt and cannot tolerate the truth of his actions. My H does the same thing. He does something wrong and I am painted as the bad guy. It's only shame. Nothing more.<P>

Hi there,<BR>I went trought the same thing, actually, I think most of us did.At least in terms of the conversation with the op. Of course it's so much nicer, talking nicely about all the good stuff, and then get home and have to deal with the need to fix the toilet or the money needed for the kid's new shoes...<BR>I understood that, but couldn't see how I could work it out. It turned out to be quite simple in my case. I simply didn't talk about it at all - at that time-. I stopped telling him about he kids fight at school, or the time my son cut his own hairr. If something needed fixing, I either fixed it myself or ask for help from friends or called whoever could fix it. It was actually funny because he was the one who started feeling strange about it and the one who started asking about all the things he had said didn't want to hear about. Many times I just pretended I didn't hear him <BR>He was getting curious and couldn't figure out how I was coping.<BR>Well this served two purposes. First it did help with our relationship, he was so curious he was actually staying home just to see how I was doing it, we talked more than we had in some years, and he was enjoying our converstions becasue he felt he wasn't being threatned and that I wasn't making him decide, I left that decision for him, and gave them time with the understanding that it couldnt' take forever. But it also helped me to rely on myself more. I never had a problem with that, just felt that if something needed to be done, we should discuss it together, and up to the affair he always agreed with that. However, it felt good remembering that I don't really need anybody, and can solve things by myself, without having to ask anybody's opinion ( if he didn't like the end result, too bad, he hadn't been there when the decision was made ).<BR>We're now back to discussing things and making decisions together, but every once in a while, I just do it myself. SO he remembers <P>Another thing that I did at that time, that had rarely done before the affair, was to go out without the kids more often. Before the affair, and because we couldn't really be spending money on babysiters we rarely went anywhere without them. Now, I usually save some extra money just for babysiting, and also leave them with his aunt who doesn't mind babysiting them every once in a while, and either go out with him, or even with friends.<BR>Another thing that I didn't have prior to the affair, was time to myself. I had stoped swimming, kept postponing the hairdresser, wouldn't go shopping by myself, because I didn't have anybody to stay with the kids and since he works nights, during the day he was resting. After the affair, I changed that. I started swimming again and leaving the kids with him - after all if he could loose hours of sleep to be with the ow, could very well do so to take care of his children. Before I did it, I debated with myself if this could create a bigger problem, but decided to go ahead just the same. I realised I had to do things for myself if I wanted to keep my sanity,take some time to relax and recharge. I wouldn't even ask him. I would just state that I was going swimming and would be back in one hour. If he wanted he and the kids could join me, if not, I'll see them when I got back.<BR>In any case, I'm not sure what your situation is, but I would give it a try in terms of not talking to him about anything related to the kids, or things that are needed. See how he reacts to it.<BR>ALl the other topics should be on, and conversation should be easy and non threatning.Even if he's still seing the ow and that is p******ing you off.<BR>Have something you would really like to tell him? Write it down.Have a question regarding the affair or the ow? Write it down. Maybe when things get better you can go back to it and get your answers or say what you want, but beware , when things start getting better, some of the questions you wrote down become unimportant, you don't need the answers to them anymore.<BR>Or, if you really need to ask him about something and it can't wait, write him a note or a letter. The reason being that trought a letter, things become less personal. The spouse doesn't feel as threatned - unless it's not stating facts but venting - or in need of an answer right away. I noticed with my H that if we were talking he would concentrate in the first thing he felt he needed to answer and the rest would be lost, while he was looking for the best answer. So I resorted to notes and letters. He didn't feel as much pressure, and I still told him what needed to be told.<BR>You probably tried this already, but just in case you didn't here it is. It was my experience and it worked fine.<BR>take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited February 28, 2000).]

is there hope?<P>Wow. You really have a great attitude. I hope my attitude will improve. My children are not helping. They are devastated and he really does not care. They are taking it out on me. I have tried to get him involved but I think that it makes him feel more "trapped" so he flees. And somehow he turns it back around against me. <P>But in saying that and looking at yours and others responses, it seems that the kids must be a great big love-buster for my husband. Somehow, I am simply going to have to deal with their crumbling psyches myself. <P>They have counseling apt.s My husband does not understand why they need it. He says, "once they figure out that they'll see me once a week, they'll be fine" When I tell him that they are used to a father who was totally devoted to them and they are little and do not understand he gets up in a huff and goes"yeah, yeah, yeah."" <P>My son cried (age 8) last night and said "I don't understand what's going on. There has to be a reason that daddy left" It is so heartbreaking. But I guess I'll just have to get over it and deal with it myself. Having him deal with any of the kid issues makes him worse.<P>Our eldest daughter has been a squeaky wheel since birth. He really does not want to deal with her. I get the feeling he thinks the kids behavior is my fault. (They really are just being kids). The problem for the kids is that they pick up on the negativity and personalize it and it's hard for me to know what to say, because it does appear that he does not love them!!!!! I guess I'll just have to not bring them up or try to ignore the questions like Kat1 suggests.<P>You were the one to start this topic by asking the question, but thanks for all of your advise. This is relatively new to me. If it were not for this forum, I would have thought I was in the Twilight zone.

Yes There's Hope!<BR>Boy, you have a hard one to deal with here......But you have gotten a lot of good advice. I can relate to the emotional affair, my H was involved for 3 years with a whiner and cryer who he car pooled with, infact it was our Neighbor. Tired and sick of her Husband and prayed on mine. He enjoyed the companionship during the 40 min. drive, a friendship like he had never had, (he later told me), then the secrative aspect, I think, started coming into play. THEN.....it became more involved!!!!! YES, all good, no taking out the garbage, money or family matters when he was with her. ALL fantasy. That's a hard happiness to let go of. Different as night and day. Even though it's not bad at home, they create it that way in their minds to justify what they are doing. Excitement vs. Same ole, Same ole.<P>I'm sure he will tire of this........ I'm sure he will start feeling what he is doing to you and start feeling the guilt. My H did. Infact..... he said those exact words. He even said he was unhappy during the whole period, but I guess the excitement won out over his unhappiness untill THAT became old and he wanted it to go away. Besides, after he told me,,,,,(a cry for help from him, they can get into this by themselves but not get out of it by themselves) I had to do all the work until he mended. But I never gave him the idea that he needed to mend his feelings. We never spoke of that or sympathized that he was breaking off something. I did tell him, " If I was truly in love with someone.....that is where I would want to be, NOTHING could keep me from them",,, so since he was with me.......I think that kinda says it all......."so? Do you think you really love her?" I think it hit home. <P>I don't think you can work on this with him out of the house, it has to be done together......."Out of sight, Out of mind" not good!!!!!!!!! BUT, you can be away from each other while you are together. He is proving that himself. He is already there. Maybe, you can do the same, only don't be secretive about it........ talk, set some rules, move him on the couch. I agree with Kat 1, take his responsibilities away from him, let him " look on" as a by stander and let him feel what he is missing. The Family and your love. Fix your self up, every day, get out of that rut that is doesn't matter, show him what he could have if he was a total part of the family. When the kids want him to go, make up an excuse, right in front of him, that he can't go this time, he needs to work on something. <BR>When you talk........ tell him he can't have it both ways.........you don't share, he has to give this up so you will have the motivation to work on your marriage, you need him to put all his time and energy into it also ......... replace her with you and his responcibilaty to be faithful to the family and your unborn. Tell him if he had the guts to start this in the beginning, he has the guts to end this now. He needs to get his own self respect back as well as your respect for him. Tell him also that you will have to make a decision also if he doesn't. My husband did a complete TURN AROUND when he felt that he was loosing me.......it hit him hard. Your H, like mine, has never stopped needing, wanting and loveing you...........He is with YOU!!!!!!<P>Almost Happy<P>---------<BR>TIME <p>[This message has been edited by Almost Happy (edited February 28, 2000).]

Almost Happy<P>I really like what you said...it is actually more comfortable for me and much more of how I felt things should be done...the part about him staying home so we coudl do this together. Problem is, I've done that before and it didn't work but he did admit today, he never really tried.<P>I need him out of the house right now though because he is deciding whether or not he really wants and is sincerely willing to get this woman out of his life...knowing that if he jumps the gun and says yes, then fails, that it will all but destroy me and our marriage. He doesn't want the marriage to end but doens't know how to rid her from his life. (Or so the story goes...)<P>So I opted that he leave our home to distance himself from me and the children to have time to really consider the choices...and he is to remain away until he begins family counseling. Only then will I accept him back. <P>Yes, I said HE begins counseling because I won't do it right now. The one and only time we did so I was so messed up by the trauma that the counselor put all of her attentions on me and by the time we were ready to move to him, she had to quit seeing us because she relocated. Stupidly we opted not to start over but to go it alone. So he never really had to answer any hard questions about his life or take any long hard looks at it. In short, he never had to grow up. <P>Still, I thank you for your post. I found it most fascinating with all the similarities and your optomistic outlook...especially the part about him being where he really wants to be in the first place. It's a nice thought. Comforting.<P>I will read this again and really try to absorb it. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me.

hope?,<BR>Just keep in mind........ just because something didn't work before, dosen't mean it won't work now..... things change, moods change, feelings change, minds change.<BR>I also would be afraid to give him the space to have the freedom with the OW. Right......he can do what ever he want's to during the day....but, why let him do what ever he want's at night. You are seeing that he isn't making the right choices now.<P>I hated my H as much as I loved him when we were in the first stages, but I would NEVER want to be away from him, plus I didn't want anyone to know, I had hopes that We could work this out and I didn't want anyone to know about it to complicate our future. <P>Just some more Thoughts........ <P>Almost Happy<P>-------<BR>TIME

Almost Happy<P>You have some really good thoughts that you are sharing and I really appreciate it as well as your concern. The OW is not in this country. SHe is actually an 8 hour flight from here. So really, anytime he wants access to her, she's just a phone call away and has been that way for two years now. They haven't been with eachother since that initial ten day trip when they first met.<P>But here's the harder part...in seeing all this info once again about affairs and ending them, clearly the advice is to treat it like an addiction. Well given her distance already this whole time, the only thing I can do is to remove all telephones in town. OR Hope that he has the willpower to not pick it up and dial...which he has failed before on this very note. So I'm not sure what to do except to pray that the guilt and anquish of the pain he has caused himself and me lead him to doing the right thing.<P>Got any thoughts on how to break this particular addiction? <P>Thanks again.

is there hope?<P>I don't know if this will help. In my counseling session with S.Harley I asked him about breaking the addiction when you can't get rid of the OP.(this is currently true in my case) He said it's like a drug, If you can't make the person stop using the drug they have to hit rock bottom. In your case I guess you have to figure out what rock bottom is. Maybe it is for him to be out. Isn't he currently having some needs met by her and some by you? Maybe if you remove the you it will make him see things clearly. But I guess that's what you were thinking right?? In my case I have to hope this plays out or bottoms out which of this magnitude it seems likely to. In the meantime I have to somehow make this the place he wants to come home to. <BR>Currently this task seems monumental. I would never have thought I'd say that. I thought I had a pretty sound marraige!!!!Oh well!!! <P>Today I heard from a friend that one of their friends had had an affair in his first marraige and when hearing of my situation said "Oh he must be having an affair. It feels like you are possessed or addicted" (THis is because the whole world sees this as out of character for my H ) This particular person did not marry the affair, but I guess his wife must not have read any of the MB stuff. Good luck.. I really enjoy reading your wisdom!!!!!Thinking of you

Hope?,<BR>I still think what I said before will help, and if he says he wants to keep trying......get him to go again to counselling with you...together...... the counselor will point out how much he is hurting you, and the things that he is doing wrong, confirming what you are saying. May be the two of you can wake him up. The more he realizes what he is doing to you and your marriage, the more he will want to quit the calling. The more guilt he will start having. <BR>This has got to be taking a toll on you, being pregnant and all,,,,,,,,doesn't he see that either? <P>Almost Happy<P>--------<BR>TIME <BR>

Claudia and Almost Happy<P>My apologies for not replying sooner to you both. Almost Happy, I've your reply way at the bottom! Sorry these are so long!<P>Claudia-<BR> just hang in there! I know how very hard it is, this is my third time around and the second time, 2 years ago, I actually got hit up twice (he told me about it and that it would end and then weeks later revealed that it had actually continued but finally ended and only now, two years later, am I finding out is was still going on this whole time! And this was all AFTER he'd had a PA two years prior!) I'm a bit of a veteran when it comes to hanging on but none the wiser.<P>I've read so many posts at this point that I can't keep straight all the wisdom and give credit to the proper person but let me say this, I think at this point in my life, given what I have read, trial by error, and the little successes I have had, I really do believe the best advice I have to share was the advice I was given only days ago...you have to let go and let him grow up. To do anything else just isn't enough. Again, this was based on my personal experience. I did all the changing I could to make him want me, us, and our home. I did it once, twice, but not a third time.<P>I'm not perfect. I wasn't then and even with all my changing I am not now. So yes, I could improve and be a better person, a better looking wife, etc etc. But this is not what I find it is about. It's about something screwy inside of HIM, not me. I'm an excuse for his behavior but I'm not the reason he actually chose this path.<P>I've edited a "poem" that was posted for me of what it means to "let go" as I knew it had to be done but didn't know where to begin doing it. Let me share it with you...<BR>To let go <BR>- doesn't mean to stop caring, it means I can't do it for someone else. <BR>- is not to cut myself off, it's the realization that I can't control another. <BR>- is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural consequences. <BR>- is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands. <BR>- is not to try to change or blame another, I can only change myself. <BR>- is not to care for, but to care about. <BR>- is not to fix, but to be supportive. <BR>- is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being. <BR>- is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcome, but to allow others to effect their own outcomes. <BR>- is not to be protective, it is to permit another to face reality. <BR>- is not to deny, but to accept. <BR>- is not to nag, scold, or argue, but to search out my own shortcomings and to correct them. <BR>- is not to adjust everything to my desires, but to take each day as it comes, and to cherish the moment. <BR>- is not to criticize or regulate anyone, but to try to become whatever dream I can be. <BR>- is not to regret the past, but to grow and live for the future. <BR>- to fear less and to love more. <P><BR>I had to condense it to fit on my refrigerator! I keep it posted there as a reminder. And as I gain the strength and courage to meet each task, I check it off as having accomplished that goal and move on to another. I've only about four check marks but when this began two weeks ago, I had none. So this is progress. <P>I can only suggest that you do the same. Sure, these other things can work...the Love Bank, Emotional Needs Test, etc...but he isn't even ready to deal with that yet. He obviously needs space to deal with what he had done to his life. And giving him the space by "letting go" will help him to do just that...and in letting go, you and I both might actually get them back!<P>Best of luck and thanks for sharing a bit of news on your counseling. I hope you will get more and that you are finding it valuable. <P><BR>ALMOST HAPPY-<BR>I can see your point on my situation though I can't find complete comfort in doing it. Twice before I kept him by my side in the house and it didn't work. Not simply because of that but also because I used the wrong technique...I did all the work to fix things and he didn't. <P>My H, I feel, is the type that so long as he is comfortable, he doesn't give it attention. Kind of like crisis management. Well, he isn't comfortable out of the house and has already found himself missing our son, for example. Sometimes a person has to be made to suffer before they can turn around. Though he has always been riddled with the guilt of his actions, it has never been enough to bring them to an end. <P>This is my last time with this nonsense. No matter what, I will NOT go through this again. He is on his last chance and if it doesn't work, so be it. But if I once again find myself doing all the work and he is comfortable, which is what will be if he stays here with me, then I've all but signed the divorce papers. <P>I'm not the type of person who can just stand by and watch someone suffer. My mind is constantly on the problem and when I look at him, it is even moreso. With him out I can keep busy doing other things without being reminded and springing into action.<P>As for counseling, yes he is going and I am going but not together. For a couple reasons...first, I've no desire to hear again his tale of this woman. The pain is immeasurable and I've already felt some contractions which suggested premature labor as I'm only at the beginning of my third term and yes, these were real contractions not Braxton Hicks...by now I know the difference! Second. It is extremely difficult for him to even speak about it in front of me and because of this, I feel I would only be slowing down his attempt to recover and change. Third, this isn't about me or even about us right now. It is about HIM. There is no "us" in the future if "he" doesn't change today. It's that simple. Not because I'm being too hard with him but because enough is enough. I love him enough to set him free and if that is the path he so chooses, then I will give it to him. But I will not continue fighting a lost cause. I have three daughters who are likely to model themselves after me and I will NOT allow them to see anything except a strong woman...meaning, self-respect and dignity in tact...not dependent upon a man for happiness. Preferably, in addition to that, they will also see how a good marriage should work. But that is up to him. And once he goes through his metamorphisis, I will go in with him to address "us". And while he is taking care of himself, I will take care of me.<P>About the OW and his time away from me...she's in a different country so the only access they have is by phone and he was doing that already so it's simply a matter of him being honest and true to himself and his spoken word..he wants to end the relationship, told her so tonight in fact while I listened, by phone of course, so being out on his own will not be any less tempting that it was already. She's always been and has only been a phone call away. There's nothing in the world I can do to stop that. And if I could, I wouldn't. Before I would have but not now. He has to grow up, he has to cope with his mistakes, and if he loses me and the kids in the process, it won't be because I didn't try every single thing I knew to do!<P>I thank you ALL for your help and please keep it coming! You've all been very wonderful for me!

UPDATE: I've decided to leave. Not the marriage but just the house. I don't see that being Mrs. Nice Guy is helping him. I've been there and done that! Seems when the heat is on, he does what he is suppose to do and no sooner than things get comfortable, the issues are brushed aside. Like I've mentioned before, crisis management. <P>I am seeing a counselor this morning. DOn't know how that will go given my attitude of refusing counseling together. Can't work on the marriage until he works on himself first. And this is why I'm leaving with the kids. To give him the space and time he needs to dwell on this. On the other hand, he may not dwell but that has to be his decision...it's part of letting go! I have to let him affect his own outcome and suffer the natural consequences...though I hope and pray there will be no suffering in the end.<P>I don't want to do this but staying together I do nt feel works. He admits he didn't try before and that he will try this time but again, That's not my fault. I was here for him the entire time, killing myself to learn to trust and forgive...a second time. The fact that he missed the boat round two as well as round one is not my responsibility.<P>Right now I have to worry about me and the children. THAT is my priority. And he will only have to worry for himself. That is a monumental task in it's own right.<P>I wouldn't walk away if I thought we really could do this together but like I said, I've twice stayed around and nothing happened...like many folks have said, sometimes a person just has to hit rock bottom before they can change. <P>I hope he survives the fall. How I do love him and want to help him and letting go this way will be the hardest thing I've ever done and himself he's most unhappy about it. I didn't bring this on us though and it's not my duty to clean it up. I simply won't accept any responsibility for this or be the guy who has to do the hardest work. Been there, done that twice, too.<P>Looking for any thoughts on this any of you might have. I know some strongly subscribe to remaining together but like I said, I've done that twice before...can't think of a good reason to now. He did say he's concerned that because he'll be so upset he'll start to convince himself I'm not coming back and it will mess up his agenda emotionally and that he might not succeed. Again, I can't help but feel that this has to be left totally up to him. I've assured him I would return and if he chooses to believe otherwise, that is up to him.<P>Thanks everyone.