--<P><p>[This message has been edited by Caterpillar (edited March 20, 2000).]

I am happy about the no contact see the smiley guy. <P>she asked me what my expectations were if she stopped contact. I said I would be hopeful if we started working on the marriage, this is her reply.<P>"Take it as I want to decide for myself, I refuse to let you define me and my<BR>decision. if that means stopping contact, that is what it means, and what I<BR>always knew it would mean. I will define myself. You will not do it for my<BR>by guilting me or by doing what I "should" do. I will take this time to work<BR>on ME, not him, not you, not our marriage. but on me."<P>So I'm stuck w/ blind trust that she won't contact him, she won't work on us, and she wants me to stop emailing other people, specifically my EA. Which I don't think it is, but if I have to I will give it up but she is a means of support for me.<P>Yes help us please, oh gurus of marriage building. we need it desperately.<P><P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

Caterpillar,<P>You have made a wise decision. OK! he wants to go to POJA. But is he willing to do Plan A. You know POJA is a negotiated thing and it must be done with both peoples enthusiastic consent. That of course includes using POJA itself. Ha! Ha! <P>Cat, did you understand what I meant about forgiving him before you can heal. Does he understand what I wrote to you? If he doesn't then I will post to him as well.<P>You both need to sit down, quit arguing about who hurt who, and work out a plan that will lead to you forgiving each other. You need one from him and he needs one from you. At this point if you are willing to do this, I would strongly recommend a counselor like Steve Harley.<P>You all are not out of the woods yet, but Cat you have done a very hard thing and I, as does everyone here, knows it. You don't have to remind Sparky we will. He is going to have to go some to earn your forgiveness as well as you earning his.<P>My advice, tell him to "Cool His Jets". This situation did not happen in a few hours and it won't be solved in a few hours. You do need space but you also need to let him help you and you help him.<P>Go for it Girl. You are making the right decision. .<P><BR>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

<BR>Okay thanks for posting that personal email <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Caterpillar (edited March 20, 2000).]

Sparkydog,<P>The no contact agreement on her part IS WORKING on your marriage, Duh! . You can see she is very defensive now because she is taking what for her is a great risk. <P>Please appreciate this and smile. You two do have a lot of work ahead but this is a major step and she took it. Now you need to make some steps as well. No hitting the buttons, treat her with kindness, no LB's, you can express concerns but in a non-judgemental way. Does this sound like Plan A?? .<P>Sparkydog, I know you are hurting but so is she. Please treat each other accordingly and let yourselves heal. Help each other when ever you can and as I said to Cat, consider getting in contact with a counselor.<P>You will undoubtably hear from some real experts at this. I would recommend listening to K and SHA as two of the best at understanding all of this.<P>This is a major step Sparkydog. There is love buried down there for you, but you will have to mine very carefully for fear of a cave in.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

Hi you two,<P>I have been away from MB for a while, so you probably aren't familiar with my story...I've been in this muck for a long time and I see so much hope and love here with you both.<P>I think that I have a suggestion. I can understand the mindset of each of you and for the moment how about just setting up some agreements about how to handle the everyday issues and occurrences that come up. Use the POJA principles for this....don't speak long-term goals, expectations, etc. Just look at things like : If I am late coming home - this is the approach we will take in discussing it.......!<P>Or If you want "such and such" for dinner and I want "whatchamacallit" this is how we will resolve it......!!<P>These little "things" have ways of leading to discussions of past resentments and will bring out feelings (if not words) of the past hurt, actions, etc. NOT GOOD!!<P>Cat needs time for self-assessment, so OK that's fine. Afterall, you can't start to examine and identify the problems, good points, and desires for a relationship involving two people if one of them doesn't even know them for themselves - there would not be any way for that person to conceive of how to figure it for two.....Does that make sense?<P>So, start slower.....start with less intensity. BUT do not stagnate in it. USE the time to learn about your own selves and also where your mate fits in.<P>No giving up, no selfishness.....always have consideration of the other's feelings. LEARN from this and put as much as you can of these MB tools as well as a better communication system into place. Those will enable you two to get through this period of transition without hurting and antagonizing each other further.<P>So, what do you think? Is this a plausible solution to start out with?<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Yeah Cat!!!<P>This seems like a step in the right direction to me! Give yourself a pat on the back.<P>Sparkydog - Give her space. She has to WANT to come back for the right reasons (listen to me now, all this advice and my life is still so screwed up I don't know what to do).<P>Counseling would definitely help even if it was separate for now. <P>Hang in there guys! <P>TB

Cat,<P>Good for you!! Regardless of the reason you are doing it, its a big step and you can start to think clearly and for yourself. You just may fall end up saving the marriage with Sparky in the process. I am all for seeing as many marriages saved as possible. My prayers are with you both. Try to be PATIENT with each other there is still a long road either way.But maybe today brings you both a little peace. Prayers are with you. Dana<BR>

IMO you made the right decision. Now your marriage will succeed or fail on its own w/o outside interference.<P>For Cat-No contact, no contact no contact<P>For Sparky-Plan A, PLan A, Plan A<P>How about counseling for you two? Maybe someone who has used S Harley will come along and post their experiences with him.<P>

Sparkydog and Cat,<P>You both have made big decisions here. Scary ones too.<P>Sparky,<P>I think you need to get one of the MEN on the board to be your support system at this point.<P>I don't think any woman here would try to become involved with a MM on this board, but we are all vunerable. I know ! I am afraid to speak to men IRL, for fear he may smile at me and talk to me, (saying something like "Have a good day" might be enough at this point for me). I would be a cooked goose.<P>Cat sounds afraid of this relationship, innocent or not, it makes her uncomfortable. IMHO only, you shouldn't keep on with this.<P>Remember, it's that sort of thing that built up untill I told my bozo I want a divorce.<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Cat's heading to a childcare conference the rest of this week so I guess it's up to me to say thanks to everyone and their kind words and concern.<P>JL<BR>The jets are cooling, thanks. I needed that. just caught up in the emotional uproar right now. we just need to figure out how to proceed.<P>Sheba,<BR>Yes we need to start slow and JL has already advised me to slow down which I will. I know how hard this is going to be on Cat as well as on me and we just need to sloooowww down. <P>TB,<BR>Thanks, pats on the back are accepted at all times. I know she needs something good to come back to, so I'm going to Plan A my heart out. I have seen a counselor a couple of times and Cat has mentioned coming along so there is some hope.<P><BR>Dana,<BR>I think prayers for patience will be the prefered prayers for this ordeal. <P>T_d<BR>Plan A??? But I'm horrible at it. I'll get better w/out OM in the picture.<P>Deb<BR>Thanks, I've already broken it off and am planning the no contact letter, but will let Cat see it before I send it. I understand her fear of this type of relationship and I know I have to do this.<P>Again, everyone thanks and please say a prayer for us. We'll need all we can get. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

hey guys thanks for the help. There is a puter in the lobby, hook up that mouse like an iv line please!!!<P>------------------<BR>Cat<P>catfrommb@yahoo.com

K--wanted to make sure that posted the first one didn't<P>Allen, I have been thinking of this:<P>Why does it threaten you so much for me to want to find myself? <P>I have been filling everyone elses roles and expectations for the past 10 years. Now I want to know why.<P>Why would you want a marriage to someone who doesn't even know herself? <P>You know I could go back because I should, because of guilt, because of the kids, debt, responsibility, and a 100 other things. But why would you want me back unless I could honestly look you in the eyes and say "I want to spend the rest of my life with you"?<P>I need to know who I am and to know I am not going back because I am lonely or scared or guilted. Same with going forward, I need to make the decision for myself, by myself.<P>So here is what I can offer you at this point:<P>I will stop contact.<P>I will tell you if I have contact.<P>I will tell you when I am seriously tempted to have contact.<P>I will understand if that is not enough for you, just let me know and I will proceed as needed.<P><P>------------------<BR>Cat<P>catfrommb@yahoo.com

Allen,<BR>Ok, Plan A is tough. If you can't stay away from lovebusters, you have to work on the positive side of Plan A, which is also working on YOU. Here's a list of books that helped me with better behavior toward Guard & he now says they were effective, even if it took nearly 2 years (oh, that's the bad news):<P>LOVE LIFE FOR EVERY MARRIED COUPLE by Wheat<BR>The FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES by Chapman<BR>WOMEN IN MIDLIFE CRISIS by Conway<BR>HOW TO GET YOUR LOVER BACK by Harris<BR>DIVORCE BUSTING by WEINER-DAVIS<BR>THE 10 SECOND KISS and/or LIGHT HER FIRE by Kriedman<P>Geez, don't just whine about being bad at Plan A, get better. <P>Cat,<BR>You want to work on yourself? GREAT! I know what it is like to simply want some peace in your life and time to figure out how you've gotten where you are, but you've got to know that most betrayers use the words "Need space" to spend more time with OP:<P>TORN ASUNDER by Carder<BR>AFTER THE AFFAIR by Springs<BR>THE DANCE OF ANGER or THE DANCE OF INTIMACY by Lerner <BR>GUILT AND SHAME by Smedes (not sure of exact title, H has the book)<BR>LIGHT HIS FIRE by Kriedman (to be read thinking of Allen)<P>

<BR>Cat and Sparkydog,<P>I posted in another thread to Caterpillar. You two were in the classic Mexican standoff. My view was that Cat needed to end the affair - no ifs, ands or buts about it. Cat needed to go to a "no contact" deal. As the betrayed, Allen has every right to demand that, and Cat has risen to the occaision. Cat, you did the right thing here, and I mean it.<P>Allen, I believe Cat has a legitimate complaint: What you are doing surely looks like an emotional affair. I'm not accusing you of this, but out of sheer respect for your spouse, you should drop the online stuff. We KNOW you're hurting, we KNOW you need support, and we KNOW you want to rebuild your marriage. But continuing with the online stuff isn't going to help rebuild your marriage, its going to alienate Cat. This is a golden opportunity, dude, don't blow it. <P>Cat, while I recognize the inappropriateness of posting private email, it certainly provides a window into your thoughts. I found it painful to read, frankly. It carried an air of, I don't know, exactly, almost contempt, as if your need for "working on you" ignores the agony you are putting your husband through. Be careful what you write, I guess. When you finish working on yourself, and your marriage has been repaired to everyone's satisfaction, stumbling across such language may invoke remorse like you have never known.<P>Bystander

Cat<P>I am totally thrilled by your decision to have no contact. I have read your posts and I know that this is stepping off an unknown cliff for you. Please try to be understanding about your husband's reaction, I know that it is hard. <P>But regardless of what happens now, you have done the right thing. I am now giving you a standing ovation. <P>May the Lord Bless YOu and Keep you<BR>John

Whoo hoo!!! Leave for three days and a remarkable thing happens. Way to Go Cat!!<P>Sparkydog, She does need some space. She's going to go through withdrawal before she can even think about rebuilding your love bank. Just keep rebuilding hers.<P>Prayers are with you.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Caterpillar:<BR><B><BR>So here is what I can offer you at this point:<P>I will stop contact.<P>I will tell you if I have contact.<P>I will tell you when I am seriously tempted to have contact.<P>I will understand if that is not enough for you, just let me know and I will proceed as needed.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now what?????<P>I found out tonight that Cat talked to him yesterday, no notification that she was seriously tempted, no notification that she had contacted him.<P>I admit I don't know the whole story because I had to leave her house before I exploded in front of the kids, and she isn't responding to my email, but how do I go on never knowing if or when she contacts him.<P>It just sickens me when she surrounds herself w/ people who support her in this. One email "friend" told her it was so great of OM to be so supportive of her during this no contact period. Well, what about her husband? Jeez, these people are sick. I just can't go on like this.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

<P>I HAVE stopped contact. I WILL tell you if I contact him again. I will tell you if I am tempted.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Caterpillar (edited March 20, 2000).]

what now??<P>now you start again.....<P>the deadline was misinterpreted....(I understood it as saturday, as well...)<P>try understanding each others' point of view...<P>start now.<P>Cat has agreed to the conditions, Allen, you can try to accept that it starts now.....<P>try to be gentle with each other....<P>Dylan