I just wanted to share what happened with my husband last night.<P>Sometimes, I feel more comfortable talking to him as we are just about to fall asleep. I know, that sounds silly, but it's dark, it's quiet and I don't feel as vulnerable. Anyway, last night I asked my husband if he was happy in our marriage. And, without hesitation, he said, "No." This will sound strange, but I was so relieved to hear him say that! For SEVEN years, I have felt like he didn't notice that we had problems. For SEVEN years, I felt like he didn't care if we had problems or not. For SEVEN years I thought, "I must be nuts! He thinks every thing is fine...what's wrong with me??" He's always so passive and complacent that I was shocked to hear a real response coming from him.<P>So, I asked him what would make him feel happy in our marriage. He said that he would like to have sex. He would like for me to seem glad to see him when he comes home at the end of the day. He said that he'd like to have a wife that's not depressed all the time. He said that he'd like to have joy in our marriage.<P>I told him that I don't appreciate the fact that he has the nerve to ask for sex when he doesn't even try to be affectionate to me or listen to me or talk to me. He ignores me most of the time. Sex??? Nope...don't think so...not right now.<P>He asked me what would make me happy. I said that I would like to be treated like his wife and his friend instead of his child. I told him that I'd like to feel important to him...important enough that he doesn't get into the car first and leave me standing outside. I told him that I'd like to feel like he listens and that he's not constantly ignoring everything that I say (good or bad).<P>My husband said, "You don't love me." I said, "Well, you don't love me...you CARE about me, but you don't love me...we don't have romantic love anymore, and that scares me." I said, "The difference between you and me is that I have the nerve to say that we are in the process of losing our marriage. You are thinking the same thing, you just won't say it." <P>My husband said that he feels like it's a losing battle. He said that he feels like I've built up such a thick wall against him that he couldn't reach me even if he tried.<P>My husband also thinks that this whole mess is his fault. I wouldn't let him carry that burden. The blame belongs to both of us...not just him...not just me.<P>I told my husband that Steve Harley says that people like to say that love is unconditional, but it's really not. My husband was appalled by that idea. He said, "You mean that you don't love me unconditionally?" I said, "If we loved each other 'unconditionally' we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with."<P>This could go on and on and on... <P>Once again, I just wanted to share my thoughts. I consider it to be progress that my husband is now on the same page as I am. He's just as miserable as I am, he just never said anything. It hurts, but at the same time is a huge relief. I'm not losing my mind! <P>Jill<P>

Wow,<BR>How neat to hear a husband open up. I know what you mean by saying the words hurt....but they can make a difference...a change. That is what communication is all about. My H thought communication meant conversation...well it does in a sense...but it is also a way to tell each other your feelings to make things better...not mad. I hope this is just the beginning and that all works out for you and your husband.<BR>Nancy

A lot of your conversation sounds like the conversations my H and I had between the time he told me he wasn't happy (12/27) and the time he told me he thought he was "in-love" with someone else (1/15). <BR>I do think that his opening up and talking about why you are neither happy is progress. <BR>Maybe now you can work together to start meeting each other's needs and becoming happy. It's a first step, anyway!<BR>Kathi

Jill,<BR> Your H just told you that his most important need is for sex and you told him no you will not meet it. Have you read His needs Her needs? Can you work out a plan that he will give you the specific affection you need ie, a hug before bed or a kiss every morning or whatever and you will give him what he needs? Have you filled out the emotional needs questionaire? Sounds like you are communicating your needs to each other and now need a plan to meet them.<BR> Don't let your marriage be over because you don't want to be the one to take the first step. Don't be afraid to be both happy instead of both being miserable. Sounds like you got the most important information from him, now work with it!<BR>Lora

Jill,<P>There is only one kind of love that is unconditional: the love between a parent and child. My daughter could be a murderer or even a politician, I would still love her.<P>With a spouse, there are always conditions, whether spoken or not. That's alright, it's why we take wedding vows, to cement our love in firm principles which underpin the conditions.<P>It sounds like you and your H have started on a good path towards honesty. Good luck and God bless.<P>Kenneth

Jill,<P>I am happy your husband opened up to you. Let me suggest a book I'm reading right now. My marriage is much farther gone than yours, so it might just work for you. The book is called "Divorce Busting" and has some wonderful and unbelievably simple solutions to marital problems. If only I had found this book before it was too late. MB stuff is great too, but this book is easier to do on your own. Best of luck to you.<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Lora:<P>I've been married for 7 years, and my marriage has been in trouble since day one...literally. My husband and I have been in this same rut since the very beginning. <P>I have always been the one to go to counseling on my own. I have always been the one to read marriage books until I want to pull my hair out. I have always been the one to try to take the first step on improving things. Yes, I've read "His Needs/Her Needs". I've read "Love Busters". I'm in counseling with Steve Harley. I've read Dobson and Trent and Swindoll. I was counseled five or six years ago at a Minirth/Meier clinic in Dallas, Texas. I've written my husband love notes. I've made my husband's favorite meals. I've looked my husband in the eye and said, "I admire you. You are a wonderful man. You are important to me." I've watched and attended sporting events with my husband and even tried to ask questions and be interested. I even tried giving my husband "sex on demand" for an entire week -- to meet his needs -- and it was a miserable experience. Sex is about connecting to a person on a physical AND emotional level (or, the last time I checked, that's what sex is supposed to be about). I am physically and emotionally NOT CAPABLE of having sex "just to meet a need". I cannot have sex with a man who ignores me. I cannot have sex with a man who never hugs me (unless he wants sex) or compliments me. I KNOW that sex is a primary need for a man.<P>This time, I can't make the first move anymore. My husband is going to have to do his part. I'm not ready to have sex with him. I'm not "holding out" on purpose just to avoid meeting his needs...I'm just not attracted to him right now. <P>No, we haven't filled out the "needs questionaire", but we did discuss it (which was nice).<P>I can't save my marriage by myself...my husband has to do his part. <P>All of this may sound "harsh", but it's the truth...it's what I'm thinking and how I feel...it's how my life has been for seven years, and I'm beginning to grow weary.<P>Jill

Jill<P>There's a book (I haven't read it yet) called<BR>"Men are clams, Women are crowbars" (sort of in the same theme as Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus".<P>Sounds like your husband (the clam) is beginning to open up. Your newest post to me was depressing and yet could possibly be the first step towards you both going on to wholeness/soundness/completeness in your relationship.<P>I know you to be one who loves the Lord and one who should be familiar with the Word of God. I Cor 7 (the marriage chapter) is very plain when it says "The wife has no rights over her body, but her husband and likewise, the husband has no rights over his body, but his wife. See that you do not refuse one another your due conjugal rights"<P>I said that because you are saying that you are refusing to give yourself in sex to your husband. This could be a sure way to push him into the arms of another woman.<P>He obviously doesn't yet have the insight and revelation that I have gotten through my 4 years+ of separation from my wife; that Sex begins in the kitchen.<P>That a man needs to make sure his wife has meaningful touches and kind words all day long, so that at bedtime, she will be more likely to want to make love.<P>Remember this: animals have sex, but God intended married couples to "make love".<P>Here is something I will pass on to you that my son/his wife learned in a class on His Needs/Her Needs (how to affair proof your marriage).<P>Basically there are 3 stages in a marriage relationship.<P>(1) Intimacy<BR>(2) Conflict<BR>(3) Withdrawal<P>If you have slipped from intimacy into conflict...unless the conflict is resolved; then one or both partners are going to slip into withdrawal.<P>If you are ever going to get back to intimacy, then you can not circumvent (go around) conflict and return to intimacy.<P>You must go back through conflict first to resolve whatever issues caused the withdrawal.<P>Oh boy...this does add a new twist to your ongoing saga.<P>You both desperately need a marriage encounter, marriage retreat or something to put the spark back in before it's too late.<P>[censored] from Texas

Jill,<P>After all of this and you say you cannot tell your H about the affair? Am I missing something here? You have not recovered from that affair and your bitterness about it is spilling over into your marriage. <P>If you truely feel this way about your H, what are you protecting? You are already drawing lines in the sand and saying I will not meet his needs and he doesn't know why you feel this way. He doesn't even know you feel this way. He thinks that you don't love him.<P>How is he going to know that you are carrying this big secret for fear of hurting him? An act that would indicate that you do love him. How is he going to know what needs to be fixed: you more than him about what needs fixing and he could help. Of course he cannot fix what he doesn't understand.<P>I have not been a strong proponent of you telling your H as you know. However, I supposed you were protecting him because you love him. I assumed incorrectly apparently. I also feel your H does suspect your affair and that telling him will hurt but not surprise him.<P>Oh! Jill, what to do with you . Your H opens up and you deny him. You complain about him not opening up and when he does you nail him. "I don't feel like it." What do you feel like doing? Do you feel like saving your marriage? How can he do it when he doesn't even know the state of the marriage or who he is married to? ONLY you know it. If you are going to keep the secret and have a good marriage you are going to have to carry the load of making up for his lack of information. It cannot be a 50/50 split.<P>Please think about this Jill. There is hope because you are communicating, but he is working at a hugh disadvantage and apparently feels pretty hopeless about it.<P>God Bless You and Your H,<P>JL

Hi Jill,<BR> I didn't mean to sound harsh either, just not a good typist so I tend to keep it short.<BR> I hear how frustrated you are about doing all the work in your marriage, but this sounds like a real breakthough for him to be able to open up like that. How I wish my H would be able to have such a discussion with me. I have been reading How one of you can bring the two of you together and it has some really good points of how alot of people feel that they have been doing all the work,but maybe you need to change how you are doing it. Again I am not so good at expressing things, but you might read the book and see if you agree.<BR> Take care of yourself, Lora

Jill,<P>My wife and I recovered and rebuilt our marriage from years and years of neglect and hurt. We saw a counselor jointly about 3 times But mostly we used the guidance found in two books the "His needs, her needs" and one called "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman.<BR>The languages book convinced us we had been trying to show each other love the way we THOUGHT the other needed to hear it. It also showed us how to recognize the 'right language' to use on each other. We truly loved each other so we made a couple of course corrections in our relationship and now our love is stronger than ever.......really. We have been married over 28 years and we have had people actually stop us in the mall now and tell us how happy we look together. I had an invasive surgical procedure and in the recovery room we showed each other such love, affection, and attention that a nurse asked us if we were newly Weds. All I can say is it worked for us. <P>I have read all your posts, I lurk more than I post. You are obviously on the fence yet about what to do in your relationship But I honestly see a desperate hope in the words that you post that your marriage work out. Keep reading and posting here, it's a very hard decision. These people who post here truly feel a similar pain as you. I never felt such pain but if you can get it to work, God it's like being born again.<P>Good luck and God bless.

WOW JILL, you and I could be twin sisters in a lot of the things you have described. I feel more comfortably talking to H at night in bed, in the dark (though it usually turns into an argument). In counseling H said that he loved me but wasn't IN LOVE with me. I was so pissed because that is how I feel about him, but I guess my ego was hurt, thinking "Hey, I can feel that way about our marriage but you can't, after everything you have done to me, YOU SHOULD BE IN LOVE"! But I was so hurt by him finally admitting what I already knew. But, at least you are talking TO one another and not AT one another. My H and I are in counseling now, and things seem to be going well, I just hope it continues. You are off to a great start.

<BR>Jill,<P>While you've read a few marriage books, try the stuff by John Gottman. Its based on longitudinal studies of hundreds of married couples. See, for example, _Why Marriages Succeed of Fail_ and his recent book, _The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work_. They are both very good, and discuss in explicit detail how women need to be respected and loved for sex to happen. You are NOT crazy here, your experience is normal. That said, you need to realize that you aren't meeting your husband's need for sex and this is, bluntly, putting your marriage at risk. Talk about how you can each meet each other's needs, but my hunch is that its you, Jill, who is going to have to make the first move on this...(Gottman notes that its usually women who bring up the emotional "hot" issues...sound familiar???).<P>Bystander

Someone asked me what I feel like doing (do I feel like saving my marriage? etc.)<P>Well, what do I FEEL like doing? I feel like packing a bag and leaving. I've felt like that for SEVEN years, but I haven't left yet.<P>Do you know what I feel when my husband touches my hand?? NOTHING. But, I'm supposed to "make love" with him?? How sick would that be?? Prostitutes have sex with people that they don't care about...the last time I checked, I'm not a prostitute (an adulterer, but not a prostitute).<P>And, you know what? I'm tired of babying my husband through all of this stuff. I'm tired of saying, "It's not your fault." I'm tired of wearing the hat of the bad guy when my husband gets to wear the hat of the good guy.<P>My husband shares his feelings on one night, and all of a sudden, he gets a cookie and a gold star. I've been begging and crying and sharing for seven years and what do I get?? I get the bad guy hat.<P>If my husabnd came home right now and told me he wanted a divorce, I'd probably say, "Okay."<P>I'm just really, really tired. <P>Jill<P><BR>

If you have been unhappy since Day 1. Then WHY have you stayed married for seven years?<P>I just don't get those here who talk about how they have never been happy and yet they have stayed married for years!!

T_d<P>It's really quite simple. When you say "I do" you feel like a failure to later say "I don't". You feel guilty, selfish, frightened,etc. Especially if your spouse is a really good person. You feel like you owe it to them to keep trying. So... you just keeping trying and hoping and trying and hoping.... But then the hoping isn't enough, you start trying a little less hard... Crisis sets in. Then you really have to take a long hard look and decide whether it's worth it for both of you to try and hope any longer. After that much time has passed, it's hard to give up, but it's hard to keep going, too. You feel torn, emotionally drained, extremely tired.<P>*sigh* I'm tired, too.

Hey!<BR> Just for the record, I'm NOT awarding him a gold star! It is a good thing that he's opening up...it remains to be seen if he'll earn a gold star!!!<BR> As for sex, I agree that you cannot be expected to make yourself have sex w/o feeling. You and your H need to continue to talk, to open up and share and hopefully learn to meet each other's needs. Having sex with him JUST to meet his need when you do not want to DOES NOT come under POJA.<BR> Just my 2cents..<BR>Kathi

TS:<P>I do not believe any one of us will stay in a situation or continue to behave in a certain way unless we are getting something out of it; some sort of emotional satisfaction sometimes even negative satisfaction.<P>Also it seems that "I've never been happy" line is spoken many times by betrayers to justify their affairs. <P>Since Jills affair has been over for awhile I don't know if it is clouding her view of her H or not. I don't know if her H is really a good person or not. Or if she has other reasons for being unhappy for 7 years

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I do not believe any one of us will stay in a situation or continue to behave in a certain way unless we are getting something out of it; some sort of emotional satisfaction sometimes even negative satisfaction.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How about stability and security?<BR>

T_d:<P>Read some of my previous posts and you will see that when I use the phrase, "I've never been happy", I am not at all trying to justify my affair...<P>Read and see for yourself...<P>By the way...what's YOUR story? I didn't see anything under your profile. Just curious.<P>Jill<p>[This message has been edited by Jill (edited March 02, 2000).]