Dear Jill,<P>"Wow" if my H had said those things to me,I would have been all over him. <P>Ok so it has taken 7 years to tell you,but bottom line is that he did tell you. [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<P><BR>I too find that the only time I like to talk is at night...in the dark....in bed.I am glad I'm not the only one that does this.<P>I think that all of us can relate to these issues.The main Q is that DO YOU LOVE THIS MAN,AND WANT TO FIGHT FOR A FUTURE TOGETHER?<P>Back in Oct,My H and I were ready to kill eachother,I had had it and I put ALL THE BLAME ON HIM.I had nothing to do with this.<BR>I now relize that my ACTIONS became his RE-ACTIONS and so the cycle begins. [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]<P>I think that the biggest thing is COMMUNICATION,If you havn't read Giver and Taker,by Dr Farley than I suggest you get it.<BR> [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>"The times when you don't want to do something is the time that it is the most important to do it!!!":0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0<P>Just my opion but I think that letting your brain do the work (not your heart.)and positive afformations,telling yourself that you love him....want him.....desire him....In the end of the day you will feel that way and you will want to have sex.(at least that worked for me.) [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<P>Take care of yourself, shave regularly and allways stay fresh and showered,maybe new perfume,new hairstyle,some new clothes,some sexy night gowns wearing no underware to bed.I have done all of this and it put me in a different frame of mind.All of wich was a positive direction towards my H.<P>Loving someone is showing them and telling them wether you are getting anything in return or not.(I have found that telling my H this and showing him, this has made him move in a more positive direction.<BR>He is s..l..o..w..l..y,showing me in his own little way that he is trying and I have Let him know how much I admire him and respect him for sticking it out. I believe that this has helped.<P>I don't want this to sound harsh so don't take that way ok. [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<P>Bottom line is that your H told you what it is that would make him happy,you did ask.<BR>You can either meet it and possibly have a future together.Or not and have him get it from some where eles.<BR>Me personally I would never want my H getting it from some one else so we,as women need to do whatever it takes to meet their needs.<BR>In the end if you are not still happy than you know that you did everything to try to make it work.Thats all any of us can do.<P>I hope this helps,Trust me I know how frustrating this can be.I am actually kinda jelious in the fact that at least your H told you.(mine is a big clam.)I am still guessing.<P>Lots of luck [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>Let us know how it goes.

TS: Well I think you just agreed with me?<BR>You are getting something out of your unhappy situation. ( I saw your posts on the other thread) Your marriage and/or relationship is meeting your emotional need for stability and security. You are getting some satisfaction from that otherwise you would not stay.<P>Jill must be getting something from her H. <P><BR>

Stable and secure do not necessarily add up to happy.

Hi Jill,<BR> I have been reading your posts because you are one of the few female betrayers like myself on the forum.<P>I can hear your anger and pain with regard to your H- and it comes back to the whole concept that people would not have affairs if their needs were being met in their marital relationship. Of course- that is no excuse for what we betrayers do- but that is a huge piece of the pie and your H was not doing his part with regards to your marriage.<P>That said....I cannot imagine that you and your H will have any chance of a true recovery while you have this huge weight on your shoulders- the fact that you had an affair. It seems like you and H have alot of issues anyway to deal with- but unless all the cards are on the table how can you even begin?<P>My H has repeatedly told me that it was not so much my affair that hurt..so much as it was the deceit and lies. And I can also say that I do feel better and that we have a better chance of some kind of future because he knows everything.<P>I wish you luck......<P>

Jill:<P>I wasn't speaking about you specifically. It just seems to be one of those thing betrayers say.<P>I guess I was just questioning why you would stay married for 7 years if you were so unhappy. Or anyone for that matter?<BR>Like I said to TS there must be something you are getting out of your marriage.<P>Maybe whatever that something is you could use that as a starting point for rebuilding.

Jill,<P>Your post here today seems to contradict most of what you've written. I can understand the emotional rollercoaster, but this has confused me on what you really want. Do you want to leave or do you want to work it out? Your posted awhile back the thread "I'm so starved for my husband's adoration and approval...yet I know I'm not "worthy" . In this thread you talked about how your H gave you a compliment and how you felt guilty for denying sex. Now you are saying that the thought of having sex with him is sick. And comparing it to a prostitute. Jill, I am by know means trying to ridicule you, I just want to understand what you want. He opened up to you last night and yes, sometimes it's not what we want to hear, but at least he is being honest! You said: "I'm tired of wearing the hat of the bad guy when my husband gets to wear the hat of the good guy." To whom of which do you appear to be the bad guy. No one knows of your affair. Sounds like your guilt speaking again, because I know none of us here sees you as the'bad guy'. Yes your H has contributed to the status of your marriage, no doubt about it. But if you both are stubborn about the fact of making the first move your marriage will continue toward destruction. IMHO I think you need to swallow your pride, tell him of you affair and work from there. I too played(for lack of a better word) the role(after my affair) of not wanting to be with H due to having needs unmet and being emotionally deprived. But deep down you are only doing this because you feel what you did outweighs anything he has ever done, and in my opinion that is not the case. What you did and what he did have both contributed. Jill, you love your H and this obvious,otherwise I really don't think you'd be here. Once again, I do not mean to sound judgemental, God knows I can't throw any stones <P>My prayers are with you as always!<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Jill, <P>All I can tell you right now is to vent and express all of your negative emotions here, but don't do them to your husband. After reading lots of your posts, I really believe what you said earlier about how you have really made a mistake and love your husband. <P>You also said that during the development of the relationship with the OM that you spoke to him of your husband's shortcomings and that magnified them in your mind. I think that this is really what is happening now. <P>Sometimes, if I have made a mistake in my marriage, I find myself pointing out mistakes that my wife has made. I assume that I do this in order to subconsciously feel better about my own mistake. Could this be what is happening to you now? I suggest that you begin to catch your husband doing good things and consciously force yourself to focus on those. <P>Even if your husband does not know about the betrayal, he knows that something is wrong. I am not trying to upset you and if this statement is offensive, I apologize in advance. You have shared the most intimate part of yourself with another man, yet you refuse to share it with your husband. This indicates that there are very deep problems. I think I remember that you mentioned that Steve Harley had strongly suggested that you share your infidelity with your husband. His background qualifies him to make judgments and you have probably shared much more with him than with the rest of us. Therefore, since this is obviously affecting your marriage, I think you should seriously consider taking his advice. <P>I have read your words of remorse and my personal opinion is that holding back your mistake from your husband is just like a wall keeping you from being truly intimate with your husband. No woman wants to make love with a man who is not intimate with her. Also, remember, it is not sex that husbands want from their wives, it is intimacy. Since many men's most deep expression of intimacy is sex, your husband may be attempting to be intimate with you in the only way he knows how. <P>Every situation is different, but after reading your posts, you don't sound like the kind of person who could be intimate without revealing this to your husband. This is just my opinion.<P>May the Lord Bless YOu and Keep You.<BR>John

First, nobody has "rights" over anyone's body. It really makes me ill when I hear about so-called men's "need" for sex. Well, if he just needs something to stick it into, buy him a blow-up doll and paste your face onto it!! <P>I also resent the idea that if you don't spread-em for the hubby whenever he wants that you are "pushing him" into the arms of some other woman. Yea, ok, some slut, I guess. And what would that make him?<BR>Ok, I'm done venting.<P>Some people are telling you that this is the time to tell your H about your affair. I say it is the absolute worst time, unless you decide you want your marriage to end. Your H already says he's unhappy. So confessing is gonna make him feel better? or somehow show how his ill treatment of you has ended up? Doubt it. If that were the case, he would have listened to you before your affair. Please keep in mind, the only people who are advising you to confess are those who had things work out in their favor (mostly betrayed, I'm guessing). I just don't want to see anyone go through what I did, that's all. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 02, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>Does that mean that womens need for communication, affection, etc is just as silly? Men really don't need to heed these needs in woman? Men can just grunt demand dinner on the table and move on? Come on! <P>It is not the physical act as much as the emotional aspect of this that she is railing against. She cannot stand his touch, she claims. Back off some will you. <P>The sex drive is one of the primal drives in human beings. It is the cause of marriage for it leads to off spring and the need to protect them. You know that as well as I.<P>It seems Jill's problem is not the act as much as the thought of the act. Someone just posted this above our posts and very correctly, it is an act of intimatcy, and she is rejecting it.<P>Geez TS give us guys a little break here . <P>By the way how are you doing?<P>Take care and God Bless,<P>JL<P>

Yes, there are days that I want to stay and work on my marriage, but there are also days that I would like to leave. Today is an "I want to leave" day. Today is an "I'm exceptionally depressed" day. Am I allowed to deviate from being "Pollyanna" every now and then?? I'm just admitting here that I'm tired and I'm lonely and I'm fed-up today. Just because I WANT to pack a bag and leave doesn't mean that's what I will do. Sure, I'll keep plugging along and making the first move to improve things, just as I've done for SEVEN years. I just need a place to vent...I'm VENTING. Is that okay??? <P>Once again, what I share here barely scratches the surface of what has gone on in my marriage in the past and what is going on right now.<P>Someone suggested that I should get a new look, shave regularly, smell nice, buy nice lingerie, etc.<P>Well, I shave regularly...who likes prickly legs? I sure don't. I update my look regularly. Who wants to be stale and out of style? I smell great, even if I do say so, myself. I enjoy nice perfumes and "smell-good" lotions and bath gels. I have new clothes. I have terrific lingerie, though I won't go to bed without underwear on (the house could catch on fire...who wants to be found unconscious from smoke inhalation with no undies on?? I don't. ) <P>So, I have smooth legs. I smell great. I have a cool hairstyle. I have some nifty lingerie. I have a smorgasbord of perfumes and other "smell good stuff". And, none of that makes me want to hop into bed and give my husband sex when I feel NOTHING. <P>It would be nice if my husband didn't clip his toenails in front of me. It would be nice if he didn't smack his food. It would be nice if he smelled terrific. It would be nice if he were considerate and didn't ask me to check his nose for "boogers" before we walked into a building. It would be nice if I didn't have to experience the wrath of his overwhelming flatulence in bed.<P>Once again, I can't put forth all of the effort. And, yes, I've told him in VERY nice and subtle ways that the above listed annoyances make me want to knock myself in the head with a hammer. But, to no avail...I'm still a victim of flatulence, toenail clippings and boogers...and let's not forget the smacking.<P>And, yes...if my husband points out one of my annoying behaviors, I correct it immediately...I don't continue to torture him with that behavior.<P>So, I admit that I'm sexually dead right now. My husband could come streaking through this room right now, and I wouldn't feel the slightest hint of "I must have him now".<P>I admit that I'd just like to see some effort in return for a change.<P>I admit that I'm tired today.<P>Jill (you know, the non-Pollyanna)

Jill <P>Everyone is entitled to a non-Pollyanna day. Just try to have them here. <P>In regard to your husband's annoying behaviors 1) Remind him gently, we men are really forgetful, and 2) Try some positive reinforcement, example, if he goes for 30 minutes without doing these things, hand him a quarter, and tell him he has not expelled hazardous gas for 30 min. I know this sounds really silly, but I once did this with a co-worker who would not stop using obscene language and I stopped him in one week. Every day, make the time intervals a little longer. All you are doing is acknowledging positive behavior. <P>Also, do whatever it takes to keep positive thoughts about your husband in the forefront of your mind at all times. Refuse to indulge in any negative thoughts. I really think you can change your mental attitude this way. <P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You.<BR>John

Jill your remark about feeling like a prostitute if you made love with your husband is pretty sick. You had an affair in which you made love to a strange man which would have earned you the title of "wh**e" and yet you look at making love to your husband as something sleazy. Shame on you. Open up your heart and break down that wall that you put up and show your husband that you love him. The chances are that as your spouse he probably has an intuitive feeling that you cheated on him. By continuing to reject him you are still behaving the same way as you did during your affair. In my experience I have found that feelings follow actions. If you choose to feel love for someone (as you did for your affair partner) you will over a period time learn to be in love with that person. Look at your husband as someone to be treasured and nutured not some "john" who you are fuc**ng" You may have problems but with patience and commitment you can correct these problems and have a better marriage.

Max, <P>You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but please don't insult Jill this way. She has expressed extreme remorse over her actions, and I believe that she really wants to save her marriage, even though she may be a little depressed today. <BR>

JL,<BR>I'm aware that alot of men date and marry for reliable sex, and alot of women marry for companionship, stability, and affection. <P>They've got it all wrong. Men should be marrying other men (cause then they'd have lots and lots of sex), and women should be marrying other women (cause they'd have lots of emotional bonding). <P>I think we're talking about a chicken and egg thing here. Intimacy comes FIRST, then SEX. Unless he does what she wants first to create intimacy, he doesn't get sex. If he wants sex without intimacy, then he can get a divorce and start going to prostitutes. They don't expect anything from their clients except money. Simple.<P>jill can't stand to touch him because it sounds like he just flops into bed and "goes for the gold" after he's treated her like a non-person all day. Oh joy. I don't think she needs to be the one who makes the first move either, like "i'll let you use my body and HOPE you'll treat me like a human being". Good luck. She'll just end up hating herself more.

Jill,<P>Down Days??? Surely you jest? <BR>Of course you are allowed down days. Just that sometime people on the other end of the tube can tell when these are down days or some significant turn of events. And as you can tell you have quite a following here <P>We want to see you succeed and be happy in your marriage. That is all. Now you also know that people here are not sugar coating their advice. You are getting the straight dose , but that doesn't mean we are angry or don't care.<P>Get some rest and we'll "see" you tomorrow.<P>JL

Dear Jill,<P>It is a terrible cycle.<BR>The men can't show affection when they don't feel appreciated or admired.....we can't be intimate with them when we don't get affection.I know that you see my point.<P>A couple of months back I had a conversation with my MI,I was trying to see the good and positive side of all of this.I have worked my [censored] off for this family and what do I get in return nothing but attitude,about what wasn't done,But we are supose to say "Oh...thank...you...honey...so...much...for...taking...out...the...trash.Please!!<BR>But we do it to show our men our appreciation and in return they show us the affection we need and then in return,so one and so one.<P>I do understand that you don't want or even can't have sex with your H.With very good reasons.<P>For a couple of years now I had let the resenment build up and the only time I ever saw any affection if you could call it that was my H grabing and goosing me in the kitchen when the kids are running around the house...real romantic ugh.So what did I do but to push him away and reject him and push him further into withdrawl.<P>Thank you for leting me vent a little.<P>Communication is the key.<BR>The suggestions here are just that.<BR>I found in my self the things that I was not doing,and in return ha<P>I only hope that it is not to late to gain my H respect and love back.

Hi Jill,<BR>I posted at the end of your thread last night but don’t know if you ever went back to read it. If not, please do. If you did, but nothing seemed to fit your needs, all I can say is “Oh well, shoot.”<P>Reading this post brought to mind some other questions. Most of your respondents have picked up on the “sex” part (or lack thereof) of your post. I saw a few other things. <P> You said, “last night I asked my husband if he was happy in our marriage. And, without hesitation, he said, "No."<P>Did that really surprise you? No one can be happy in a marriage where there is no intimacy, verbal or sexual. If you have not been happy the odds are he has not been happy either. The fact that he answered your question honestly is the first indication I have heard that he may not be a hopeless cause after all.<BR> <BR>“So, I asked him what would make him feel happy in our marriage. He said that he would like to have sex.”<P>Did that really surprise you? A most primal need for men, and women, too. Sex, the ultimate expression of union, connection and intimacy. You want more too, don’t you? Maybe not with the image of the man you perceive him as now, but you are feeling the void. Did you take the opportunity to validate his sharing of this and admit you missed it too?<P>“He would like for me to seem glad to see him when he comes home at the end of the day.” <P>Read Ellen Kriedman’s “Ten Second Kiss” This is where his need for admiration comes in. You mentioned somewhere that you “have” used advice from books you’ve read and counselors you’ve visited through the years. Were there never any positive “reactions” in his behavior as a result? I think that we tend to “stop” using techniques that are working because we expect different reactions, never giving the reactions we want the time to grow into real habits, either in our partner or our self.<P> “He said that he'd like to have a wife that's not depressed all the time.” <P>Are you depressed all the time? I was. Welbutrin helped me immensely to realize the depression that was clouding my reactions to life. <P>“He said that he'd like to have joy in our marriage.” <P> Isn’t that what you want, too? Did you validate his wish and ditto it? What was your mindset as he was opening up to you? Were you angry, fearful or simply a sounding board? Was the point of the conversation to “hear” him or to be “heard” by him? Sometimes, it has to be decided that only one or the other be the objective. <P>“He asked me what would make me happy. I said that I would like to be treated like his wife and his friend instead of his child. I told him that I'd like to feel important to him...important enough that he doesn't get into the car first and leave me standing outside. I told him that I'd like to feel like he listens and that he's not constantly ignoring everything that I say (good or bad).”<P>You did not say how he reacted to these statements. Did he “hear” you? Did he validate your statements?<P>Next time you find yourself opening the door to a level 4 conversations maybe try to identify the objective of the conversation first. One conversation will not turn your marriage around, but if he can be made aware of a simple, short term objective to reach for in these type conversation, those moments may just grow into more enjoyable and even problem solving sessions.<P>That’s all for now. Just thought I would throw you some food for thought. <BR>Good Luck<BR>Sincerely,<BR>Beth<BR>

"A most primal need for men, and women, too. Sex, the ultimate expression of union, connection and intimacy."<P>Sex CAN be an expression of all the above, under the right circumstances. Too many people (mainly men) want to take the short cut. I don't think women need to "lower the bar" on their expecations. Alot of men primarily have their emotional needs met through sex, because they don't know any other way. Which is more healthy? A) Encouraging a man to express and receive love by other means besides sex, or B) encouraging women to have sex without love? Last time I checked, giving or recieving a hug or a kind word did not pass STD's or cause unwanted pregnancy. <P>No person, man or woman, should be encouraged to have sex under any condition that they are not emotionally connected, married or not. Our society tells men (and increasingly more women) that doing so is ok. Furthermore,alot of women are tired of carrying the emotional dead-weight in the marriage. Check out this month's article from Harley about the "Who wants to marry a multi-millionare" fiasco.