I'm trying to remember how many of us are in the same situation as me, with a spouse that won't admit to an affair, says it is nothing or they are just friends? I think there is a few of us right? <BR>

I am raising my hand.

Me too. My W says they are "just real close friends" and that they have decided to date after they both get seperated. Guess she doesn't consider sneaking off to the movies or staying out till 4 in the morning with him "dating".

Count me in that category!<P>My wife gets upset when I use the word "affair" to describe her relationship with the OM. She says it is just a friend that she can talk to. I guess when you sneak around, have phone bills totaling over $1500 in the past six months, countless number of phone cards, and countless lies about seeing and talking to the OM is a way of showing your "friendship" to another person! I wish somebody would have told me I was supposed to be doing this with my friends too!<P>Sorry for sarcasm...having a bad day.<P>Doug<BR>

Lora,<P>What a place to be. For me, I KNOW she is having an affair and every time I ask she lies. It seems I am at least neck high in LIES. She lies to me, she lies to the OM and everyone else. It is like everyone gets told the story she thinks they want to hear.<P>T2

Lora-<P>I will say that they both claimed the "just friends" part for a long time. Actually, they were friends that couple was our best friend couple--whatever-- anyway...they started out as friends and I think that is what muddies the waters for so many people, the line gets so blurred they don't see themselves crossing it. So many times opposite sexes start becoming too close of friends and that is where our human-ness gets us in trouble.<P><BR>In my case, they tried to stop several times when they thought things were getting too close but by leaving me in the dark of course we kept doing things together as friends so the contact was always there.<P>Everyone within earshot---LISTEN UP!!!<BR>No Contact. It's the only solution.<P>Finally when all contact was stopped and I was aware of the situation, things have gotten so much better. My H now realizes he was giving her my part of his need meeting ability. Now that I have that back, I can effectively meet his needs and what do you know---it works!<P>The road of life still has a few potholes but at least the big obstacles are out of the way.

Count me in too!<P>My H also calimed that he and OP were only friends. He had an EA. I think the whole idea behind an EA is that no sex makes it ok.<P>I am glad his affair was only emotional. I believe him on this point but I also think it made it easier for him to lie to me becase he was lying to himself about the extent of the relationship too.<P>He lied to me for a year about it until I finally found a note from her. In hind sight I am glad I found it. Now we can face our problems and try to work them out. <P>Acacia

Student wife, Brent, Doug and T2,<BR> Yup, do you think they are lieing to themselves too? Do they really not see that this is more than friendship? I know mine is like, since we are having problems he has this friend to talk to. I'm not sure he gets that talking to her is part of why we are having problems!<P>Duck and Weave,<BR> How did you get them to agree to no contact when they were just friends? Seems like we are seen as crazy for nagging about this issue. After all they are just friends, what kind of controling spouse won't let their spouse have a friend?<P>Acacia,<BR> Was the note you found totaly undeniable? I have found things too, but they still get explained away as part of this friendship. <P>Just trying to find answers on how to move beyond this stage. I'm not sure Marriage builders has them.They want discovery to start rebuilding the marriage. Anyone else out there who has a solution? Anyone else who Plan A worked for even with spouse never admitting to anything?<BR>Lora

Well, it worked for me, but my H wasn't as emotionally involved as yours is, and I think that after he got fired from the job where they worked together, it kept things from getting any more intense.<P>Every situation is different. And I do think they lie to themselves, that if it's no sex it's OK, and that it's just friends. And by the time they realize it's otherwise, it's too late.<P>The biggest problem is the complete lack of respect that it shows when they absolutely refuse to recognize any legitimacy to your concerns. That's what bothered me the most. I ended up writing a 2-page letter, single-spaced, edited 6 times and run by 3 friends (and this board) about what made this friendship different from his other friendships with women. The letter was calm, rational, un-accusing, and explanatory. He was somewhat angry about the letter, and he still said I was completely off-base, but I did notice that he seemed more concerned with my feelings afterward. We saw Dragon Lady at a party we went to and she treated us like a couple for the first time. I suspect he talked to her about her attitude towards him. She's called the house once since then, but that's it.<P>However, he never used the word "love" about her, even in a friendly sense.

Lora-<BR>Well, therein lies the problem. They agreed to no contact after I found out. They were at the point that they did realize it was more than friends because they had planned to leave their families and run away together.<P>I guess the point I was trying to make is that when they first thought of it as getting to be more than just friends and they tried to back off they should've realized they couldn't go backwards and just let me in on the little secret and we could've cut ties and got on with recovery about a year earlier. The pain would've probably been the same but at least I wouldn't have felt like it could've been stopped sooner.<P>I wonder if there has ever been a successful case of friendship going over the line then backing up and just actually being "just friends" again? I don't think it is possible. That emotion is just too strong. If I didn't mention it before it was an EA not PA but I think the underlying emotion is still just as stronger if perhaps, not stronger.

Lora, I'm jumping out of my chair! yes, here too, (see my profile for story). H involved w married BestFriend - he has told me it's not an affair, that I'm crazy (hence the Bellevue Belle pen name). I do act crazy sometimes. Want to exchange stories? Bellevue Belle @aol.com. <P>Today I ran into a friend at the library, we talked a minute or two, then he casually mentioned that he saw my H in Starbucks last night buying a hot mocha cocoa for our son. Only problem is son and I were 3 hours away at an amusement park with schoolmate. The drink is OW's favorite beverage! My face went numb, maybe went white or red, it just started doing this buzzing like the second a wasp stings you and before it really starts to hurt. <P>The friend in the library doesn't know anything about our problems, but his wife did have affairs on him before their divorce. (with "friends") Maybe that's why he read my expression. This guy looked at me and immediately said "I'm sorry". My face changes color and expression before I can control it. I lost my voice (I'd never make it in the spy business, my whole persona flashes when I'm in crisis). I croaked "Gotta go - See you later". <P>I had been visiting the library looking for Harley's books, and others about working on marriage. It was a quick stop on the way to the marriage counselor, where we had an appointment. Hiding back in the shelves, I held onto a shelf, felt my face continuing numb, thought I was going to be fine, but gasping for air. <P>As long as I don't know about him seeing her, I can pretend it's not happening. He tactfully doesn't bring up her name though they talk at work, e-mail, and I know he's stopped by her office on the way home. By the time I arrived at the counselor's office, my arms and hands were tingling toward being numb, I was breathing shallow and swallowing a lot. <P>We saw each other in the parking lot, and I was too dizzy to get out of the car, could hardly get key out of ignition. I raved at him. Nuclear blast. He responds with "You're going to destroy our son with a divorce because I bought a friend some coffee!" and in that vein. <P>These "friendships" are destructive, insidious, cruel. He complains that they can't get together for her kids' confirmation, graduation, other life ceremonies. The line between friendship and love is fuzzy. This post went on forever; sorry.<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited April 29, 2000).]

My wife is having a PA and she knows that I know and yet when I used the A word a couple of weeks ago ( a major LB)she said it was not an A. She has rationalized the situation that since she moved out she has absolved herself of any responsibility in our marriage. Deep down and at night or other times when she is alone the quilt must be extraordinary!<P>Love and Prayers to all!<P>J W

I've got my hand in the air too...<P>X claimed they were "only friends", even the twinky claimed it.... she even told me (and him too) that she wanted us to work it out. But, actions speek louder than words... Staying at work for 5 or 6 (sometimes more) hours after closing... together, alone. Her H might have bought it, or he was too stoned to care. Even when I told them point blank that what they were doing was tearing us further appart. <P>He still, to this day (even after divorce) denies it. I don't ask, I don't care anymore... but he somehow manages to sneek it in.<P>Thoughts & Prayers to all,<BR>Butterfly<P>------------------<BR>There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. <BR>-- John Oliver Holmes<P>The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.<BR>-- Elie Wiesel<P><BR>

[<BR>I guess I didn't notice this post when it first came up, but it seems to have came back to life and I wanted to add my 2 cents. My H also is in complete denial, along with not wanting to have anything to do with me. His EA or PA is with someone who used to be my "friend". Now she is called the "family friend", only I can't call her or stop by her house. I am not welcome at her house, and she had the police stop by my house to say that I was making "harassing" phone calls to her. My husband claims that nothing has ever happened and tries to imply that I am crazy. I think that he thinks since they haven't told anyone, nobody will ever know. He claims that we have no marriage, and I claim that we would if she wasn't around. He seems to have forgotten the voice mail messages she had left him reminding him that she loves him. He meets with her at least 5 days a week, and he is in constant phone contact with her. I never want to have another "family friend" for the rest of my life!<BR>

Goodness, I thought this thread was long gone. Lots of us out there in the same situation hum? I hope we all get through it.<P> I don't usually read Cosmo, but this month there was an article about the new type of affair that men are having. They say that men will go as far as oral sex and still deny its an affair. I think maybe we can thank our President for helping this along.<P>Belle, <BR> My email is Lorabell13 @aol.com if you want to email me. Funny how if they put some of that energy into the marriage instead of the friendship, it would probably help alot.<P>

Belle,<BR> I think that I would be wanting to ask my H why he felt he had to lie to the friend about buying a drink for your son....if he's not having an affair.<P> My H finally admitted to a 1-night stand after 13 years (yes, I knew..because he brought home the STD to prove it!), but still denies that anything was going on with him and a casual "friend" a couple of years ago. Yes, I do believe he ended the relationship; but, I can't help thinking that by denying the affair, he's protecting her from me, and that hurts. I don't think so much about the 1-night stand anymore, although it still hurts when I do. I think his denials are what's keeping me from fully healing.

Lies, manipulation and minimization are the "neccessary" components of a betrayers mental makeup to get into, maintain and justify an affair. My spouse left me with the usual "I just want to be alone, there is no one else" after her affair had progressed for several years. She consistently denied there was anyone else during the affair. After we got back together "It wasn't sexual" and now it's "I really didn't care for him like I cared for you". <P>I think Dazed and Confused hit the nail squarely on the head with:<P>"THE BIGGGEST PROBLEM IS THE LACK OF RESPECT THAT SHOWS WHEN THE BETRAYER REFUSES TO RECOGNIZE THE LIGITAMCY OF OUR CONCERNS." <P>Well phrased.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweetpea:<BR>[B]Belle,<BR> I think that I would be wanting to ask my H why he felt he had to lie to the friend about buying a drink for your son....if he's not having an affair.<BR>Dear Sweetpea, My H didn't actually see the friend/neighbor who saw him buying the drink. Sorry that's not clear. The friend/neighbor said "I saw your H in Starbucks last night buying a mocha cocoa for your son!" When I saw my H in the parking lot near the marriage counselor's office 10 minutes later, I asked how the OW enjoyed her cocoa mocha. (And I turned into a harpy, major LB). It came out later that H never noticed or saw friend/neighbor, and therefore never talked to him. I jumped to that conclusion. The neighbor jumped to the conclusion that the cocoa drink was for our son, and offered the information to me in friendly chitchat. Sorry this was unclear. However, H has been evasive, secretive about a lot of his contact with this woman for years. <P><BR>I'm just glad I'm so slow on the uptake, as far as knowing what to say, that I didn't blurt out to the friend/neighbor "That wasn't for our son; it was for his enamorata, he knew we'd be out late and took advantage of our absence to get in a visit." But I guess my face (wish I knew which color it turned) told the story.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Butterfly, the OW is also, according to my H, heartbroken that he & I can't "work it out" (So is her man!?!?) Yes, I agree, actions speak louder than words. I am really curious what they talk about when they IM each other...<P>My H started in Oct. admitting that they were close friends, just buddies, then... there was a bond, then infatuation/fantasy, now "in love". As far as I know, no significant PA yet, but, major EA and he claims that our problems are completely separate from the relationship with her. I wondered if I was the only one but obviously, I'm not!<P>A female acquaintance who I have not seen in months just left my house and she asked me how we were doing. I said "one day at a time" and she told me that my H told her man a few months ago that he had done something really stupid. Funny, he has not once admitted to me that he ever considered what he started as something "stupid". In fact, now he says "It is a good thing. It makes him happy." This acquaintance started crying when I calmly told her that as much as I love him, I need to do what's good for me now. I must say that if it were not for this site and the support and advice I have gotten, I don't think I could have been so sincerely calm with her. She said she admired my strength! I said I'm not that strong but I am tired of crying and feeling helpless so I am changing. It felt true as I said it so thank you all!!<P>Dazed and COnfused. Now that my H does use the word "love", when he refers to OW, it does hurt more.... Maybe he is in it much further than I imagine.... That is why I want to see what they exchange on IM. Is that an unhealthy desire? I just don't know... It probably conflicts with Plan A but isn't it better to know as much as possible and be able to see things as clearly as possible? Or, are those words on the screen just another example of an addict saying whatver he/she needs to say to get the next "fix"??

Dear Hannah, I'm piggybacking on your post to Butterfly, it's close to the history of disclosure my H had about his EA.<P>[QUOTE]"My H started in Oct. admitting that they were close friends, just buddies, then... there was a bond, then infatuation/fantasy, now "in love". As far as I know, no significant PA yet, but, major EA and he claims that our problems are completely separate from the relationship with her. I wondered if I was the only one but obviously, I'm not!"<P>H and OW were "friends and confidantes, Best Friends, I've never had a Best Friend in my life before" to admission "Yes, I'm in love, but it's not the way you mean it." <P>This type of doublespeak makes me feel like a lunatic.<P>And of course, the problems in our marriage have nothing to do with their growing friendship. rolleyes:<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess