1) Marrying a conflict avoider<BR>2) Marrying someone who thinks everyone else gets a better deal financially than he does<BR>3) Plan A<BR>4) Still loving the man I thought he once was. He said that people's basic personalities don't change, and I think he is right. He was probably always selfish, narcissistic, and incapable of feeling guilt.<BR>6) Being dependent on a man financially. Even though I believe it is better for young children to be home with a parent, I regret not working full-time throughout my adult life. He knows he has power over me - he can stop paying child support or reduce it whenever he feels like it, and he knows that I am the one who will have to pay a lot of money to take him to court over it. He knows that I am not in as good a position to pay a lawyer big bucks as he and the OW are. <BR>7)Loving another adult. It is not worth it. Even if the last 25 years had been full of nothing but ectasy, it would not have been worth it.<P><BR>Plan A may work well when the betraying spouse is remorseful or even on the fence. It is counter-productive when they are filled with narcissistic rage. <P>As time goes on, he has become more and more angry, and more and more selfish. He has made it clear that the OW's feelings are more important than those of the kids. He has done things just to spite me that have benefited no one, not even himself.

Nellie1,<P>I'm kind of new to this myself, but I ask myself about those same mistakes. We have been married for 11 years and have 3 young children. My H is a conflict avoider also.<P>I am trying plan a despite the fact that he moved out 3 weeks ago. My H was a wonderful husband and devoted dad until one day BOOM. this was following a trip with OP (work) I won't even explain the OP it would take too long. Suddenly becoming the enemy is a very frightening thing. I have to fight it every day. Some days I'm strong and then some days my doubts and insecurities start to engulf me.<P>I have searched here for posts that are inspiring. Look for a reply from Cossie to Amy posted Feb, 21, 2000. I copied it and look at it daily.<P>Some of the poems are helpful too. I really liked one called How do you live your Dash?<P>I have gotton down on my hands and knees and prayed for the strength to get through the day. My heart gets pierced each day when one of the kids says something (ges 10-8-5). This situation fell out of the sky for them as well and my H is still in the stage where he seems to feel totally unresponsible for what's happening here. He is kind of in "survival mode".<P>Sometimes every minute I have to tell myself that I cannot control him or make him change I can only try to change myself. And believe me I am changing!!!!!!!I am thinking of you today!!!!!!

Claudia,<P>Although I wouldn't go so far as to say my H was a wonderful H, he used to seem to be a caring H and father. I initially hoped, even after he moved out, that he would continue to be a caring father and a decent human being. That was not to be. He cares about no one but himself. I doubt if he really loves the OW - I suspect he just doesn't want to lose her because a) he doesn't like being alone and b) his standard of living would drop since we have six children for whom he is paying child support.<P>I am beginning to think that the conflict avoidance is at least partially a front. Avoiding conflict gives him a sense of control. The last time he gave me a reduced child support check, he hid the check here when he came to pick up the children, and then emailed me to tell me where it was and his spurious reasons for reducing it. <P>All he really cares about is money and control - and I think control is really the major issue. I suspect the longer he lives with the OW, the more control she tries to exert over him. And the more she controls him, the more he tries to control both me and the kids. <P>I was reading a web site which discussed dysfunctional ways to handle anger - and he displays at least three of them: conflict avoidance, burying the anger, and withholding - which includes withholding respect and decent treatment as well as money, etc.

Nellie1,<BR>I'm with you on 6 & 7. <P>You are fortunate to have your children. I know it is hard for you. Please, I hope your children don't feel like a burden with all of this. Your H is a great big schmuck for what he is doing.<BR>

Nellie, I know that things have been very difficult for you since your H has begun his affair. But I think you are allowing yourself to sink deeper and deeper into bitterness. You are the only one who can control that.<P>Your points in this most recent message sound so much like the things that betrayers say to their spouses: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He was probably always selfish, narcissistic, and incapable of feeling guilt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How much different is this than a betrayer saying "I never loved you"?<P>Plan A is extremely difficult and there are NO guarantees. But you have to live and believe in the rightness of Plan A for it to work. If you don't believe in the rightness of Plan A, the only guarantee is that it will not be effective at all.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Loving another adult. It is not worth it. Even if the last 25 years had been full of nothing but ectasy, it would not have been worth it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, so you made some mistakes in judgment - but does that really negate the happiness you have previously spoken of having had with your family prior to your H's affair? <P>Nellie, I cannot claim to understand what it must be like for you - you have all of your children to consider, and your husband has shown a great deal of anger and meanness that I haven't experienced in my situation. But what I fear is happening to you is that you are sinking into bitterness and despair and that it will eat you up until you are nothing inside. You have the choice as to whether or not you will allow this to happen, and I hope you will find a way to take a different emotional path for yourself.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

TheStudent,<P>No, I certainly don't think of my children as a burden! They are the only thing that keeps me going.<P>Terri,<P>Although my H has never actually said he never loved me - he said once after he left that he probably had loved me at one time - he did say he made a mistake marrying me and many of the other typical betrayer statements. But he was the one who said that people's basic personalities don't change. Looking back over the years, there were times that I wondered if he was capable of guilt, and tried to convince myself that he really was. <P>I know that you have done Plan A for a very long time, and I think that there is a benefit to Plan A when the betrayer is not consumed by rage. My H has turned into someone devoid of compassion - and I think it is impossible to really understand what it is like to deal with someone like that unless you have, particularly when that person seemed to have previously been capable of compassion. Even after he left, for at least several months, even when he was saying horrible things about me, he occasionally showed some degree of thoughtfulness. But in the last six months or so, that has completely disappeared. He goes out of his way to do unnecessarily hurtful things.

Nellie,<BR>1)You did not make a mistake marrying this man, despite how much he has hurt his children and yourself by HIS behaviour. This negates the good times, not only having children. You know a lot of my story...and I am still angry at H's stupidity and lack of responsibility parenting and providing financially, but I do not regret marrying him, I do not only think that my 4 children are the only good that came from this relationship...and in fact, while no marriage is perfect, I do not regret loving this man until I found I could no longer love this side of him. <BR>While many of the charateristics were always there, the good ones are hidden while the selfish, egocentric parts of him are what defines him now, especially with the trash he is with who does nothing to counter balance these parts.<P>2)My H also felt consumed by the fact that his family needed so much of his paycheck....hah duh!!! and he now wants it all to persue his hedonistic excesses which I, my lawyer and the courts here are making him accountable for. He is not really as rich as he thought he would be etc. This is all part of the MLC, IMHO<P>3) One of the things you mention is his being a conflict avoider. I believe that the conflict is now within himself in terms of this whole mess...and this he cannot deal with, in the same way my H cannot and will not communicate with me....it is too difficult to confront what he did, and the fact that i would not accept him having a bimbo abd being married to me...he wanted it all and feels this is his due! <P>4)Plan A or a variation is needed for YOU...for you to know that you tried your best and it was not you who was lacking in humanity, care and love, but your H. If you had not planned A as you did for so long, you would always have the "what if" question.<P><BR>I am sending you an e-mail as I have a ? for you re my d.<BR>Take care

Hey, I hope you are feeling better today. I know its very painful to lose love and be part of someone who offers so much conflict to your life and happiness. He is not mature it sounds to offer you what you need and I'm sorry. I have been on both sides and its terrible. I can't change them,only me. People do change and grow and choose. I chose God for my strenght and not to sound churchy,but I can't explain it but I do have a peace not found before and I think that time and God has given me stength. Be good to yourself,your children and really even him as hard as it is. I believe good will always win out. Fighting/conflict will not resolve even if he will not come around. If you have to move on, you will find happiness and love again, you will. Please pray and give it over and over and time will heal and you will get through this. Have fun w the kids,w a friend,w yourself. Treat you well and be good and know that there are good people here to help and will offer love understanding and help. May God bless you and bring you peace.

willbok,<BR>For me, the only good thing (and of course it is a major good thing) that has come out of my marriage is my children. I kick myself daily for ever having married him, for ever having gone out on a second date with him. In retrospect, I can see all kinds of signs of his selfishness from the very beginning of our relationship. <P>I am beginning to think that most of his decisions are based on the financial advantages to him - perhaps he wanted to live with me to begin primarily because two can live cheaper than one. He told the therapist that we got along better after attending a couples workshop - where the only issue resolved was that I would contribute more toward expenses because I was earning more at the time (over 20 years ago). Was it just chance that the last time he left me, admittedly only for a matter of hours, it was shortly after he had obtained another job and could afford to live without my financial support? It is just chance that he stayed with me all these years when I was contributing income to the family, only to leave a few years after I became a SAHM, after he had found someone who had much more money than we did, and was apparently willing to spend it on him? <P>I will go check for your email as soon as possible. <P>3wishes,<BR>Thank you for your support. Unfortunately, the main problem is that things are getting worse. He agrees to something, and then turns around and changes his mind, and then denies that we ever discussed it, even when I have email evidence. I don't, unfortunately, believe that good will always win out.

Nellie1,<P>I too sometimes wonder why my ex married me. I don't think it was financial reasons. He always bragged (?) about how he always liked smart women. But, ya know, smart women like to do something with their brains. We are not around just to make sparkling conversation at parties and family gatherings! Everything was fine as long as we lived where he wanted to live, he had exactly the job he wanted,etc. All hell broke loose, it seemed like, when I wanted to go back to school. <P>I really resent the notion that all betrayers say they made a mistake getting married. Even though I say that now, it is only after my ex treated me less than dirt for over a year then hauled *ss. Yes, NOW, I sure do wish I never married him. <P>You said about your H:<BR>He agrees to something, and then turns around and changes his mind, and then denies that we ever discussed it, even when I have email evidence. I don't, unfortunately, believe that good will always win out. <P>My ex did this constantly our last year. It really messed with my head. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 05, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>My H was ok, too, as long as his job was going well and we had enough money. But as soon as there was much external stress, he took it out on me. <P>I don't understand how spouses can stand there and claim that something never happened when there is irrefutable proof that it did. Perhaps they think that they will somehow be able to convince us that we are crazy.

I am sad to see two of the most intelligent posters on this board into so much bitterness.<P>Look, I was married at 25 and three years later my H was out dipping his wick. We tried therapy and then divorced. I picked myself up out of hell and married again 6 years later. Again, my H#2 is out doing the nasty. Again, I am divorced.<P>It is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hard to live through this crap twice.<P>You learn a great deal about life, men, yourself and the world when you get divorced due to infidelity. For example, when H#2 did his thing I had NO trouble walking away after the initial shock. Love can die in an instant.<P>I remarried again 12/28/99. I keep going and going and going because like you ladies I want and deserve a faithful spouse in my life. If infidelity should enter this marriage it will end as well.<P>I can beat myself up for having made two mistakes but I don't because I want a good life NOW. I know that I am forever changed and there is no wide-eyed 25 year old blindly going into marriage. So, instead of listing my old mistakes, my list is for NOW and the FUTURE. <P>MISTAKES I WON'T MAKE<P>If infidelity is discovered marriage ends immediately.<P>I will not be financially dependent on a man. <BR>I will not be a SAHM. <P>I will not enter into mortgages or loans that I cannot pay on my own salary. <P>If I should have children with H he loses all rights to them upon infidelity. They will be given his name and address when they are 18. <P>I will NEVER be the infidel.<BR> <P>Of course my new H says he'll never be unfaithful. He wants a big mortgage and thinks children should have full-time mommies. BUT, he knew my rules before we married and he's willing to live with them.<BR>I can't stop him from being an infidel but I can protect myself. <P>I guess what I'd rather see you two do is make some lists for your futures. Maybe my list is cruel and self-serving but instead of giving up on a life companion altogether, I have my "rules".<P>Student, I am aware that you were the infidel in your marriage and this is not written to offend you. I'm sure you will never do it again. (One of my rules )<P>Please oh please, TRY to remove yourselves from what these men have done to you. It may not sound like it and I do have bad memories some days, but I am very, very happy.<P>I don't like to talk about it much here but imagine yourselves in that happy place as you discover someone new and love him more each day ........ no crappy history to deal with, just the future as YOU make it together. <BR>Best of all you are a stronger more loving person from all you have lived through and all the things you have learned right here on keeping a marriage together. <P>I hope this is not offensive and I in no way intend to negate your feelings. These are just my suggestions for getting on with it.

Inshock,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I should have children with H he loses all rights to them upon infidelity. They will be given his name and address when they are 18.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is easier said than done. I suspect an agreement like that wouldn't stand up in court. In any case, I could not tell my child that she couldn't see her father again until he was 18 - that would be punishing the child for the sins of the father.<P>Unfortunately babies do need their mothers, and young children are better off with one of their parents home with them. It is a sad commentary on society that it is not safe to have the kind of family life that is best for the children. <P>What I can not understand is how someone can hide the fact that they are capable of something as cruel as leaving their family for an OP for 24 years! A few years - maybe, but 24?? <P>Unfortunately, I do not think I am a stronger, more loving person. I am a more cynical person, certainly. I have learned a valuable lesson from this - you can't trust anybody - but learning that lesson hasn't made me happier. <P>If I were ever to find someone else, I would live in constant fear that they were going to leave. It is impossible to tell how someone feels about you. It is impossible to tell if they are unhappy. You can't tell by their words - they will lie through their teeth. You can't tell by their actions - they will act like they love you right up until they fall in love with someone else. But I have learned that if they ever are not completely open, if they ever do anything selfish, if they ever get angry, if they ever are disrespectful - you should leave immediately before they have a chance to. Unfortunately, that basically eliminates everyone from consideration. <P>Children need a stable two parent family for their entire childhoods. Obviously tragedies can occur and a parent can die, but, baring that, they should have a guarantee that both of their parents will be there for their entire childhoods. If that can not be guaranteed, the next best thing is for them not to have a father to begin with. I firmly believe that growing up with one loving parent is far better than risking having a parent whom they love leave them during childhood. <P>I have also read many places that children are generally better off in single parent homes than they are with stepparents. The only exception is when they are so young that they have little memory of the stepparent not being there. The worse time to bring a stepparent into the home is when they are teenagers. I will have a teenager for pretty much the rest of my life - until I am in my sixties. I doubt very much that I would want to bring a stepparent into their lives.