The "choice", when it comes to evaluating an affair vs. a marriage, is either loss, or loss. That's simply not a thrilling alternative. I avoided to make any choice for such a long time ... for too long.<BR> <BR>My marriage is of the well-working, down-to-earth type. It has surely always satisfied my most basic needs, including the needs for warmth, tender mutual care, and sexuality. The affair has done damage to our marital intimacy, because my mind and heart were divided, and a lot of the warmth which should have been lived *inside* the marriage was transferred onto OM. <BR> <BR>Isn't it just *normal* that "big feelings" of passion aren't prominent in a marriage when people have been living together for 20 years (!), and have reared three children together? Our energies went into work, into financial and emotional survival during those stressing years which are behind us now ... Also, there was my frustration over not making a great carreer, due to my three children ... But that wasn't my husband's fault, and I don't blame him for it, either. I had wanted the children. I am also working now, and I'm doing quite well. When I look back on the years when the children were small, I don't regret having had them (it would be too late to have them now, so I did things the right way round!). <BR> <BR>So, ... was there really something "wrong" with my marriage?! Is the fact that I had an affair evidence enough that there was something wrong? ... Well, perhaps a little bit. There may have been too much emotional routine .... Perhaps I was not fully aware of my own emotional needs, after having cared for other people for so long. Possible. But I did not expect to be "passionately in love" with my husband after 20 years. I think it's normal that love turns into something quieter with the years.<BR> <BR>There's a special aspect to my husband's reaction to my relationship with OM which, when reading Dr. Harley's comments, appears more unusual to me than my own behavior:<BR>I NEVER lied to my husband when my affair started, although at some stage, much later (talking about at least two years here), I did not keep him up to date any more with regard to its emotional intensity. I even remember telling my husband (and he remembers, too) that I had conscience bites, that I thought I was too deeply involved with this man ... Well, I avoided the expression "I'm in love with ...". However, my husband actually *saw* me spending hours and hours writing emails to OM, receiving phone calls from him, and he never once said a sharp word to me about all these things, nor did he express a wish that they should end. <BR> <BR>One day, OM was beginning to wonder about my husband's "indifference" (OM was, I think, checking out whether he could go any farther now). Although OM had always referred to his own bad marriage and had looked for consolation when talking to me, I had never reciprocated on the same level, i.e., by writing negative things about my own marriage. This troubled OM, and he kept asking whether things were really ok between my husband and I? But, to my mind, there was never anything negative which I could have written about my marriage. My husband is a great guy. Whatever faults he may have, they are small human flaws of the type we all have. This is what I told OM. <BR> <BR>When OM got suspicious about my husband's alleged indifference, I told him that it wasn't that, for sure. But that same night, I asked my husband, "Does it REALLY not bother you at all, this relationship which I have with .... ?!" He answered, "I simply trust that you will know how far you can go, and that you will never leave me. Although I know that there is always an erotic element involved when two people of opposite sex have intense conversations, I do not feel that I am facing acute danger to my marriage. And I'm not the jealous type. You know that I believe that individuals need space for themselves, too. Although, when I come to think of it, I'd really like you to spend some more time with me on occasions ..." <BR> <BR>On the one hand, it pleased me what my husband had said (in Dr. Harley's words, he was depositing love units, by expressing his trust). I am very individual in many ways, and really do need a fair amount of personal space. On the other hand, I felt helpless and troubled. Was my husband *really* not indifferent?! After all, at that particular time, my soul, body, my whole existence were yearning for OM. *I* certainly realized that this affair was endangering my marriage ... But so it happened that the affair continued, under my husband's eyes. However, feeling guiltier than earlier, I started spending some more time with my husband again.<BR> <BR>Much later, my husband explained his reasons to me: He said that he had been afraid of my boiling temperament if he had confronted me (I do have such a temperament). That I might have decided to go for a spontaneous, nutty action in such a situation, an action which I would otherwise not even consider, such as packing my stuff and leaving for America on the spot. That, had I left him, my relationship with OM would have ended very quickly, and that I might then find myself in extreme danger, but far away from home. That I might choose suicide in this situation (correct). He also said that he had enough information on OM to trust that OM would be unable to hold and bind me on the long run, due to his own instability, lack of patience, and greed. My husband said, "He would have been unable to swallow a huge bite like you, it would have simply choked him if he had tried". He said, "You are too vast for him on every level of existence: Emotional, intellectual, and ethical. You would have never fitted into OM's picture frame. He would have been afraid of you first, and then he would have hated you." (See the compliment? Hubby was depositing love units, of course. Yet I know he would never flatter me emptily, but means what he said.)<BR> <BR>I later spoke to my husband about each and every detail of the affair which I remembered. I needed openness, I wanted to save the love I still had. And he forgave me. He forgave me, and cared for me, and even tried to soothe the incredible pain which OM's behavior had caused in my soul. My husband became more concerned than he had been for a long time; I guess that this affair gave him a fright after all. Maybe he realized only then how close we had come to desaster?<BR> <BR>My affair was emotional, ... platonic. I guess that leaving it on that level was one way of "convincing" myself, for a long period of time, that it wasn't really an "affair", but just a deep "friendship".<BR> <BR>I did not *look for* an affair. That was OM's doing. It was the classical trap: OM was contemplating divorce at the time I met him, but was afraid of leaving his children behind. He was looking for someone to relate to. He liked me, at least he appeared to like my thinking and my character, and so he wooed me. In the beginning, I didn't even notice that he was wooing me. We had been engaging in an intellectual (email) discussion for well over a year before we actually met for the first time (my husband and I are Europeans, OM is from America). Initially, my husband had also contributed to that email discussion. I thought that I had just found a new friend (naive, eh?). I sure see things differently now, after reading Dr. Harley's comments on how affairs actually begin. <BR> <BR>It took me a long time before I realized that I was madly in love with this guy. When I realized it, I experienced a load of chaotic feelings previously unknown in my life ... I did not want to make a decision. It would invariably involve terrible pain, so I shyed away from it. No way did I want to end my marriage ... No way did I want to end my affair ... There seemed to be no way. My affair lasted for about 3 years. It was a rollercoaster affair, involving a huge amount of pain. OM, a passive-aggressive type, often withdrew into distant, angry silence, while covering me in tenderness and compliments at other times. He tends to behave towards other people in the same fashion. I have never been able to explain what attracted me to him so strongly, as he kept punishing me with this form of indifference and indirect, non-verbal enmity.<BR> <BR>OM made the final decision on his own, just like he also took all other relevant decisions during the time we related. After the first year, he stopped trying to become a genuinely religious person, which disappointed me (this had been the content of our email discussion). The second year gone by, he boycotted all my attempts at turning our relationship into something else (such as a work partnership). After his divorce, he did not just leave his wife, but he also decided to drop me, the pawn of his midlife crisis. He quit in a rather offputting (cowardly? lazy?) fashion, not answering my letters any more, avoiding all relevant topics. He just ditched me, just turned cold, just changed his behavior. The pain of this was unbelievable ... I nearly went nuts over it. <BR> <BR>I had to have surgery at the time, and of course I had hoped for a few words of support from the "friend of my heart". Instead, I learned that he had already had one girl-friend (of whose existence I had known nothing), that he was preparing to ditch her, too, and that he had already started another relationship with yet another woman. The last piece of news I heard was that these two had gotten engaged, after having known one another for just a few weeks. The couple will soon move out of state, which will mean that from now on, OM will rarely see his teenage children and his other relatives. He has left everyone behind, not just me. I guess he's not prepared to compromise about his need for a significant other in any way, but will destroy or ignore anyone who dares interfere with his personal needs and ideas in some way. Crazy. <P>OM has been out of the picture for a few months now, and I hope that it will stay that way. Amazingly, though, I still miss him. I certainly doubt that I will ever be indifferent to his fate.<P>Unlike my marriage, my affair was the *luxury* version of love. It did not include the daily struggles over filthy towels, bills, etc.; rather, it was refined and luxurious through and through. Philosophy, poetry, reading one another's deepst thoughts! Miracles and wonders! One of its most notable traits was the fact that it was too good to be part of reality; it was like a dream, played on the stage of reality.<BR> <BR>To draw up a "material" comparison: My pain of loss, after the affair, may well be comparable to that of a simple employee in an office who suddenly wins a few million dollars in the lottery. One day, the money just comes showering down on her, and it seems to be coming from Heaven. Totally unprepared and overwhelmed, she starts into a "new" life. Although she knows that she should really invest the money, luxury quickly becomes *addictive*. It just seems horrendous to go to the same office in the same old car every morning, while being covered in such *riches* ... Gradually, she gets used to a jet set level of living, and a new kind of self-perception follows. <P>One day, this silly lady finds herself pennyless. Of course, *now*, it seems hard that she *must* go to work every morning, that she *must* earn her paycheck again, and that she *must* subsist on her salary. <P>Why? Isn't this the very same thing which she did throughout her earlier life?! And isn't it still a very good life which she's leading ... way better than that of 90% of people who are born on this planet?! She's safe. She need not starve. Her life contains lots of simple chances to be happy. Her problem is, she's just ravenous for *more* for *something better*, and has lost the ability to appreciate these simple chances. <BR> <BR> I conclude a few things: <BR> <BR>(1) Not *everything* which I have allowed myself, and which I have desired (or which I still desire) is necessarily indicative of a genuine *need*. It may also be indicative of greed, of habit, of a learned consumerist attitude towards life and people.<BR> <BR>(2) There's no such thing as a natural right to luxury, even though luxury certainly is fun. There were aspects about my affair which definitely were luxurious. Extramarital affairs are luxury on the relationship level. They are an expression of a desire for emotional wealth, while a stable marriage represents an institution which safeguards the prerequisites of life between a man and a woman. <BR> <BR>(3) A lot of those things which are fun have the potential to cause *dependency*. A certain amount of control by the mind, and a search for alternatives, may be the right attitude towards that aspect. There happen to be a few things, such as recognition and positive feedback, which one should also provide for oneself (and not just expect to get them from one's spouse). I like my job, and I have also started a continuing training course in order to overcome my childish addiction to OM's approval. <P> Comments?<BR> <BR> <P>------------------<BR>Byte: What the mosquitoes do.<BR>Bit: What the mosquitoes did.<P>[This message has been edited by die Deutsche (edited December 02, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by die Deutsche (edited December 02, 1999).]

Wow. Color me impressed. You have so much depth and understanding at what you did and why ....<P>I'm still trying to sort it all out. OM was my best friend .... but we had a physical relationship too.<P>I miss him. I, too, will always wonder how his life is going.<P>Thanks so much for sharing.

Hi,<BR>That certainly was an interesting post.<BR>My H's situation is simular in some aspects, only not over the net, but in car pooling to work. Lots of conversations, her being unhappy in her marriage, crying on his shoulder. Even though he did not complain about me, I guess I was ignored. White Knight to the rescue. No other responsibilities, no children, no garbage to take out......a different life.<P> I too TRUSTED my H. We had been married for 26 years at the time. This OW was a neighbor of ours. Apparently, as this grew more into a relationship, over a period of three years, my husband grew wiery of the deceit, the agony, the lies, the infidelity he was inflicting on our marriage. Although he was able to treat me as though nothing was going on, never made me feel unwanted or unneeded, he himself wanted it to end.<P> The shock of what had happened nearly killed me, I nearly killed him. He finally, after two months of back and forth, walked away from it, and has never had any contact again. I know he also went through withdraw, I know he also held her close to his heart, until I explained what she also had done to me and our family. I started him seeing that his little miss goodie two shoes, wasn't "Miss Perfect". He doesn't think of her fondly now. <P>My Question to you is....... The statements you made......"big feelings" of passion aren't prominent in a marriage when people have been in a marriage for 20 years, and have reared children. Also you talk about stress and frustration.........Well, That is all part of a marriage, everyone goes through it except for those having an affair, in their fantasy world. Those are the things that create deep relations, deep feelings, deep love. I think those are the things that have held my H and I together for 30 years now. The same thing that got us back as a whole this time. Thinking back, remembering, Looking at our children, then and now, talking about our future,,,,,, all create even MORE "big feelings" and bring out a passion for each other unlike we never thought we would have.<P>I think you need to give it a chance, you seem to not be open to the passion you could have with your H. My H is a quiet man also, but is more passionate now then ever with me. We seem to be in compitition with each other to see who will get the first hug or kiss in, of who can love the most. This takes alot of work and Time to get it back together after such a devastating thing has happened.<P>I hope you will find these fellings for your H soon, he still has them, but it will take a while to re-surface. Put all your energy into him, do everything you can to regain the trust. Nothing is too small or insignificant to prove you want to recover. The more you do the more you will.<P>Almost Happy<P>-------<BR>TIME <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Almost Happy (edited December 02, 1999).]

Welkommen <B>die Deutsche</B> to the Marriage Builders - Infidelity Forum.<P>WOW...<P>My normal "welcome (welkommen) wagon" doesn't apply here!<P>You've said a mouthful...<BR>My view of your closing comments...<P>1. The "consumerist attitude towards life"... you speak of is unquestionably a rationale for the importance of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> to fill our <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>s! However, I don't believe that <B>all</B> actions/needs we profess fall into <I>this</I> category of the <I>way things just are</I>. Many here have found that <B>faith</B>... in whatever form they take it to mean, is needed in their lives to combat "materialism"... And, in the end... has a power that will out strip any "consumerist attitude"! The concept of the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A> is not all "materialistic"... the emotional needs are the needs clearly expressed as "good" and "necessary" in virtually all value systems/faiths.<P>2. I agree 100% with "There's no such thing as a natural right to luxury". The luxury you speak of here leads to nothing less than complete sexual <B>and</B> non-sexual narcissism. Guilt, and a healthy dose of it, makes us all better. Lack of recognition of "absolutes", alows us to make ourselves into god(s)... and failing the individual in the end.<P>3. Self-dependency is an end goal clearly expressed by Dr. Harley. The main intent of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... is to achieve this lofty goal... while not relinquishing, in early stages, "hope"...<BR>Faith... Hope... and Charity(Love)... are things we will not let go of so easily... and with good reason!<P>Your story and insights are welcome here any time. Thank you for your ideas... <P>Post often... I'm looking forward to seeing/reading them. <P>Jim (Imre)<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...