First, thanks everyone for replying to my last thread. Regrets that I don't have time to reply to everyone. Also I've got too much to think about to really concentrate on replies. But thanks to Hum, RMA, FHL, Jenn Jones and everyone else (Jenn -- glad to hear your husband didn't send the OW b-day card!).<P>My wife and I had a really long talk last night. Many love-busters involved on both sides. It continued this morning for a bit. What it boils down to is we're both very weary. She's constantly worried if she can trust me and constantly has to push back thoughts that I'm just a f*cking [censored], and I'm constantly worried that I'll hurt her again in the future.<P>I'm confident that I won't go back to the OW. I'm confident that I'll be able to honest. But I'm not confident that I'll be able to love her. Yes, we will try counseling with Steve Harley in the near future (probably will have to be after the holidays). <P>After our talks, my wife isn't sure if she wants to stay married. She just doesn't want to carry the burden anymore. I don't blame her. I've put her through too much already. She said last night that she wanted a divorce. I'm not sure if she still thinks that now. Part of me wants a divorce too, but most of me still wants this to work, I guess, cuz I spent alot of energy trying to convince her otherwise.<P>I'm going to be away next week on a business trip. During that time, I guess, we'll think about what we really want.<P>--andy

Andy,<P>Oh, geez....what to say.....my heart's in the pit of my stomach right now. Remember the roller coaster ride, all the ups and downs along the way, the emotional swings, etc........<P>I would be so interested in talking to your wife right now just to see what's in her heart and mind. This all seems to be a sudden change, or not? Has she been keeping these feelings in or just hadn't processed them yet? Is it anger that is just now surfaced that she kept in before? This is something I worry about some so have started to let more out to my H. <P>It will be very interesting to experience Harley's approach when you start counseling with him. I'll be curious to hear about it, especially what he says about your struggle getting feelings back for your wife.<P>My H and I have been listening to some tapes on if man really needs God? Very interesting. The discussion about "the truth is not the problem, it's the hypocracy of the search" and "intent is prior to content", really had an impact on my H and his internal need to be honest. Now I'm trusting him very much. Not 100%, but I estimate 90%. <P>I'm pulling for you and your wife of course. You've been an inspiration on this forum, and I'm really hoping and praying for another success story!!<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Andy,<P>I am so sorry to hear this. I really thought the two of you were making some headway.<P>First, take some time off from this. Sometimes, if we work to hard at something, it becomes way too intense and we forget what we are working towards.<P>I feel for both of you- especially your wife (sorry, but I do). She has a lot of issues that she needs to work through. You need to give her some time and some space to work these issues out.<P>You both need to give yourselves a break. You need to step back and try to see the 'forest through the trees'. <P>I am sorry for this. I really am. I think you both have a lot of healing to do, and this does take time.<P>I know you don't believe in God, but I am praying for you and your family. <P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl

Hi Airheart -<P>I have been following along.....<P>I too, think that you might need to just let things flow for a while....not think so much!!!<P>I, however, was thinking that if your wife would like someone to talk with - who's been through this a looooonnnng time also....please feel free to give her my email Sheba101@webtv.net....<P>You know my story I think and I promise that I won't mess her up too bad!!! LOl!<P>This is about the only thing I have to offer..... except:<P>BIG HUGS, STRENGTH AND PRAYERS,<P>Sheba<BR>

andy and andy's W,<P>What a bummer of a deal going on here. Let me put in a few cents worth - wearing my "Lucy" hat - costs you a nickel <P>First, I will tell you that I was married once and got divorced. It was DEATH and worse than DEATH!!!! OK, you and your W have all these negative feelings about each other - trust issues or rather, mistrust issues, on BOTH sides. OK< so maybe you decide to get a D.<P>Now, this is what to expect: FAILURE feelings like you have NEVER experienced, yet. The reality of the divorce hits you, your W, your S, both families, close friends - everybody that will be impacted because now it will be different. Interactions, loyalties, friendships, family and social gatherings....<P>Your S will suffer, too. You and your W will most likely suffer financially. Depression will rock you BOTH as the PERMANENCE of this sets in. It will take ANOTHER 2 years for you both to go through the grieving process of the D. <P>You guys might be lucky and find another relationship in the future. But, you will be afraid to trust in that new relationship, too. Your W will be thingking, maybe this guy will cheat on me - maybe I can't trust him. iI was cheated on once and I will nEVER forget it - so she won't fully trust this new guy.<P>And, andy, I think it will be natural for you to maybe go into another relationship and hold back some - try to keep yourself from getting too emotionally attached to "save yourself some pain" if things don't quite go as planned.<P>Add to all this, the fact that the two of you will have to get over the positive feelings you do have for each other - companionship, friendship, shared parenting,etc. and the negative ones too - guilt, anger, disappointment, etc.<P>The point is this: Love is NOT a panacea for what ails you. Look at all the people in love and there is still some type of trouble in the relationship. We all think LOVE is the answer to life's problems, but a lot of our S's are newly "in-love" and they continue to have problems out the wazzoo!<P>andy and andy's W, think about this too. There is no GUARANTEE that you will be happier after D. I have people I know who couldn't wait to get D'ed and are now MISERABLE! You might end up alone. Or, you might find someone else later and it doesn't work out either. Heed those statistics about the pitifully low survival rates of second marriages - I am about to prove those statistics are VERY TRUE! And, even if you find love and get married a second time and the marriage lasts - maybe after awhile, you find you were never REALLY in-love with this person, either? <P>Who knows what the future holds. I am NOT judging you, but want to let you know what you are in for. It SEEMS easier to get D and move on. Actually, it is HARDER than trying to repair and build up what you already have. BUT, you need BOTH of you to do it! Andy can't do it by himself. Andy's wife can't do it by herself. BOTH of you gotta work on it. <P>What is love, anyway...it is alot more than sparks flying on the fourth of July. It's demonstrated nurturance and caring, friendship, companionship, loyalty, sex, dependability, honesty, doing fun things together, doing Yucky and painful things together, sharing grief and gladness - really - it is about having someone to share life's ups and downs with - a special person to enjoy the day-to-day with. Can it be that there really is NO love there, andy????????<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Oh, Airheart.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{Andy}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Give yourselves a break for a while.<P>Lori

Gee, thanks everyone for the posts. I really don't have the energy to think up much of a response except to say thanks for thinking about me. I super tired.<P>--andy

Hi Andy,<BR> I know you are feeling bad and I think my H thinks alot like you do....Anyway, this is from"Grow Up" by Frank Pittman titled "Secrets of Marriage"<P> 11. Marriage is not supposed to make you HAPPY; it is supposed to make you MARRIED. <BR> 12. Do more than your share of the working and loving. What you get from your marriage is in proportion to your investment in it.<BR> <BR>I hope you don't think I'm preaching....I have been feeling like giving up on my marriage since my H doesn't seem to have feelings for me etc, but this really hit me and made me realize that it's up to me to be happy and I can't depend on the marriage for that. Hang in there, Airheart........Lu

"Marriage isn't supposed to make you happy, it's suppose to make you married" ??????<P>That's awful. Talk about your ball and chain theology.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited December 03, 1999).]

Hi Maya,<P> What I take it to mean is Happiness comes from WITHIN not from another person "making you happy" ....and YES I firmly believe this......Lu<BR> <BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Lu (edited December 03, 1999).]

Hi Andy<P>No advice, you know where it got you last time I posted to you ... in the hothouse!! Haven't posted for ages, but I'm still around, although this forum is not really the right place for me anymore I don't think ... can't help being drawn here though. <P>Take care<BR>S

Thanks all for your replies.<P>We're sorta taking it slow right now, but I can tell there is alot of relief in my wife's voice when she talks about divorce. There's a certain amount of relief when I think about it too. No doubt. This is all so very tiring. We're both so tired. And maybe we can at least come out of this as friends if we get it over with now instead of making each other miserable for a longer period of time... I don't know.<P>Like I said before, I have a business trip that will be taking me out of town for all of next week. So we'll see what happens when I get back.<P><B>Jenn</B>-- I'll be sure to give an update on how things went with the Harley counselling once we get that ball rolling. With all the hustle-bustle of the holidays and work being very busy right now, it's hard to say when we can set up a meeting.<P><B>Cheryl</B>-- Happy Anniversary again! You know, I feel bad for my wife too. I've screwed her life up pretty badly. Thanks for your thoughts.<P><B>Sheba</B>-- Don't know if my wife's read this entire thread, but I'll mention your email address to her. She's not much into talking to other people, though. Kind of a reserved person.<P><B>Desiree</B>-- Just saw your name recently on another thread... hope you don't mind me using that instead of RMA. You make alot of good points about divorce. I've not given it much thought really. But you are right about alot of stuff. Question is, will we be more miserable married than divorced? We've got to weigh everything pro and con. I'm hip to your description of love and married life. My wife and I have shared all those things. But I sorta just existed through it all. I didn't feel like I was happy to be a part of it, but rather I was just <I>there</I>. I don't know how else to explain it. It's not that there wasn't ANY love. Yeah, I love my wife. It's more like the way I love my best friends or love my siblings or whatever. There's got to be more. I'm sounding like a broken record to myself cuz I've said that so much on this forum!<P><B>lori</B>-- thanks for the cyber-hug! I'm not much of a huggy guy, but I can use 'em every once in a while!<P><B>Lu</B>-- Thanks for your quotes about happiness being within yourself. I realize there are probably some people who have much worse situations than myself, and yet they're happy with life. I guess I'm not really that kinda person. My happiness depends on alot of outside factors. I hafta say that right now I'm not very happy. Haven't been for a long time...<P><B>Maya</B>-- I realize you weren't responding to my thread, but here's a big shout out to ya! SHOUT! <P><B>sosad</B>-- Hi! Long time no talk-to! Thanks for replying. I've been wondering if you were still around, and how you've been lately.<P>take care all,<BR>--andy<P>

andy,<P>Well I was glad to see that I am not scratched off your Christmas list...WHEW!!<P>Yes, you and your wife deserve more - we all do. I was not trying to be judgemental to you and glad you didn't take it that way. Just giving you something to think about.<P>When H#1 and I divorced, I can not tell you how excrutiating - makes this stuff look like marshmallow cream(but with jalapenos!). Seriously, it is awful and the impact is much more far-reaching than you and your W and your son.<P>I discovered that some things don't change when you change H's. Life is still life - deals you good and bad times. Passion dies down after awhile, even for those REALLY in-love. I guess to me the satisfaction of marriage is in the collective - all the experiences and feelings added up. <P>Keep the faith, andy. Somehow I know things will work out for you no matter what. You have a willing spirit and a strong desire and drive to "find" something. Your W needs a 2 x4 on the head to realize what a treasure she has. Keep searching, and you will find what you seek....it could be right inside you....<P>I don't mind you using my name at all!! Thanks - quite a compliment. <P>Loved your idea for the movie/soap opera and SHA rose right to the challenge! I have been laughing so much <P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I'm pretty new to the forum, but I think I'm in the same boat as your wife. But we've been in counseling for a month (he told the counselor before he told me). We've had to distract ourselves to avoid the mental looping that occurs. I can't say I've been that good at it. But things will trigger thoughts that make me angry or very depressed, and I've had to distract myself to avoid endlessly thinking in the past. The flip side we were taught was to focus on the future, even if there is a slight chance of having a great marriage, is it worth going after with all you've got. I feel like I'm the one who's been trying harder even though I'm the betrayed. Don't know if you're wife feels this way, especially if you're still thinking about the OW.<P>The other salient point was that Jenn Harley told him he needed to start making me feel loved and appreciated fast!! I wouldn't worry so much about whether you can feel in-love with her again. That's more a result if she is filling you're love bank, but my h wasn't even open to me meeting his needs at first. We are doing a lot better this week, even though we too have talked about splitting.

Andy,<P>Just curious....when did your wife feel she started to fall out of love with you? I was thinking she was doing OK and just you were the one trying to get the feelings back.<P>How is tonight going?<P>Jenn

<B>Desiree</B> -- my wife needs a 2x4 upside the head?? LOL! I need it way more than she does. Cuz she's the treasure. I'm really not sure why I don't love her like I should.<P><B>Schizzo</B> -- I basically think there's more to it than just fulfilling emotional needs and pumping up the love-bank. Otherwise, I'd be in love with my wife again, or at least feel some sort of spark. She's done alot to try to fill my account in the last few months. She's tried harder than me probably. I think that's typical actually while one spouse is in withdrawal.<P><B>Jenn</B> -- I don't think my wife is out of love with me. It's just that it's too hurtful for her to keep at it, and be reminded that I never felt passionate about her and that I don't love her. Also, there's the constant thoughts about what I did to her and the nagging feeling that she can't trust me. Well, it's just very hard to deal with as you know, and she wishes for peace of mind.<P>--andy<p>[This message has been edited by airheart (edited December 03, 1999).]

Airheart, maybe I was so hard on you the other day because I saw shades of my own H in you.<P>He's committed to the marriage and he loves me. However, I guess he had second thoughts about marrying me (although I think much of that is revisionist history) and I have the feeling if I died tomorrow, he could bury me and just walk away. Now, except for his kids, he's kind of like that with everybody. In his defense there is probibly a lot more to him that I give him credit for.<P>And I would like to kick him in the....shins for this. I'm a great wife (if I do say so myself) always have been and always will be. He does not know how good he has it. I was his first serious relationship and maybe he would have benefited from being kicked around by a few women. <P>Aside from the distantness of him, he's a great H. But I KNOW it.<P>I have been a Plan A person with everyone in my whole life. I'm so nice it would make you want to puke. I'm no doormat, but just about everyone in my life comes to me for some kind of support of guidance. Does my H? No. Well, he is getting a little better. <P>Anyway my point is I agree with you. It is more than just meeting needs and pumping up the love units. Something is missing and I sure wish you could find it. I know you do too. All the best.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi Andy,<P>I had such a long response typed out to you today and my computer crashed before I could send it (: I was so disgusted!!<P>I don't have much time now but I wanted to say that what Roll Me Away said really hit home with me. <P>I know your searching for those in-love feelings and I know your tired but don't give up, your marriage is worth fighting for. <P>Come on Andy, keep trying, I'm pulling for you.

FHL -- the only thing I had issue with in your previous reply on my other thread was the characterization of my affair and my thoughts now when thinking about the OW. Other than that, your remarks were good and I appreciate them. Hope your husband comes around sooner than later!<P>Hum -- Hey, I read your "thinking" letter to the OM. I never thought I'd read something like that from you, when I remember back to how you were when you first came on this forum! It's amazing, your turn around, and I congratulate you!<P>--andy

Andy,<P>This is my own subjective opinion, but I can't help but think that if your wife is still in love with you, she would have a very difficult time finding more peace and happiness after a divorce.<P>Can you consider just taking a break from working on the marriage for a while and enjoy each other's company through the holidays? Then after you get hooked up with Harley you could resume addressing these issues. You both might even be more relaxed through the holidays as a result. Sure beats separating your property and determining child custody over some eggnog, don't you think?!!<P>I'm doing this sort of thing with my husband right now and feel more internal peace and contentment than I have so far. It comes and goes, and is still very up and down, but overall it has made it a bit easier for me on a day to day basis.<P>Keep in touch, Andy. As you can tell there are many people on this forum pulling for both of you. Please tell your wife that I send her a hug. I truly empathize with alot of the pain and confusion she is experiencing. And I'm sure you are too, Andy.<P>Jenn