Guess again!<BR>When my H started his affair, my oldest was 18 years old. He was in his first year at college. This was a brilliant boy with his whole life ahead of him. An honor student in high school, he should have succeeded at anything he chose.<P>His father's bad brain period began about the same time that my son started college. The upheaval in this house was too much. There was no way that he could concentrate on his studies while watching his mothergo through months of torment. He was far too peerceptive and worried constantly about me no matter how hard I tried to be strong.<P>As a result his marks were not high enough to go on to his second year. He was informed that he could reapply in a year. <P>A year later he has done just that. He was not accepted. This young man should now be finishing his second year of college. Instead he spent the last year at a full time job waiting to reapply and go on with the life he planned. His life was turned upside down because of his father's infidelity. What now?<P>I know that there are much worse things that could have happened. But this should NOT have happened to him. It was not his job to take care of his mother while his father played around with a dirty little wh**re.<P>I'm angry!!!! Kids may be resilient but life is not!<P>I feel guilty! I should have been stronger. I should never have let him see my pain. <P>That little bimbo gets off scott free. My H is happier than he has ever been and my son is still suffering from the far reaching effects of this crap!<P>Infidelity destroys futures. My son's only mistake was loving and caring for his mother too much.

My kids don't know about my W's affair (I don't think), but they can't miss the radical change in her behavior and the utter chaos brought on my our separation and apparently inevitable divorce. The devastation is widespread and long-lasting.<P>Your love for your son is his best chance at health and a brigher future. I cling to that with my kids.

Thank you 'waz'...I needed to see this. Thank you so very much.<P>I am so sorry....

Wassi!<BR>Girl, I know exactly what you mean! The day my 18 year old daughter came home and told me that she saw the OW's car at my H's office I knew that this was confirmation that he was having this affair. It was torture but I waited until she returned to college (she was home on break) and then I confronted him during a counselling session with the knowledge she had given me. It was so difficult but she KNEW. My daughter knew before I told her and she knew the pain I was going through. Though it hasn't affected her schooling much (she still get pretty good grades) It caused her a great deal of anger and stilted her own personal relationships growth. Now she has major problems with trust and she is very critical of men in particular. They have to be perfect for her to even give them her attention. Some would say that's not a bad thing but I think she's limiting herself in who she meets and how she deals with people.<BR>So, don't think this stuff doesn't change the kids, it does, maybe some more subtly than other but it definately does make changes in the kids and their behavior's. God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

My brother's 16 year old says her parents' divorce, final this past summer, was the hardest thing she's ever been through. She's in counseling for depression and used to be a really happy kid.<P>My 14 year old is so angry and worried I WISH I could get her into counseling. She's never had a grade below a B & many times had all A's, this midterm she had a D. True, it was in advanced math/algebra...but it is still a worry because the comment on the midterm included "uncompleted assignments". <P>I hate that this has happened to my kids. Guard says we can have our happy family back...oh, really?

doc, nomas, bren, Lor,<P>Please forgive me for not replying to you each individually. i am so upset right now I can barely think. Thank you all for your words.<P>The timing on this sucks because I am now packing for an out of town tournament with my youngest son. I can't even be here for my oldest and I have to try to put a smile on this weekend. My parents are meeting us at the tournament and i haven't seen them in two years. They are totally unaware of what happened.<P>Please say an extra prayer for me. I haven't been this angry since last summer.

Lor,<P>I know that I am the cause of all of the pain of my daughters and of you. It is my fault that they are suffering with this. I am so sorry for having devastated our family. <P>I continue to ask you for forgiveness, and I ask that from the girls also. I will continue to be repentent, and work to restore there trust in me, and to try to heal all of the pain that I caused them. <P>I know that it won't happen over night, but I am committed to live my life as a spirit filled christian man that you and the girls need me to be. <P>Yes, I do have faith that we can be a happy family again. I do believe that God can restore anything. Please read post to Woozy on her 7 yr old. Also please read BrokenButNotCrushed's story of hope.<P>I love you with all of my heart and my soul, and love the children with all of my heart and soul. I will do what ever it takes, through God's will and direction to restore our family. I will be patient and prayerful.<P>Kevin

Guard<BR>I consider Lor to be one of my dear friends. <BR>There is nothing I would like more than to see the two of you succeed in bringing your family back together.<P>I beg you PLEASE to communicate with your children. Heal what has happened to them. My son has been seriously affected by all of this. He has no respect for his father. <P>My H should have talked to him. He should have brought things out in the open. He should have dealt directly with his son. <P>Instead he put his head in the sand and hoped everything would just heal itself. If he waited long enough he felt that everything would just go away. It won't. It is up to him to repair the relationship with his son. I hope and pray that some day he will have the courage to do that.<P>Please Guard, back up your words. I want so badly for the two of you to succeed!<BR>God can restore things but you have to be His tool.<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited March 10, 2000).]

My W told our boys (now 13 and 11) what she had done because she thought I had done it already. Now I use what she has done as an opportunity to teach them the right way to deal with such matters. I talk with them regularly to ease any pain that they are going through because they need to know that someone they love is their for them. My W was not as fortunate as our boys. I believe this has caused her to think in the way that she does. Her logic makes my head hurt sometime.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

This thread came at the appropriate time for me. That is one thing about this forum...when you need something, advice, pick-me-up, information, humor, hugs, or just to care for others, it seems to happen when you need it.<P>Short background...my wife and I are part-time staff members at out church. When the minister found out about her affair he did Christian Lovebusting royally and pushed into quiting. She used an excuse that her other job demanded too much time (it is a temp type position). The affair is not public knowledge at church but I think it now may come out. As we were talking last night I said that I was afraid that our daughter (13) will get hurt. My W's comment was (maybe this should make the "hurtful things wayswards say, and later didn't really mean?" thread. She won't get hurt.<P>Our daughter has know about the affair for about 3 months and she has tried to not let it get to her. The problem is that kids do see the hurt in others even if you try to hide it. They also see the anger, the frustration, and fear that we have.<P>The sad part of the effect on the kids is that it forces them to make choices they shouldn't have to make. Our responsibility is to keep the love and care connections open to the children and in love express to our spouses that they to need to exhibit that. Also, what ever we go through, teach your children that they can love their parent(s) without fear of being used or put down.<P>My prayers and thoughts are with y'all and our families.

WS,<BR>More then just a bump or a pot hole......do you have Yellow Barrels, like we do? BIG obstacals!!!! <BR>I think you hit it right on the head yourself! Your H should have talked with them. Not as much of what he did, (no details) but how bad he feels that it happened at all, and how and what he is going to do about it. Also, how he feels about their Mother now......... If they have to learn about this kind of terrible thing...... they at least will learn a lesson of how NOT to throw in the towel and to move on like you have done. <BR>IT'S NOT TOO LATE. Your H can still make mends with them, after all......he did this to the entire family. He could really come out smelling like a rose if he put some effort into it. That would even pump you up, WS, he would gain more respect in your eyes........and of course, get some praise from you, and help his self esteem.<BR>Talk to him.....then talk some more!<P>Another thing that helps is telling the kids the good things he is doing for you right now..... I have kept my kids (25 and 28yrs. old) abreast of our progress.....of little things that my H says.....the other day he thanked me for letting him be a part of this road to our expected Grand Daughter......(5 days and counting!!!!!!) Infact he was saying.... Thank you for taking him back! I told my Daughter, she was so pleased that he talked like that.......((((((( I was shocked )))))).....he's not a talker as you know. <BR>So.....even now.....after 2 years of recovery, I don't push it under the rug....they don't ask....but I help them by reasuring their thoughts. I know they need it as much as I do...... Some times I even say....." Dad and I are so happy now" !!!..... Soooo, you may have to do it on your own if he can't. That's OK, if that's all you can do. It is so neat to see them smile and have warm feelings....... It will help you so much too.<P>Your Friend.....<BR>Finally Happy<P>-------<BR>TIME <p>[This message has been edited by Almost Happy (edited March 10, 2000).]

I want to hear more.....please anyone else have any more signs of what the affair did to the children?<P>Our children are young 7&9<BR>they are sad<BR>their grades have dropped<BR>they fight with each other more<BR>they don't leave my sight<BR>everytime they do something wrong...they ask....do you still love me?<BR>Our 9 Year old is smart cookie...too smart<BR>Our 7 year old cries at the drop of a dime<BR>They think showing love is hurting people and that a simple sorry makes it all go away<BR>When they come home from a visit with dad...they just fall asleep....not from exhaustion either<P>I have watched them turn into 2 unhappy children and I have tried everything.<P>I take blame<P>I tried hard to keep "happy" thoughts of dad in their minds<P>When they come home from their dads and say they did nothing....I try to find something they did and play it up.<P>I try so hard to keep things simple....structure.....<P>People told me to watch them...thatthat they will try and play the two of us...haven't noticed that yet.<P>They give up easily on everything. If it requires time and patience....they simply stop and do something that takes no "brains".<P>They are very leary of men. They don't trust a thing their dad says and question everything he does and says.<P>They heard alot from him...saw alot from him...he has totally screwed them up.<P>So no one can tell me differently.

Sorry<p>[This message has been edited by Almost Happy (edited March 10, 2000).]

Wasstubborn,<P>I know how hard this is on the older kids. It seems like my 18 year old suffered alot more than my 9 year old. My son didn't graduate with his class because of his fathers mid-life crisis and our divorce. He has been in a depressed funk for over a year and it is extremely hard to help someone at this age, they are trying to get out on their own, they arent' looking for mommy's advise. <P>All you can do is show him that you are now ok and will be fine. I know that it is really hard to have to be strong all the time, but they need that to let go. Your son will be fine, there is no time limit on college, he will get in and he will succeed, with our without college. You might try a community college that transfers credit. There our also alot of online courses, that is how my son got his diploma and he did go to college. He failed the first quarter and I am praying for him onthis or he is out. It is so tough on them. My son just doesn't have a postive male role model. My son and my ex-h go to "raves" together on the weekend. My ex-h is at about the same emotional level as my son. It is extremely hard to deal. Hang tough and Ill say a prayer.<P>Gerri

My daughters are now ages 19 and 20. They saw changes in their father right from the start. They would ask me if he was going through a MLC. He always had a good story for his whereabouts and some were very strange. My H has left me twice so far to be with OW. The girls have to see me cry sometimes and I believe this scares them. They love their father and he has been a great father to them, but this is hurting them. He admits he should have talked to them long ago and when he does it is hard for him. I am sure he is feeling guilt.<P>I have read somewhere and I cannot recall the source that a situation like this causes more harm to older children. Both of them are in college now and sometimes the grades start slipping or they don't go to school and I am not sure if it is just being lazy or of the pain hidden within them that is causing this.<P>Another thing I read in the book "Adultery, The Forgivable Sin" is that adult daughters of adulterous fathers can become angry and mistrusting of men. Their self-esteem suffers. This might lead to marrying the wrong type of person such as an adulter or they themselves will become part of a love triangle trying to get someone that is unavailable.<P>I choose to want my husband back for my own needs. I am not trying to make him come home because of children, I guess I am being selfish, but my selfishness will help them in the long run should h and I get back together and have a normal healthy relationship. <P>Good luck everyone and hang in there. <P>Pam<p>[This message has been edited by Pinky (edited March 10, 2000).]

First let me say thank you <B>Wassi</B> for posting this topic. Thank you too, to all those that have replied so far. All of what everyone here has said is so true. It helps us all to support, encourage one another and process this "disease" we are all being effected by.<P>Well, I couldn't let this one go by. This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart and plagues my mind. It is all so complicated.<P>This is a part of a letter I wrote to the OW but, have never sent. It's explains our 14 year old daughter.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have offered my H to go to you many times. Those offers were indeed generous too, as there is no way I want to loose my beloved husband for even a minute. Especially to you, as D has more and deeper resentment of you than I have. She really hates you! Wishes she could physically hurt you and spit in your face.<P>I have tried to help her understand how this all happened. That you alone are not to blame. That the three of us; being he, you and I share that blame. That she needs to forgive. So far that is to no avail. <P>She has been in therapy by her own choosing to deal with all this. She requests that she be allowed to continue. She has wished her father would “go to you and marry you so that she could make your life a living hell.” That comes from her own mouth not mine. <P>She was the most loving, happy and wonderful child anyone could ever have. Everyone commented on her sweetness, innocence and inner beauty. The sparkle in her eyes. People felt good when they were around her. Her moods were contagious and they were always good. She was a very kind child. Until your affair with my husband started. <P>Even though none of us here knew that the affair was happening, she became more and more depressed but, managed to maintain her image outside of our home. She continued to be a joy to all she knew and met. Magical was a good description of her.<P>She was one of the most popular girls in school. Our phone never seemed to quit ringing for her. Kids would be here all the time. Our home was always filled with many of her friends who would come to hang out. Whether it was for refuge, lack of anything better to do, or just for fun. (Unfortunately her Daddy was not here much and never interacted or got to share in the joy of having these many children around.) She was always there for anyone who needed her. She always tried to lend her ear and heart to anyone who needed it.<P>When she discovered what had happened between you and her Daddy she changed. At first her friends tried to stick by her. They tried to help and kept asking her what had happened and what was wrong? She withdrew farther and farther into herself. Eventually as children do, many pulled away.<BR>She became unhappy nearly all the time and filled with such anger and hatred. Not to mention fear.<P>She will never look at men in the same light as before. H thinks maybe that is good because she needs to know that guys are dogs at heart. (Those are his words not mine.)<P>Her Daddy's infidelity with you will effect her always. Just as H's father's infidelity effected him. To the extent of doing the exact same thing his own father did. Our sins revisit our children. You may not believe that but, it is true. Daughter was the exact age that H was when his father hooked up with a factory rat wh%#e at the GM plant he worked at. His sister did the same thing to her husband at the same time you were carrying on with H. She went on to divorce her husband and now has married the man she had the affair with. His sisters first husband carried on with many women and had many affairs. The disease you helped spread is very contagious.<P>By the grace of God our daughter will totally heal from this and never commit or be a victim to infidelity again. I pray that your son never does it to the women that will eventually come into his life either.<P>She has healed some. Still she really hates you and would never accept you with her Daddy, no matter what happens to he and I, or even to me. Even if I should die you would always be way too painful for her to ever accept no matter what. She would readily accept any other woman but never you. If you should ever find yourself with my husband, please remember that...please! Please put your selfish desires and behavior aside and think about her and her needs and walk away. You will only hurt her. Never forget either, she is the most important thing in H life, (other than God and myself) and she will never ever accept you no matter how hard you might try.<P>I pray for her total healing and for her to forgive you because it is so important for her and her growth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here is a link to a poem my daughter wrote about the OW.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum18/HTML/000073.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum18/HTML/000073.html</A> <BR>She had put it up on her bedroom wall last summer hoping her Dad would discover it. We don't invade her privacy much and she has so much stuff on her walls every where that it was never noticed. <P>A few months later we (her and I) were doing some minor redecorating of her room and I ran across it. I asked her about it and she gave me the above explanation. I was in shock. Later I showed it to her Dad. First he wanted to know who "Pamela" was? I was astounded! Then when I told him and he read it again. He got weird grin on his face (I think it was pride because he thought the poem was well written) and said she is just a kid, she'll get over it. I pray to God he is right. He spoke to her briefly about her poem. He told her she shouldn't feel that way.<P>Our daughter is, after over a year past recovery, still struggling so much. The other day she said she hated guys and all of the male gender could die. I asked her what about Daddy and her two Grandfathers? She replied "Them too." That only two of her male friends needed to keep living all the rest including the boys she has a crush on could die. She said she hated females too. That they are petty, %itches, and weak. They make her sick. So she is destined to have a life alone because by hating both genders she cannot ever hook up with either one of them.<P>Later that same evening I was getting ready for her Daddy to come home and making myself "petty." Part of Plan A. I asked her how I looked? She said good but, why do you care? I merely said that I wanted her Daddy to find me attractive just like she wants the boys she is interested in to find her attractive. She came unglued. She said to me "You're one of the main reasons that I hate girls! It is sickening how Dad has become your whole life and that you care how much about what he thinks." I was taken aback by that. I didn't react and knew she was blowing off steam. I tried not to take it personally.<P>A few days later she said thank you for something I had gotten her and that she loved me. I was teasing her and said "Oh really? A few days ago you said that I was the reason you hated the female gender." She said "I didn't say that." I reminded her of the instance and she said that "Oh Mom, I love you and I really didn't mean that." I know at the time she said it she did mean it. We all say things in moments of anger that we don't mean or wish we could take back. Still though, usually there is some truth in some of what we have said. <P>It saddens me greatly to see that she views doing the right thing as "weak." Doing the right thing is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Leaving this marriage when I had found out would have been easier in a long run. I would have still hurt greatly but, it would have had a certain finality to it. By now the pain would not have been felt so much. I wouldn't have had to work so hard. Still my daughter views it as weak and needy. Hopefully that will change in time as she learns and grows.<P>I remember her being so angry at me for not kicking her Dad out of the house. I remember a few times when she said "If Daddy doesn't want me and you then screw him! He can leave and have the %itch." This child took what her Daddy did personally. He did it to her in her mind too. To her he betrayed us both. I naturally explained that it was not about her at all. I don't think she believes what I said in her heart. Her self esteem is at an all time low. Her level of confidence is horrible. After all if Daddy could do this to her then she can't be worth much? <P>I also remember many months later, her telling me that "It is all my fault that Daddy had the affair. If I had just been better, got better grades....ect." I told her that there was no way she was responsible. That her Dad stayed here at first only because of her and the commitment he made to me in front of God. (my husband has said since the beginning after discovery that "God did leave any way out in the marraige vows!) I know she heard and understood what I said and I believe she knows it is the truth. I don't think however she feels it is the truth. That is what is important here is what she feels.<P> <P>She struggles with her feelings about God. Whether there is one or not. Some of that is normal teenage questioning. Some of it is a result of what has happened in our home. She wonders how there could be a God if such painful things could happen to her, when after all she had nothing to do with them? How could there be a God if her mother who tries to lead a Godly life could be hurt so badly? How could God let this happen? This saddens me the most. <P>The saving grace in all of this is God. I know that by her Daddy and I staying together and trying to work this out, we are showing her a good thing. If by again God's grace and our hard work, we stay together and eventually become happy again, then we have shown her that good and Godly things can come of even the worst of bad situations.<P>In the meantime we all have to hurt, learn and grow. I pray that everyone here on this site and we here in this house do so as expediently as God in his infinite wisdom and mercy allows.<P><B>Anyone no matter if they are betrayed, betrayer, OW or OM who says or thinks that this does not negatively impact the children are full of garbage. We can't feel what they feel but, I suspect the feelings for them are even more profound than they are for us?</B><P>Now I have as usual said too much as it is! I am a hard one to shut up. I apologize for the length of this reply. It is just a subject I have so much feeling about and so much to say. Bye bye for now. Much love to each and every one of you.<P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't loose. What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited March 10, 2000).]

Hi Samantha,<P>It must be a family pattern because my h had to go through this when he was about the same age as my daughters are. His mom had a drinking problem but another woman came into the picture. His dad ended marrying ow and life has been a living hell for my H with this woman.<P>Also, my h's OW has told him that she had an affair with a married man before that lasted a while and she confessed to a lesbian affair. She was at first married longago and has two children. No one is sure why the marriage ended. Makes one wonder about her family history.<P>This disease must be stopped! It is spreading to fast!<P>Pam<p>[This message has been edited by Pinky (edited March 10, 2000).]

Samantha,<P>Thank you for taking the time to writing all of that down. It does give me hope and reassurance in God's plan for me, and for my family, in that it is not too late.<P>I am the betrayer, and one who was in denial about it not affecting my children. I now pray my most strident prayer for the healing of all of the pain and hurt that I have inflicted on my W and my children. I have devastated them so badly. I will just continue to walk in the light of God, and hope that his Grace will fall on me and my family.

One more thing I want to add to my post above is that one day my youngest daughter asked me why is dad doing this when he had to go through this himself? I could not answer her and am bewildered myself.<P>Does OW woman actually think that over time things will heal and my kids will accept her? I think not and she would never be welcome at any event for my kids like weddings, graduation. Way to much pain involved.<P>Pam<BR>

<B>Pinky</B><P>It definitely runs in families. I highly recommend the book "Torn Asunder." Here is the link...<P> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802477488/o/qid=952735558/sr=2-1/104-1177961-7047663" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802477488/o/qid=952735558/sr=2-1/104-1177961-7047663</A> <P>The book doesn't apply in many ways to my situation and us. First of all in comes from a strong Christian view point and deals a lot with both spouses having a close relationship with God. My husband in my opinion does not have a close relationship with God. Secondly our marriage had gotten horrible. <B>(Did anyone here have a horribly bad marriage before the affair started?)</B> I think however for you in would be well worth the read and worth it for most of us. I did get insights out of it and understanding. I just yet haven't found a book besides SAA by Harley that fit us as well.<P>I found out just last night that husband's OW was still married when this secret friendship first started out. He says she was seperated. (She was sleeping on the couch and wanted her husband out. He did not want out of the marriage and wouldn't leave. This was his second marriage. Makes me wonder if she was instrumental in the ending of that marriage?) She was also dating another friend of his from the plant at the same time. He happened to have lost his wife a while before because of infidelity. What a tangled web they all wove huh?<P>I wonder too about the dynamics of her family when she was growing up? She was on her second marriage when she reintroduced herself to my husband. (They had known one another barely when they were in their early teens but, were never friends. She had a crush on him from afar during the rest of their school years. He never knew and barely knew she had ever existed.)<P>She divorced her first husband after ten years and married the second when she knew she wasn't or had ever been in love with him. I am sure she has much baggage too.<P>I know my husband's OW felt that kids will move on and just adjust. I don't think intelligence is one of her strong points!<P>I think you may find out the answer to your daughters question in the book. As a matter of fact thinking back on your story I think that perhaps this book is just what you need. I hope that you order or go out and by the book post haste.<P><B>Guard</B><P>I know both your wife and you. I have followed your story and pray for the restoration of your marriage.<P>Your also very welcome. I am glad that the reply gave you hope. <P>Your wife has been through much pain and so have your children as you know. Remember that God has forgiven you. Your wife has forgiven you often and by the grace of God, she will be able to again. But, you are right no matter what happens God does indeed have a plan for you. <P>The most important thing is that you keep up your resolve to stay close to God. Do his will and work daily on becoming first a better servant to Him! The rest will fall into place just as it should.<P>I also recommend considering your relationship with God to read "Torn Asunder." I think that you will find it very beneficial.<P><B>Before I get any wordier here I will remember to keep both you (Guard & Pinky) in my prayers tonight.</B><P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't loose. What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B>