My W and I have been separated for 3 months (see "Can this marriage survive"). She has moved out in to an apartment of her own. She has been involved in an affair with a single guy now for 8 months. This guy chased her for 2 years at the medical centre where she works as a receptionist (he was a patient). She finally gave in to his advances.<P>HERE IS MY PROBLEM!!!<P>She has recently (6 weeks ago) introduced OM to my 11 year old daughter. I am enraged that he is now integrating to our family as a possible SF to my daughter. My particular concern is that I do not approve of this OMs morals having chased a woman that he knew to be married with a family (less than noble in my opinion). <P>Although he is not living with my W he is often around of an evening. My wife has told my daughter that he is just a friend. It hurts to know that my daughter is taking this guy at face value with no perception that he is the reason her M and D being separated.<P>I feel I would like to explain the facts of the affair to my daughter but am afraid that it may do more harm than good. I have read conflicting views on how much a child should be told. The thought of this man becoming attached to my daughter absolutely repulses me.<P>Any suggestions?<P>Fairenough <P>

She probably already suspects more than you realize.<P>I feel that opening up the conversation to her and letting her guide you might help. Talk to her about how she feels and answer her questions.<P>My H told my 11 yearold son about his affair. It hurt, but it also explained a lot of things to my son about our actions. I am going to start my son in councelling, because he still feels very insecure and his grades and behavior are slipping. I feel this would have happened even if he didn't know and possibly could have been worse. My 10 yearold son does not know and has never asked. He is not sensitive and probably doesn't even realize there is anything wrong, but my H still lives with us so that makes a big difference.<P>

Whatever your feelings are-DON'T DO ANYTHING! This could slam back in your face if you try to explain who this guy is. Your daughter will not believe you and think your talking down her mother and then your wife would get angry with you in thinking your trying to influence your daughter. I know, I am a mother of a daughter who tried to make her father look good for too long. You shouldn't have to explain things to your daughter, let her figure things out on her own, otherwise it will only hurt your relationship with her.<BR>I know this is difficult but stay away from explainations unless she asks and then if she asks tell her as much of the truth as you think she can handle, without opinions! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>

Essyboo and Chick's thanks to both of you for your support. It is an area I have pondered over for some time.<P>I think both of you are saying similar in that I should just answer questions as honestly as I can taking respect for my daughter's feelings. The last thing I need is to have her as the meat in the sandwich and appear to be putting her M down.<P>I am still on very good terms with her M despite all the drama and I want to keep it that way until she comes back from the wilderness.<P>Thanks again<BR>Fairenough

fairenough,<P><B>It depends</B>... (don't you just love these kinds of replies?)<P>My situation was somewhat different...<BR>I have 3 kids (7yo girl, 10yo boy, 17yo boy).<BR>About 3 weeks after discovery... my W sits down and tells the kids...<BR>"...Mommy has a friend...<BR>Yes... mommy is committing adultery...<BR>it is a sin... but sometimes you have to do wrong to feel better... <BR>that way I can be a better mom!..."<P>I <I>cringe</I> everytime I tell people this...<BR>They stare at me in disbelief...<BR>Especially since they know my W was a CCD (religious ED) teacher for 6+ years... and got me involved in the CCD too!<P>So my W... "told" the kids!<BR>I was going to tell them anyway (a little later)... but she wanted to tell them first.<P>Our family is (used to be) very open in communications... especially when it involved "faith" matters.<P>I have a very close relationship with all my kids and feel I can talk just about anything... so I do!<P>I constantly stress... we need to love mom like always... but we have to separate the sin from the sinner... Love the sinner... hate the sin! My kids do, I feel, understand... even the 7 yo!<P><B>HOWEVER</B>... when it comes to having the OM... forced onto the kids... as a possible Step-father... <BR><B>Or</B>... as my W wrote to the OM... the "new man in their lives"... when she thought custody to her was going to be automatic...<BR><B>I DRAW THE LINE</B>... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> <B>OR NOT</B>!<P>Because I had to counter-file a divorce... since physical custody was going to be an issue... it worked out that I got a few restrianing orders (1. no overnights for OM with my kids... and 2. OM can't come int my house anymore...-he did on a buiness trip I was on.)<P>The influence of an immoral OM (still married to his 2nd W... and still is)... on my kids I will not tolerate... The laws still allow contact between OM and my kids during the day (visits to their mom)... but NO OVERNIGHTS! Since OM(sponge) moved into my W's apartment... days after I helped her move out... they(W & OM) are living together. When my kids visit... he packs up his things... to go to his mommy's house(yeah... 42yo.)<P>I do believe your daughter knows alot more of what is going on... If you are <B>really open</B> with your daughter... I find <B>NO PROBLEM</B> voicing you opinions... morals... <B>but</B>... remember... D must not lose love for mom (love the sinner... hate the sin.)<P>Maybe my situation is a little odd...<BR>But that is how I handled it!<P>So far so good...<BR>Yes... counseling was needed... by only for my oldest!<P>If you'd like to e-mail on this...<BR>imherczeg@yahoo.com<P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...<P><p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 02, 1999).]

I think you need to really think about why you want to tell your daughter. Is it to make your W look bad and punish her? Think real hard about that. That is the wrong reason to tell your daughter. And it might backfire on you because she might feel you are attacking her mom and want to defend her. Girls that age are very smart and she probably already figured things out. Let her deal with it in her own way. Don't use her to get get back at your W.<P>Del

I think you and your spouse need to tell her together. If she doesn't hear it from you she will eventually hear it from someone else. Your wife can tell her whatever she wants and you have no control over that but you also need to make it clear to your daughter where you stand in regards to adultery. As NSR said you also can establish some rules about contact with OM.<P>I also recommend you read an article on this web site about the lessons children learn from infidelity. It can be found at: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html</A> <P>Good luck.

I don't think there is a right answer. Sure our sons knew something was wrong. Whether or not they had a clue of what the real problem was we don't know. We have never discussed this with them. And since we are still together and really making our marriage work I don't know if we ever will tell them. We now only try to show them how much we love each other now. Somehow, someday I want to help prepare them so this will not happen in their marriages. They are 19 and 22.<P>"It's the little things that mean so much!"

My H and I have 6 kids, ages 4-19. My H introduced the OW to the four younger kids as a "friend from work" - six weeks after he moved out. As soon as our then 16 year old found out, she was absolutely certain of what she had suspected all along - that he had been having an affair. Whether to tell our oldest daughter was then more or less a moot point. <P>She immediately let our son know that it was a "girlfriend" which you would think would have been obvious to him, but apparently wasn't. Over the next few weeks he asked over and over again why daddy had spent so much time away from home during the months before he left. Then one night, when he told me how awful it was for parents to keep secrets from their children, I began to suspect that he knew more than he was letting on - I still don't know for certain how much he knew, but I told him that his father had been seeing her before he left. My H and the therapist were furious with me, even though I didn't mention sex to him. I don't have much respect for that therapist in general - although she did tell my H that he should never have introduced the kids to the OW that soon, she actually thought I should want the kids to be close to the OW.<P>Our younger ones don't know that he was seeing her before he left. A few weeks after he introduced them, our seven year old stayed overnight with him, and he took her to the OW's house where my H spent the night in the OW's room. The kids know he is living with her, and the lawyer I talked to said I could do nothing about preventing overnights.<P>My H told our oldest daughter that he had met the OW by placing an internet personal, and that it wasn't the first ad he placed (I have no idea why he added that)<P>I am torn about telling the 7 and 10 year olds that he was having an affair before he left. Obviously some day they will find out, and I worry that they will be furious that I kept it from them, and no longer trust me either. They know that I believe that what their father and the OW are doing is very, very wrong. I think if I had it to do over again, I would tell all of them as soon as I found out. <P>Children will not automatically learn that infidelity is wrong - in fact they will learn just the opposite from the betrayer. I think that as a parent I would be remiss in my responsibility to raise moral children if I did not tell my kids that what their father is doing is wrong.

Many thanks to one and all for the help.<P>Delphi questioned my motives for wanting to tell. I will try to explain. At the moment we have the OM visiting my wife and daughter and doing all the right things, eg, building cubby houses, etc, etc. Generally just one big happy family.<P>On the other hand we have Dad trying to come to terms with the whole issue and only having visitation rights to his D. It just hurts so much that this OM can integrate to my D life so easily with a huge deception taking place as to why he is there. I don't agree with his morals and I don't want him being the SF to my daughter in spirit.<P>I guess that what I really would like is to have my daughter fully aware of why her M and D are separated, other than the issues my wife has explained to her in defence of her selfish actions.<P>Do you think this is unreasonable? I believe when children are misled it can make it very hard for them when they find out the truth. When they do find out the truth they wonder why the parents that they trusted were dishonest with them. They can then draw rather hard judgments on those that have lied to them. I think my D is old enough to accept the truth if it is given with thought and consideration. I also believe that we can underestimate their perceptions, she is a very intelligent child.<P>Jim, your views on love the sinner but hate the sin sums up my feelings.<P>Regards<BR>Fairenough

Your daughter is 11? She's already figured it out. Even if she's sheltered and not worldly at all, she's already figured it out.<P>If she's not yet asked you anything about it, then she's not yet ready to hear. She's working this out in her own head and heart. She's already feeling some disappointment in mom. You know, a lot like kids once they've figured out there's NO Santa Claus, they know it deep down inside, but they're not quite ready to hear YOU say it yet.<P>Give her time. She'll bring it up on her own - eventually. Then you can talk with her. But give her only what she asks for. She will process the conflict w/in herself at her own pace. Too much, too soon (I mean, we're talking about MOM here) will just thow her into turmoil. You just have to be there for her.<P>As far as morals are concerned, very little has to be said. At her age, she knows what's right and wrong in a marriage. And children learn less from what you say to them than from what they see you live. Mom's behavior will have an impact, but she will see the consequences. She'll learn more from your steadfast love for her, your living by your convictions than she ever would from any "talk" you may have.She won't consider it a lack of honesty, but an example of compassion and grace.<P>Just my 2 cents.<P>Lori

Lori<P>Thanks so much for your perspective. It sheds a light on the topic that only a Mother could provide. You women are so good at relationship issues your skills in these areas never cease to amaze me. <P>Incidently my W told me that D had asked if the OM was Moms boyfriend and W told her that he was just a friend of the family. She told me that her reasons for saying that was she didn't want D to mention it at her school (gossip ... gossip) as there was only 3 weeks to go till summer vacation. So D suffers once again for my Wifes selfish reasons. My W is constantly more worried about what other people will think than the real issues of concern. <P>I really feel strongly that my D should know all there is to know about the circumstances along the lines that Jim proposed (separaing the sin and the sinner) . I am still however resrving the issue till it is clear in my head. Perhaps a visit to a councilor is warranted to discusss further. <P>The last thing I would wish is to upset my D over the issue.<P>Thanks once again<BR>Fairenough

fairenough,<P>My 13 year old son was furious at the thought that either of his parents would keep important secrets from him. One would expect that a 13 year old would immediately figure out that daddy's "friend" was a girlfriend, but he didn't until his older sister told him. I am constantly amazed at how unworldly my four youngest are - the oldest two probably are more worldly than I (perhaps because of all the romance novels they read?). If you think she will be angry later if she thinks you deceived her also, I would say tell her now. I don't think it is safe to assume that she already knows - my 10 year old did not.<P>What if she mentions her mother's friend at school, as if it were perfectly normal? Won't there be gossip, and won't other children who know more give her an incredibly hard time? It would be horrible if she learned it from them.

From what you said I think you are saying that you are angry that this man would have a possible SF relationship with your D. I'm sure everyone supports you in that including me. But I think you want to hurt any relationship your D might have w/the OM in the future. You want her to hate him like you do for having an EMA w/your W and taking her. Is this really good for your D? Your W has done a terrible thing. But now the OM is there and might become a SF. Your D will need to live with that. Why make it harder for her? I still think part of your motives is to punish your W and the OM by turning your D against them. I think lots of people would want to do this and probably do. But I think it is not best for your D. She will figure things out on her own without your help. Like Lotsva said she already knows but just doesn't want to deal with it yet. Don't force her to just to try and and get back at your W and OM.

Delphi,<BR>I disagree. How is the daughter going to feel if she becomes fond of the OM and later on discovers what kind of man he is? She would likely feel like she had been made a fool of. How is she going to feel about both her parents when she realizes that both of them deceived her? It is far better to know from the beginning than to become disillusioned later. <P>

Folks<P>Thanks for your replies, it is getting clearer to me which way I should go.<P>The way I feel is that Mom is in no position to explain to D about the OM. Mom's views are totally clouded at this point with "romantic love" so morally in her eyes she or he is doing nothing wrong. But just in case let's not tell D anyway just to be sure!! <P>On the other hand D needs someone to explain why she all of a sudden hasn't got a live in Daddy and is having a SF thrust at her in his place. Does this sound unreasonable?<P>Putting myself in her place I believe that the truth explained correctly would be appreciated both in the short and long term. <P>It would probably go a long way to reconciling her beliefs in her own mind. <P>What do you all think?<P>Regards<BR>Fairenough

Fairenough,<BR>I feel that you and your wife should tell your daughter together. And of course, HOW you tell her is crucial. As much as you feel betrayed, angry, hurt, and you want your wife not to be taking a cruise on easy street as a result of all your anguish, NONE of that should be your daughter’s burden to bear. She should also not be told what her opinion of the OM should be. Give her enough credit to reach that conclusion on her own. After all, the OM may seriously lack in character when it comes to upholding certain morals, but it doesn’t mean he can’t be kind and good to your daughter. In the end, wouldn’t you want that for her? Indeed, the ONLY purpose for telling her should be to answer any unanswered questions she may currently be sorting out in her head. By telling her together, she will see you are united (if not in marriage, in your concern for her as parents), and she will not have to suffer the terrible internal pull of being disloyal to one parent or the other. <BR>

2 things should be highly considered...<P>1. the mental/emotional/moral maturity of the child (not just physical age).<P>2. the openness of communication between parent and child.<P>I don't know where you (fairenough) stand with you daughter on any of these... That's a judgment call each parent must make.<P>But I feel that <B>honesty</B> above all else has to prevail...<P>Honesty in expressing a need to <B>really</B> love her mother... Not a fake... "go ahead and love mum..."<P>Honesty in your wish not to punish your W...<BR>If punishing your W is a goal... stop right there... (Delphi is right there!)<P>Honesty in showing <B>your</B> unreplacable love for your daughter!<P>Honesty about <B>all</B> eventual possibilities including a SF situation... and how you percieve to exist.<P>Honesty about your view of the <B>OM</B> doesn't have to be given... in fact, should not be given... especially if it is just a deep hatred...(too clouded by you nearness to the situation)... That's a personal thought.<P><B>But</B> honesty of your concern for you daughter's well being is OK and good!<P>A child's need for honesty shouldn't be pushed aside... just because they're children... You can only hurt them and your relationship with them if <B>every</B> aspect of life has to be covered up from them. They can and will respect you better... if <B>you are honest with them about your feelings too.</B><P>Just my perspective on a very touchy issue.<P>Jim

I think that to a certain point kids don't want to know about their parents marriages or divorces. They just want to be able to love their parents even when they are making bad choices. If she finds out later you just say, look this was about our marriage and not about our love for you. Maybe the OM here will turn out to be an OK SF even though things have started out so badly. Wouldn't that be best for the D? Why try to poisen it from the start? If she finds out later that the relationship started out as an affair, she might decide to forgive him and her Mom which would also be best for her mental wellbeing. Just as sometimes betrayed forgive betrayers when they come back. Yes the W shouldn't be doing this, it is terrible. But lets stop and think about what's best for the D. If this OM is going to be in her mom's life longterm, it's best for her to get along with him. Forget about what her mom deserves, etc. This is just what I think as a mother, and everyone else might feel different which is OK.<P>Del

I'm sorta w/ Del here. And I believe in honesty. I have NEVER lied to my daughter. About anything. My life, my past, my beliefs, nothing. Even the hard questions, even the things I'm not so proud of - and some of them are really hard.<P>She knows this. She comes to me. She feels free to say I'm not ready to talk about it if I bring it up. She feels free to offer her own opinion, no matter how different it may be. She is, in her mother's opinion, an absolutely wonderful and phenomenal young lady.<P>I do understand you're wanting to talk w/ her, but please try to remember that by doing so, you could be untentially putting her in the middle. Making her "take sides" and, at her tender age, in her immature mind, forcing her to divide her loyalties. Kids think differently than we do. Just feeling "I love Mommy, but she's doing something wrong" makes THEM feel as if THEY are doing something wrong too. And love the sinner, hate the sin is a concept that not all children are able to grasp at 11. And I'm sorry. I know how I'M feeling right now. To have such a discussion, it would be next to impossible not to have some of my pain show through. And they see everything, no matter how we try to hide it.<P>Please be careful. And whatever you do, do it WITH her mother. She still needs a united front where SHE is concerned. No character judgements, not about mom or the OM. She may have to accept some sort of relationship someday. Please make it easy for her. She should be able to do that w/out feeling disloyal to you.<P>You're a really great dad. And I think a talk w/ a counsellor is a great idea. ONly you and your wife know the BEST way to handle this with your own daughter. <P>Best of luck to you. You'll be just fine.<P>Lori