WS and I are reading the same book. The Forgiveness Workbook by Les Carter and Minirth. It is a 12 step process for releasing anger and bitterness and choosing Forgiveness. <P>I actually read this months ago and found it helped me with a lot of areas in life and my life has been relatively easy. It showed me new ways to think about many things.<P>It wasn't something that I read and "whalaa" was able to magically forgive, but more a clarification on what forgiveness is and isn't plus a way to grow a forgiving spirit in my heart.<P>It is a Christian book, but I can not see how all would not benefit from reading it. Smedes and others also write books about forgiveness, so anyone with other thoughts, or those of you who just want to discuss forgiveness join right in.<P>Step one was about validating feelings and letting yourself feel them. I think WS has more thoughts on this than I. I am so good at spinning even my own feelings, I am not sure if I invalidate them or move through them quickly and channel them. I am sure I was taught to minimize my own feelings.<P>Anyway, WS and others, I started this thread and I have to go find my book for a more intelligent discussion...think its in the car as I have been rereading it.<P>I'm looking forward to hearing from you.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL<BR>This book is not just about forgiving is it? I think it is a twelve step program towards healing ourselves!!!<BR>The first step is "Openly recognize wrong deeds to be wrong deeds."<BR>I think this is where most of us fail ourselves. We spend so much time beating up on ourselves for what we are feeling. The book seems to say that we have to stop telling ourselves what we should be feeling. Stop letting others tell us what we are feeling. Just acknowledge the pain. It was wrong for someone to do this. We feel pain, anger depression...(are you listening Deb?).<BR>those feelings are real, valid, and there is nothing wrong with us for feeling that way.<BR>We often see the wrongs but focus on our own shortcomings. We have to separate the two.<BR> Yes we have faults but in order to deal with what has happened we have to acknowledge the depth of our feelings and realize that we are not to blame.<BR>I think I have a tendancy to blame myself.<BR>What my H did was wrong. It hurt me. It is not my fault. I am not wrong to feel pain and anger. I can get over it if I choose to but I am not wrong or weak to feel these things!<BR>FHL<BR>If you minimize your feelings do they still nag in the back of your mind? Do you think we should be feeling them to the fullest in order to exorcize them?<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited August 23, 1999).]

Though I have not read this book, the steps sound very similar to the steps Gary Smalley uses to deal with anger. The first is to allow yourself to feel the anger because God created it for a reason one of which is to warn the body to take some action to prevent it further impending damage. However, at the same time we are NOT to sin when we allow ourselves to feel the anger. I have been studying forgiveness with information from www.rbc.org along with other little booklets that can be ordered from Radio Bible Class Ministries. My Bible Sudy group was in need of this discussion even though I brought the subject to the table because I was having to deal with it concerning my W.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

I don't have the workbook - but will definitely enjoy following this thread. <P>I agree - defining the wrong as wrong has absolutely got to be the first step. How can minimizing or misplacing blame help us truly forgive? Wrong is wrong. No matter how wrong it was - it can be forgiven. Excuses would just impede total forgiveness...?????<P>Thanks WS and FHL!!!!

Found the book. Whew...<P>WS...I think my Christian schooling taught me to "hate the sin", "love the sinner" so I don't think I have a hard time calling wrong wrong while at the same time responding appropriately.<P>I think my weakness comes when I get hurt, I trivialize it to myself because I hate to be in a bad mood. But I truly don't think it shows back up often. My rule of thumb if something hurts me and I don't confront it, then I will not allow myself to hold a grudge. It doesn't seem fair to me. Maybe because I am such a conflict avoider that allows me to choose whether or not to pursue confrontation and if I choose not, to maintain my happy spirit.<P>I think I may be able to control my mind or channel my thoughts more easily than some. I don't know...maybe I am just really weird.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

hi fhl, sorry to be out of order on this discussion! Somehow I missed 1, went to 2 and now am going backwards.<BR>Is this the story of my life or what? Maybe I will remember these lessons better if I repeat them?<BR>I mentioned in ws's thread that anger is not something most people were allowed to express in puritanical america/canada. It is not socially acceptable, especially outside the family. So many ended up being anger stunted!! Gads, what a way to develop real guilt and low self esteem.<BR>I ordered the book, but may be another week before it is here! So, keep me informed and up to date?! <BR>Hey, maybe I will finally forgive my h for those last few affairs that I am harboring? I tried the blanket forgiveness without luck, so took the step by step, affair by affair path. Since there were so many, I may be forgiving til I am 50. That's okay-I guess I am in now hurry?<BR>Thanks fhl!!!<BR>

cl<BR>Didn't I tell you to get through step one first! Tsk Tsk Tsk. You know I have a Bachelor of Education and I think you were NOT paying attention!!!<BR>Accept your emotions and then go on to step two.<P>FHL<BR>I think you are just a way better person than me and that is why it is easier for you to follow through on your choices.

Kinda interesting about how how backgrounds and educational choice may also help us deal with these types of situations. <P>We practice reformed Judaism in our home and our sacred tenets are family and education in that order....honestly, we really don't read the torah frequently but we have ***tried*** to lead a good life. Where the heck is she going you say....well....I couldn't lean on spiritual healing but rather how I interpret and choose to deal with all situations.<P>Forgiveness implies a wrong....both of us did wrong things TO the marriage - not to me specifically and personally nor to him specifically and puposefully. Therefore, I didn't feel he nor I should forgive each other, rather, we should get back to basics and honor each other and the marriage. His actions have told me that he knows what he did was wrong and his youthful pride (36) gets in the way of saying aloud....I am so sorry ....... <P>If I'd been waiting for his actions to happen before forgiving him rather than simply acting, I'm not sure we'd be in the same place. He also felt very wronged and wasn't too close to forgiving me for not caring for him the way wanted to be cared for. Perhaps I wanted to "mow" over the whole thing and move on....but somehow, we managed to understand what happened which helps us safegaurd the marriage against future problems. <P>I manage by day and often look for the "best" of the worst solutions for actions. I also swallow pride for mistakes and realize the world works better with a bunch of people who act diversly.(especially the ones that don't think or act like me.)<P>less than 2cents worth - Tina<P>

hi tina, <BR>thanks for the different point of view. Interesting. I have to agree that often we act before we are sure where the other person is coming from. After all, someone has to take the first step in reconciliation or mediation. I think that getting back to basics is a form of forgiving...you simply do not carry the pain and hurt into every aspect of your relationship. <BR>I am not so sure that forgiveness comes as a package deal? For me it has been a very gradual process, as the relationship evolves.<BR>I usually am very easy with people: do not hold grudges, forgive errors quickly, move right past the issue. But dealing with the betrayals has been a whole new experience, and the forgiveness is not complete.<BR>I will keep trying! <BR>WS, i forgot how to follow directions when they added all those initials after my name...somewhere after the post grad stuff. I was a lot better off, and earned more money too. Following directions is good, and I will work harder at it. Maybe that was the lesson I missed in kindergarten?

WS...although all of your feeelings are valid, please consider that you could be just plain old wrong about me being a better person. That's a bunch of bunk. For one thing I have had pretty much a cream puff of a life. My childhood was ideal, always had good loyal friends and close family and was handed a college education on a platter.<P>My marriage, although at times more emotionally distant that I envisioned, has really been very good...and shows every sign of being better than ever now (although I am quite sure I will always have to chart the course). So far my children have been a wonderful blessing and hardly a minute of trouble. Heck, even my origional dog, almost 16 is still kisses me every day. So by the grace of God, my life has been richly blessed.<P>And in many areas of my life I am pretty pathetic. I am domestically challenged. I keep a reasonable house that always has a clean kitchen and bathrooms and clean clothes somewhere. But it is so hard for me to focus and organize what is to me the mundane. Every once in a while my H will clean the kitchen. I watch him happy organize and he usually washes by hand because he enjoys it. He is like a cleaning tornado and an organizational wizard. I am both impressed and mystified. I try and I want to want to like that kind of stuff, but it just seems out of my reach. Every morning I have to figure out how to open the vertical blinds. I just can't do it on auto pilot. Same for shutting off lights. I have to think about it over and over. And do you know how many gas caps I have lost over the years? I think H and I have somewhat came to the conclusion that these little things are as hard for me as sensitivity and emotional openness are for him. So we both have renewed efforts to work on what we are not good at, but be patient with the other at the same time.<P>I guess what I am trying to say, WS, is in many many ways you could run circles around me and I really admire that. I do believe I have been blessed with clarity of thought and much internal menatl disapline.<P>TFloyd...this book is all about that Forgiveness is more an attitude and an ongoing action rather than an event, so you are living forgiveness even if you haven't pronounced it.<P>In my faith, we have a public confession and absolution of sins right in our worship service. (No you don't verbally state your own sins...just that you have sinned in thought word and deed and need forgiveness.) We are also taught that our sins will not be forgiven if we do not forgive others. In this context it is more a matter of having a forgiving heart rather than actual formal forgiveness of a particular event. So with that type of stucture drummed into us, it may be more natural for me to say "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you"...so I think our differences are more labels than anything. Although I have to say not seeing actual remorse or hearing a truly meaningful "I'm sorry" would be difficult for me. I also went to my H with what I believed I did wrong and expressed my remorse and asked forgiveness. Although I take no blame for the action of the affair, I do take half of the accountability for the vunerability...although now that time has past my H doesn't believe I was at fault at all. He did at the time.<P>OK..now I'm rambling. I'll go on to anger...maybe we should put our step #s as part as the subject title...I'll get confused.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

morning fhl,<BR>Interesting: "I think H and I have somewhat came to the conclusion that these little things are as hard for me as sensitivity and emotional openness are for him."<BR>I think that recognizing these issues is definitely a step to improving communication! Sometimes I really have to work at validating my h's feelings about certain things-they are so different than my own. In my case it seems this had no bearing on the affairs, but sure helps the recovery! <BR>I like the concept that forgiveness comes from within one's heart, and can accept that completely. But I think I might still need to hear it...I have heard so many apologies and promises from H about all this, and he always has followed through. There are some days that I feel I need to hear it more, just to make sure. <BR>Whew, hate those insecure days too!

Step 1 for cl

The Student requested these, but everyone is welcome to revisit!

The first step is "Openly recognize wrong deeds to be wrong deeds."<P>It was wrong for my ex to degrade and humiliate me after I confessed.<P>I was either told or felt myself that it was wrong to be mad about that because--again--that was supposed to be "part of the consequences" and I'm this baaad person for wanting and expecting his forgiveness.