I don't think he wants to do it anymore. He basically said tonight that since we've had very little progress in the last two months that he doesn't know if he wants to do it (meaning work on us) anymore. I said that it wasn't fair to use the last two moths as a gage as he was still in contact with her but he said that altough he was in contact with her he was still activly working on our marriage. I feel like he wants out of our marriage but wants me to be the one to say that it is over. He still feels he should be allowed a friendship with the OW even though it is something she has said she doesn't want and I have said that it would make me very uncomfortable. I feel I deserve a marriage without the threat of a renewed relationship and talking on the phone and being friends is a threat of that. <BR>I don't know what to think-is this him or the withdrawal speaking?<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole<P>

Nicole<P>The 3 hour conversation was this with you or the OW. How can anyone be on the phone for that long???? My wife's phone messages to the OM were 2hrs at their peak and believe me my W is some talker.<P>Please let me know.<P>regards<BR>Fairenough

It's withdrawal, Nicole. Well, actually, not really withdrawal, it's the fantasy talking. He's never been out of contact, so not started real withdrawal yet.<P>If you've got it in you, all you can do is Plan A if you want to keep your marriage. Arik's got to decide what he wants to do. Maybe he'll come by here and ask for some help.<P>He's full of justifications still. And he will bait you. Hang in there, Honey. I could get rough. We've all been there, ok? You can get through it.<P>Sending prayers and hugs your way.<P>Lori

{{{{{{{{{{<B>Nicole</B>}}}}}}}}}},<P>Lori is right...<P>Fantasy World... slow/no true withdrawal...<P>I wish Arik would post some more...<BR>But neither you nor I can make him do it!<P>Hang <B>very tough</B> in Plan A...<BR>Never be the one to say "It's over"!<BR>You are really doing a <B>great</B> job!<P>Jim

I agree with the others.<P>Remember: " as long as an affair is ongoing reconciliation is hopeless"<P>" marital recovery connot begin until wthdrawl has ended"<P>"continued contact makes withdrawl longer"<P>DON"T GIVE UP YET!!!<P>like the others said it's fantacy talking.<P>As long as he talks to OW he's in the grips of the disease of infidelity.<P>Relapse doesn't start where you quit. It starts as if you never did quit. I hope that didn't bring you down too much.<P>PLAN-A, PLAN-A, PLAN-A,<P>Praying for you both,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

I'm gonna vent for you a little.<P>First he calls himself 2soulmates, declairing his love for both or you.<P>Then he "decides to work on the marriage" with "ALL his dedication" for two whole months, no less. He has not even given it that long! <P>And he changes his name!!!<P>Now he thinks he can't do it!!!!<BR>Of course not. Not with OW still in his life.<P>You are the one who has to work now. He cannot do it. He is incapable to concentrate on you and your needs as long as he is wallowing in his own self-pity at his lack of will-power to totally give up the OW. All you can do now is PLAN A, Plan A, Plan A. If worse comes to worse, you at least will know that all your actions and words toward him were given in love. <P>I am really mad at him. Wishy-washy just does not cut it in the marriage building game. <BR>grrrrrr.<P>Beth

A rational person would not consider that one could be working on the marriage while he was actively pursuing an outside relationship and lying to his marriage partner. That's just nuts. You know it. We know it. The fact your H doesn't know it shows you where his mind is. Scrambled.<P>Three hours. Whew. I can not imagine talking to my H, or anyone for that matter...but especially my H for three hours straight. You really must be good friends and he must be an unusually talkative man. My H wouldn't even listen 3 hours. Really, these long conversations must mean something.<P>Nicole, I have no personal experience with a H who wants to give up on a marriage. I know others will give you some good advice.<P>I can suggest he's tired...emotionally exhausted and his unwilingness is a product of this. I can't remember if either of you have meds yet. My H is so anti drug (he doesn't even take an aspirin unless absolutely nec.) I never took them. I would think they would be helpful for both of you, at least in the short term. But again, I'm not one to give that advise.<P>Does he have a clear vision of what he does want to do? Is he talking seperation? What does that mean to him?<P>From the little I have experienced Arik through his posts, I would guess the more you push for him to stay, he would pull to leave. If true, this puts you in a pickle.<P>Do you think you could call a time-out? I mean as anxious as you are to work things out. It is not going to happen until he goes through withdrawl anyway. And in his state of mind it would be impossible to change his thinking (not that we won't try if he posts). Maybe you could both benefit from just not talking about it for a period of time. Just coexisting.<P>Does it look like he can get time off? It is probibily pointless to make him promise no contact...OW probibly holds the key and for now at least, she seems to be playing into your hand. In fact, it may be beneficial for your H to push the issue with her and let her get nasty. It just might burst his bubble.<P>The next few weeks will be horrible. But remember there is lots of hope!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Grrrrr!<P>Everybody is right...it's the fantasy talking. The only taste of withdrawal he got was when she went on vacation for three weeks.<P>Hang in there and Plan A till you can't bear it anymore. He's confused and not in his right mind. <P>Like I said before..don't forget to take care of you and your kids. I know how overwhelmed you must feel right now so do nice things for yourself. I used to buy myself a little bunch of flowers at the grocery store every chance I had. Just looking at the colors made me feel better. <P>Keeping you in my prayers....Jodi

As hard as it is, if he wants out, let him out. Stay Plan A as long as you can manage it. It was fortunate for me that I never knew he was seeing the OW, he always said he wasn't (ok, the lying wasn't so fortunate...) but it enabled me to do Plan A. It turned out he couldn't give me up either. Although he has put me through hell.<P>But I decided I wanted my marriage, that was my goal and I would not do anything that did not lead to that goal (I've messed up repeatedly, but at least my mind has been clear most of the time).<P>Decide what you want. Then let him go. The OW has some flaws--if she didn't she wouldn't be with a married man.<P>God bless.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

Nicole, He wants to quit? Fine, let him quit. That doesn't mean you have to. His efforts have all been in vain anyway, since he doesn't understand the MB concepts. (Hasn't removed himself from contact with her, LB on you all the time, waffles as to who he wants, etc.)<P>He isn't in a place to do any of the Plan A stuff. So let him be where he is for a while, take good care of yourself, and Plan A him whenever you have opportunity.<P>I have posted elsewhere about Love Must Be Tough. I don't think it is incompatible with MB. Open his cage door and let him know that you will always love him, but need to look after yourself. Tell him you have no desire to be his jailer. <P>When I said that to my h., he just grinned from ear to ear. I said "There is the door. I don't want to beg you to love me anymore, so let me know what you decide." <P>The self-respect you demonstrate to him will increase his love for you. (in fact, I was quaking in my sox when I 'opened the cage door', but saying the words seemed to free me, too.)<P>Recently, I reminded my h. that we decide to stay married every day. Every day we choose to love or give up. Marriage is not meant to be a jail or a cage. Opening the cage door and letting go of the death grip I had on my h's. neck is the hardest, best thing I have ever done for our relationship.<P>blessing, Liz\His Pearl of Great Price<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Nicole:<P>I'm going to take a different tack with you here than the others have:<P>You've got to remember that these things don't happen overnight. Time will heal this wound, but you can't expect Arik to change his mind overnight. My wife didn't change HER mind overnight and she wasn't in HALF as deep is Arik is.<P><B>Keep this in mind:</B><P>The whole REASON for Plan A is to replenish your love deposits in Arik's lovebank. Nobody said that he'd make that easy on you. Of course he's conflicted right now. He's being faced with having someone OTHER than himself (OW) make the decision to end the affair. He's afraid of losing that fantasy, and, more importantly, you don't have a very high account in his love bank right now.<P>What you need to do is continue to avoid lovebusters. Be as understanding as you can. I know it's hard. Don't push him and don't set ultimatums because he probably won't respond to them. Rather, he'll use them as an excuse to "get out" of the marriage.<P>Your job now is to start giving him all the things that he had found in OW. That's not easy to do when we are so full of anger and resentment and hurt and betrayal. The last thing we want to do in that situation is GIVE more to the person responsible for hurting us.<P>However, that is PRECISELY what you must do. Arik is at home, NOT with OW. Use Plan A until you can't stand it anymore. If he hasn't come around by then, move to Plan B. That is designed to SHOCK him into seeing what he's throwing away.<P>Really, you need to go back and read Dr. Harley's book and this website to learn how to effectively use the two plans.<P>For now, though, just remember that it's only been a few weeks since Arik confessed here that he was going to try to work on the marriage. Expect some ambivalence and try not to get too panicked when he has "downswings."<P>This WILL get easier with time, especially when he clears the hurdle of continuing contact with OW. If she doesn't want to see him anymore, then he better get used to it. She could have him arrested for stalking if he doesn't leave her alone.<P>You, in the meantime, need to be loving and patient and supportive. You'll both be glad in six months that you did this. I know.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Ok...<BR>cover your ears...<BR>YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!<BR>(much wailing and gnashing of teeth)<BR>Sorry, I just had to get that out. On one had I understand what Lonestar is trying to say, but on the other hand, to hear him pule about how the marriage is not changing or getting better when he is still pursuing contact with OW- EVEN THOUGH SHE HAS REQUESTED NO CONTACT!!!!<BR>YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!<BR>(more wailing and gnashing of teeth)<BR>From what is visible here, (I am trembling with anger and frustration) Arik is not making a serious effort. So I kind of have to sidle up to POPG and back her view of things.<BR>He has not shown any true commitment that I have been aware of. I thought, for a while that his posts had promise, but then again maybe not.<BR>I don't deny that he is probably very confused and f**ked up, but nonetheless, he must realize how many peoples lives he is bringing trauma to by his actions.<BR>I know we are not supposed to be judgemental, here, dam that is HARD sometimes.<BR>I won't deny that he probably does love you as much as he says he does, but he must open up his eyes and realize that he is not acting it. That's the bottom line.<BR>As for improving the marriage...<BR>YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!<BR>(even more wailing and gnashing of teeth)<BR>I don't want to give you bad advice, and I'm a little too emotional now to be thinking clearly, so take this for what it is worth...<BR>Go to plan B. <BR>I'm not denying that the betrayed must put a lot of effort into marriage recovery from this kind of thing, BUT YOU CAN'T DO IT ALONE!!!! And despite whatever he has said or posted, it seems plain to me that he has not committed himself to rebuilding your marriage. <BR>Maybe it's a tough love thing, maybe it's a 'commanding some self respect' thing, but I don't think that being willing to rebuild a marriage includes you being a doormat.<BR>If he were put out, and given a chance to face the consequences of what he has (and continues to do) maybe he would cease his selfish puling and come to his senses, whatever that means. <BR>Hoping I don't get TOO flamed to this post,<BR>Deut<P>ps.. YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!<BR>(lots more wailing and gnashing of teeth as I scroll down and press...)

BTW...<BR>I have got a bit of a grip here, and would like to actually respond to your post a bit more, um, rationally...<BR>you wrote:<P>>>>He basically said tonight that since we've had very little progress in the last two months that he doesn't know if he wants to do it (meaning work on us) anymore.<<<<P>I have yet to see any evidence of him truly working on anything yet besides indulging his own wildly fluctuating emotional state.<BR>HE has had very little progress. YOU, on the other hand, have been a model for many of us here. Dylan said that if I had had a more 'serious' affair, that she hopes she could have been as strong as you. <P>>>>he said that altough he was in contact with her he was still activly working on our marriage.<<<<P>How tru is this, really? IMHO, working on a marriage, especially after something like this requires TRUE and UNWAVERING commitment. How can he say he has been working on you marriage when he has been pursuing contact with OW (I'm not talking about his job here)?<BR>(I would love to hear his reply to this, even if he doesn't actually 'hear' what I'm saying and flames the heck out of me)<P>>>>I feel like he wants out of our marriage but wants me to be the one to say that it is over.<<< <P>I went through this myself, and beleive that it is very possible. Having failed at my first marriage, I couldn't end my second even though I was pretty unhappy. When Dylan showed me she was willing to work on our marriage despite what I'd done, my attitude flipped 180 degrees. <P>>>>He still feels he should be allowed a friendship with the OW even though it is something she has said she doesn't want and I have said that it would make me very uncomfortable.<<<<P>He is obviously not thinking very clearly. I too felt that way (at first, before even telling Dylan about affair) but truly, in my inner heart, I knew it was a crock of s**t, and when I committed myself I gained a certain clarity. <BR>It should NOT be a question of 'being allowed'. We live in a relatively free country here. It's a question of him doing what he knows is right, without having to be given an ultimatum.<P>>>>I feel I deserve a marriage without the threat of a renewed relationship and talking on the phone and being friends is a threat of that.<<<<P>Not only is it a threat, but it represents a blatant disrespect to you (and also OW based on my understanding of what she has said) and shows a true and profound lack of commitment. <P>>>>I don't know what to think-is this him or the withdrawal speaking?<<<<P>That's a good question, one I can't answer. I think it boils down to the commitment think. I can understand the withdrawal thing, even if I was spared from those feeling. I don't know what to say about this except that if he isn't willing to face those feelings and deal with them to save your marriage, how the hell are you supposed to know what to think?<P>There, I think I'm done now.<P>Deut.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Soulloss' exH (edited December 03, 1999).]

OK...I'll take a strike for the moderate view here.<P>Everyone is right that you can't "make" him do anything and I think we all pretty much agree he isn't even capable of much in the short term.<P>Now in regards to him staying at home (if we are understanding the issue) I think you can do "tough love" and plan A at the same time here...and I think because of the dynamics of the situation, it could work for you.<P>If I were in your shoes, I would be tempted to influence him into staying because of how much it would upset the kids if he left (would it?) I think you need to balance that (and it is a biggie) with the knowledge you can not "make" him stay anyway and that he may be less apt to leave if he feel he can and he may be more likely to really work on the marriage if he feels he is doing out of his own free will. Only you can probibly judge these things maybe a long with a very very good counselor. Do you have one?<P>I believe you will always be better off he if he sees you as strong rather than weak. He doesn't currently have the ability to be compassionate to act out of consideration to you, anyway.<P>Since his OW in nowhere nearby and even working on her own marriage, if he did leave, he wouldn't go to her, right?<P>Now I have a slightly different opinion of the needs thing. If you know of a problem in the marriage that you can work on fixing by yourself...hey, absolutely, have at it. I really don't agree that you need to try to fill all those needs OW did because the OW was almost a total phone fantasy...so for the most part...unless you can really be wonder woman, I wouldn't beat yourself up trying to compare yourself to her and try to out do her. Plus left alone I think her fantasy will start to self destruct if your H keeps trying to pursue and she keeps rebuffing. <P>Of course you can be kind, be loving, be patient, be supportive...and of course NOT be love bustery...all while being strong and resolved.<P>Make your home a safe place for him, but make it clear it is not his prison. One caution, however, if he does move out, don't let him negate his responsibility to your family. Don't feel you have to financially support his escape. Let him figure out how to handle that on his own.<P>I wouldn't push ultimatums either at this point, and since physical involvement with OW is unlikely, there isn't too much new to experience than you haven't already anyway. I wouldn't even push for honesty for the short term. Any demand at this point is setting yourself up for failure. I would just let him "be" for a while.<P>Nicole, nothing is easy, but if you set a goal in your mind and do everything to achieve that goal and nothing (as much as you are able) that works against the goal, then you are on the right path.<P>You feel what you feel...but you can control your words and your actions.<P>Make good decisions. Be consistant and resolved. Listen listen listen...and resist the urge to "fix" things. Don't push...but be strong. Be kind...but not clingy. Be loving...but not needy. Be supportive...but don't expect support. Be patient...and expect impatience in return.<P>This too shall pass.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Soul ExH, It doesn't do Nicole any good to tell her what Arik should be doing and that he should be commited. She can't control that.<P>All she can control is herself and how she reacts or is proactive for the relationship. Not all betrayers turn around in a week, month, or even a year, as my situation reflects...Perhaps 18 months of Plan A was too long (but then I didn't always do it so well). <P>I say firmly that you can do Plan A without being a doormat, it is just difficult to find the line.