Hello, All...<P>I'm still here.<P>I appreciate all of the advice on my previous post (March 16th, I think) when I mentioned that I had decided NOT to reveal my affair to my husband.<P>I haven't posted in a while because I'm just tired. I'm tired of hashing all of this out right now. I'm tired of thinking about this right now. Does that make sense? Probably not. I just felt this need to back-off for a while. <P>Update:<P>When my husband left to go on his trip, I missed him terribly. I feel that during that time period, my love for him was renewed. But, despite the fact that I love him, I feel that my marriage has been dead for many years. Even if I had never had an affair, my marriage would still be in terrible danger of failing -- that's what scares me the most. I don't want to fail anymore than I already have...<P>Here's how my marriage is right now:<P>My husband doesn't listen. When he doesn't listen, I become angry and frustrated. So, when I become angry and frustrated, I stay away from him to avoid getting MORE angry and frustrated. He stays away from me because I'm angry and frustrated (anyone see a cycle here?) <P>My husband wants sex. I could care less about sex right now. Yes, I realize that this is an important need for my husband. Yes, I realize that I'm a dork for not being able to meet that need for him right now.<P>I love my husband. My husband says he loves me. If those statements are true, then why are we both so incredibly MISERABLE???<P>Yes, it's important to me to save my marriage.<P>So, enough about me.<P>The support and feedback on this forum are PHENOMENAL...THANKS.<P>I miss Keosha.<P>I miss [censored].<P>[censored]...WHERE ARE YOU???<P>Jill<P>

Jill,<P>We understand that there are times we nned to leave the forum...<BR>...I was kind of force to do this a month ago when I was in the hospital for my emergency apendectomy.<P>Don't worry about that time...<BR>Take as much as you need... <BR>Just do come back!<P>Ok... about your post.<P>It sounds like to me you are in the third phase of marriages (as the Harley's say)... the phase of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Withdrawal</A>.<P>You need to get rid of the <B>Miserableness</B>!<P>Do check out <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage</A>. You've seem to move from <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3605_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Intimacy</A> and bypassed <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3610_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Conflict</A>... and jumped head long into <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Withdrawal</A>. You most definitely need to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Lead your relationship back to Intimacy</A>.<P>Do check out the above links...<P>You'll also want to start considering <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>. This can get the ball rolling... The real key word here is "enthusiastically" doing the POJA!<P>Of course... do <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... your heart out... Meeting H's <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>... is a big step too...<BR>...are you using any ideas from the book <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440207533" TARGET=_blank><B>Light His Fire </B>: How to Keep Your Man Passionately and Hopelessly in Love</A> by Ellen Kreidman?<P>You sound like you really want to get ready to work in your marriage. Don't let apathy kick in... Let us all give you push... Keep posting so we can nudge you in a non-<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busting</A> way... <P>Jim<P>

Hi Jill!<P>Good to see you survived the advice . Want some more? Why don't you tell your H just what you told us. Lay it on the table for him. You are afraid of losing the marriage and you think that both of you need to change a few things.<P>Explain how you feel about his needs and about your needs. Tell him straight up. Don't sugar coat it and don't LB either. <P>He knows there are problems but he doesn't know how serious. Does he know how you felt about him while he was gone? Does he know how turned off you feel now?<P> Don't you hate it when people give you unsolicited advice. Yeah, I know. But you know that talking honestly with your H about these issues may help. I doubt that his mind reading skills surpass mine and I don't have any.<P>God Bless You Jill,<P>JL

Jill<P>What are you trying to tell him that he's not hearing?<P>I used to think this. The problem was I chose these really inopportune times to talk to him. (like in the middle of the superbowl. Yep call me classic. It's the last 30 seconds of the game and the score is tied. The balls less than 10 yards from the goal line, and I announce honey we need to talk now. Ha Ha Ha!)<P>The other thing I used to do is tell him something looking for a bit of sympathy or reassurance. He'd offer a solution. I'd get ticked because that's not what I needed and I already had a solution so I'd tell him again. Only this time in a more annoyed voice. He'd then get ticked off because I was repeating what I just said, and I was yelling at him, and well you get the idea.<P>I try now to think about what exactly it is I'm trying to accomplish with the conversation, and then before getting into it, I tell my husband what I want. For instance if I'm looking for reassurance I tell him that I have some things to talk to him about,and I want for him to reassure me it's going to be all right. If I want a solution I tell him I'm looking for ideas. <P>If I need him to bring in the groceries...Well the first thing I have to do is realize it isn't really a need, but a want. Then I try the old persuasion method. (Ok I used to try the Coercion method...)

Jill,<P> To tell or not to tell, I think in your case we caould debate this for sometime. I'm not going to go there and I'm not going to judge you for your choice. What I do want to do is tell you about my experience and you can take it for whatever it is worth.<P> I've been married for almost 18 years. I have been wrapped up in work, bills getting ahead all the BS of life. I was doing a terrible job of being a husband. As expected the wife and I drifted apart. We always loved each other. Their has always been a very deep devotion to each other EVEN DURING THE AFFAIR! My wife tried every trick she could think of to get me to wake up. Just before her emotional affair (even the OM didn't really know her feelings) became a sexual affair she came to me. She wanted to give me one last chance, she wanted me to save her, she wanted to at least get some form of acknowledgment from me that she did exist. She came to me and her exact words were.<P>"Why is it that other men notice me and give me compliements but I you don't give me any".<P>Today this would be a 5 alarm fire. I would stop everything. I would do anything and everything to talk, to understand, to show her how much I do love her. What did I do, how did I handle this. I handled it exactly like all the other times she was talking about leaving, --- I made a mental note to try harder and DIDN'T SAY ONE WORD.<P>STUPID STUPID STUPID<P>Needless to say, she went to him to punish herself for her failures. This has made it easier to recover from but WHY DID IT HAVE TO HAPPEN ?????<P>Before the affair she would talk, she would theathen to leave but they were only words. Her actions didn't work. Cutting off sex didn't work. She tried everything !!!!!<P>It was finding out about the affair that was the only force had got me to stand and pay attention. There is nothing bigger you can find to hit your husband upside the head and try and get him to work on you marriage.<P>How are things today , <P>WONDERFUL [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]:<BR> [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]:<P>We still have a long way to go, we still have area to work on. I have rediscovered this beautiful lady I married years ago. I have that she is so much better then I can ever remember. She is my love, She is my wife, she is EVERYTHING to me. I have become so wrapped up in her that I have given up on ouw marriage and have started having an affair. I am now happier then I ever dreamed possible with this lady. Having this affair was the best thing I ever did. I do have some bad days still. I still can really hit bottom hard sometimes, BUT IF HAVE THIS JOY MEANS HITTING BOTTOM LIKE I DO I'LL HIT IT ALL DAY LONG.<P> It took the affair to wake me up, It took the REAL and HONEST threat of losing her to wake me up. She has worked to help me. I have put out a lot of effort to learn. NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF IT WASN'T FOR THE OM. I really HATE to admit it but no one has ever done so much for me in my entire life as the SOB!!!!!!<P>Think about it and take your time thinking<P>Good Luck<BR>Joe

Hi Jill--<BR> No advice (JL and Getting Better have covered everything I could think of). Just wanted to say Hi, and that it is good to hear from you. <BR> And, maybe a word of encouragement...you CAN progress from where you both are to a really good place (at least, I really think it is possible...we seem to be getting there). Looking back, I now wonder why we always assume that if both parties love each other they should be happy...it is really two different issues, isn't it?<BR> Anyway, glad to see you are still around. <BR>Hugs--<BR>Kathi

Jill, <P>I am very sorry that you are still having trouble being intimate with your husband. My understanding about human nature is that a secret like the one you have is a huge barrier to intimacy. Contrary to what many women believe, sex is not purely physical for men, it is the ultimate expression of intimacy. Your husband knows that you and he are not intimate, so he may be wanting to experience sexual intimacy with you because it is all that is left. <P>My perception of you is that you are a very open, expressive person normally. But this secret prevents you from doing that and thinking of yourself as an open person. Without the intimacy with your husband, you are not able to make love to him. This is a true tragedy. It really sounds like you want to be intimate with your husband, but with this secret you will be unable to make love to him without feeling like a liar and a cheat. <P>Jill, in reading your posts, the ones where you talk about keeping the secret sound very angry and selfish. But the ones when you talked about revealing it sound like you have a peace in you. Perhaps you should re-think your decision to keep this from your husband. It sounds like this is going to affect your marriage anyway, and with it concealed, your husband is unable to deal with it, but if it is revealed he will at least know some of the reason for your reaction to him. <P>Think it over. I still suggest that you get your minister together with Steve Harley and the three of you decide on a course of action. <P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, <BR>John

Jill,<P>Just one more thing. In one of your posts, you state that your husband gave you a really nice compliment to someone else and you knew that you were not "worthy". <P>I could be completely wrong, but I really think that this is how you are going to feel from now on until you reveal your affair. There may be some people who could keep this secret forever, but I just don't see you as one of them. <P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You,<BR>John

Jill,<P>Ditto to John's last reply.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Hi.<P>As usual, I appreciate the advice.<P>Let me clarify something...my inability to have sex with my husband seems to be a real issue for everyone here. Most of you seem to think that I can't have sex with him because I'm keeping a secret. Well, how about this piece of information: My husband and I have had trouble in the bedroom for YEARS...LONG before I ever even thought of cheating. I would say that by our second year of marriage, we were only having sex once a month. Even then, I only gave in because I felt guilty. <P>Someone also asked me what it is that I want my husband to listen to. Well, the answer would be, "TO ANYTHING!!" LOL No, I'm not dumb enough to attempt to talk to my husband when he's studying or working on something or watching a sporting event. I DO try to talk to my husband when we're alone together in the car. I do try to talk to my husband when we are falling asleep at night. I do try to talk to my husband when/if we go out to dinner. I can talk and ask questions for him to respond to...do you know what he says? NOTHING (literally). I don't mean that he responds and doesn't say what I want to hear. I mean that he says NOTHING. It's as if I never asked him a question or said anything. You've heard the old saying, "Talking to so and so is like talking to a brick wall..." Well, in my husband's case, the old saying has come to life. I feel that I'm a decent communicator. I do not often "mince" my words. If I need help with bringing in the groceries, then I say so. If I need this or that, I say so. I don't expect my husband to be a mind reader. It's so humiliating to be consistently ignored.<P>Getting Better: Before AND after my affair, I said to my husband, "Why is it that other men notice me and compliment me, but you don't ever have anything positive to say about my heart or about my appearance?" I said that NUMEROUS times. Really, this is the man who's supposed to love me more than anything, yet, I'm invisible.<P>Yes, revealing my affair to my husband would make me highly visible, but I don't need THAT kind of attention right now.<P>I'm still working through all of that...<P>I'm still lonely.<P>I'm tired.<P>Jill<P>

Jill,<P> Let me reintroduce myself. I am your husbands twin. My wife would have a problem and try and talk to me and <P>do you know what I would say? NOTHING (literally). <P>As a matter of fact does you husband look like a little puppy that just got hit. Or maybe he like to look at the floor while being yelled at.<P> Jill, I understand this frame of mind. Today I don't do it any more. I have gotten pretty good at sticking my feet in my mouth (yes both of them), but the wife wants emotion, she gets it. It it is the same answer as usual she gets. I now try to always add in my my feelings.<P> It took my wife's affair to get me to open up. To take the BIG CHANCE to express my feelings. To your husband it is a big chance to express his feelings. I'll beat he loves you so much he does want to hurt you.<P> I was also raised that the man is to take care of the family. If there is a problem the man is to fix it. WELL BESIDES BEING A HUGE PILE OF BS THE OTHER THING THIS MINDSET DOES IS TO TEACH YOU HEAR THE PROBLEM AND THEN I WOULD GO OFF AND TRY AND FIX IT. When my wife told me about other men, I would make this mental note (can't think of what esle to call it) that I have to try harder. My wife NEVER knew how much I really did love her. She NEVER knew how much those words really hurt. How could she know or understand what I was doing or how I was doing things I NEVER TOLD HER ANYTHING.<P> Jill, this really hit home. I could see myself in what you said. How do you attack this problem is a good question. My wife finally figured it out, SHE GAVE UP ON ME, HAD AN AFFAIR AND THEN TOLD ME. None of which was intentional but the was basicly it. It was the affair that became the big enough baseball bat to hit me with.<P> Another point and I really feel stupid admitting this but I want to help you (and I'm sure glad you don't know me). As I started to open up and start to talk to her and this was only so very little. I told once that I disagree with something very little (I mean really trivial!!!). After my comment she got quite and let my mind run. I was in the Oh, my God mode , I never should have said thing. This is stupid I can live with this, it is not a big deal. I was going and justifing why I should have keep my mouth shut. After a few minutes she came to me with this wonderful warm touch and in a sof voice said "Now what is the problem, you have your opinion, I have mine. It doesn't bother me. I wanted to know how you felt." It was like magic and it still is to this very day. In those few minutes she showed me by example that we can disagree and that it is alright. Don't get me wrong we have had some really big fights in the pass, Pop cans, ashtrays and any only form of throwable object has gone sailing. We are not saints but I never knew how to communciate, I did have a deep love and devotion to my wife, I just did know how to do something like this.<P> Well now that I feel like a complete idiot and fool I hope this does help you in understanding you husband some.<P>Joe

Jill,<BR>Whether you tell your husband or not about the affair is and always will be your decision. I have my opinion, and have voiced it on your other thread, but as for what you are experiencing now....I will leave the divulsion of the affair alone.<P>I think there are alot of men out there who don't talk. My husband is one of them. He says nothing, and this nothingness has in the past tended to infuriate me as well. I wouldn't care if he was screaming at me as long as he was talking. I too felt ignored. I have written in a journal about being invisible. (Of course this feeling of invisibleness is nothing new to me. I often felt invisible growing up, and wondered why if I was being good and doing all the right things noone noticed, but if my siblings went out and broke the law everyone noticed. It didn't seem right to me.) There isn't really a clear answer here. It would be nice if we could magically wave a wand over our husbands heads that clued them in that what we need is for them to talk to us. Say anything. Recognize we exist. The thing is I've come to realize that I was attracted to this tight lipped, quiet, hermit like fellow for a reason. I also unconsciously contributed to his quietness. I don't mince words either. I have always told him...I just tell him things in the wrong way.<P>I don't know if this is your case or not, but with me my attempts to get him to open up usually started fairly mellow, but It ended up with either some kind of disrespectful judgement or an angry outburst on my part to get him to do the same. Really my intention was to have a calm discussion with him about life in general, but he had learned through the way loved ones had responded to him (Including myself) that voicing an opinion would often end up making him feel like he was no good, or his opinion was wrong. He had learned not to talk, and so In my frustration, I gave up the idea of a rational discussion and instead would settle for any discussion. Even if it meant a verbal battle between us. There was a sense of satisfaction I felt after a fight (although mixed in with guilt for causing it to come to that, and other negative emotions pertaining to things he said) He felt deflated though, and retreated farther back into his shell.<P>What I am saying I believe wholeheartedly. You are not going to get him to open up to you by wishing it to be so. You have to change your approach, and that act will eventually domino into his being able to open up. Men don't communicate for the same reasons we do. At some point it will be beneficial for both of you to understand that primary difference, but for right now it is within your power to plant the seeds to get both of you out of withdrawal. (The communication type.)<P>It starts simple...<P>Instead of asking how come you don't notice... try I'd like you to notice...it makes me feel good. Negatives in conversation often set the reciever up to be put on the defensive. I say this like it's so easy, and I realize it's not. It took me along time and alot of practice to get to this point, and I'm far from perfect. Boy I've seen the results though.

reposted from [censored]'s thread<BR>- - - - - ---- -- - -- ---- <BR>Jill,<P>Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Let me apologize in advance for being presumptuous. Please take this all with a grain of salt...<P>It sounds like you and your husband are caught in a vicious circle. He is cool to you so you don't feel sexually attracted to him. Your lack of sexual attraction to him hurts his feelings so he acts cool to you. It sounds like a stalemate - nobody wants to go first meeting the other person's needs.<P>Many men (myself included) equate fulfillment of sexual needs with love - as your H he is counting on you to take care of this need. I guess it is a Mars/Venus thing - women tend to make a face when they hear it discussed so bluntly. Men and women just think differently about this. That doesn't make his or your thinking wrong, just different.<P>To break this cycle, somebody has to sacrifice something. He has to sacrifice his hurt feelings and treat you right, or you have to sacrifice the need to have him treat you right before having sex with him. Not that it should be this way always - <B>it definitely shouldn't</B>. But would one of you be willing to make the sacrifice for the sake of the healing that might come from it?<P>Whoever has to give in first will have to do so knowing that it doesn't seem right, feel right, feels forced, etc. And of course there is no guarantee that this will improve things. But isn't it worth the try?<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

This is a bit funny to me....<P>I just realized that I told you the avoid the lovebuster's end of things, and right behind me 2sad4words gives you the meet his most important emotional needs end. <P>Boy are we good scholars or what? <P>Or what's more like it....lol ...<P>Anyway hope some this helps...