Please critique my words in this discussion with my wife.<P>I say: I think we owe it to our children to give this marriage every last possibility to be repaired. Even if it seems impossible.<P>She says: I can't. I am past the point of trying with you. For eleven years I tried to get you to be the husband and father that you should have been and I couldn't get you to do it.<P>I say: I can't change the past. And it's not that you can't work on the marriage, you won't work on the marriage. You are refusing and you are going to destroy the lives of our kids.<P>She says: Well, you should have thought about that a long time ago.<P>I say: I'm not the one who's insisting on destroying the family. I don't want us to separate. I love you and I want this family to survive.<P>She says: You don't understand. I can't. I am past the point of trying.<P>I say: No, it's not that you can't. You won't.<P><BR>And 'round and 'round we go.

All wrong. You're both hurling blame back and forth at each other. She'll stay on the defensive that way...as will you. Someone has to break the cycle.<P>Buy "We Can Work It Out--How to Solve Conflicts, Save Your Marriage, and Strengthen Your Love for Each Other," by Clifford Notarius and Howard Markman. Lots of communication techniques explained. Read everything here. Post, post, post.<P>Quick pointer. Don't speak for her. Express your feelings and throw in as many positive statements as you can about her. Don't talk for both of you either.<p>[This message has been edited by Lucks (edited March 26, 2000).]

Hmmm, well I'm not totally familiar with your story, but my H says almost the same thing. He says that he knows that the marriage could work, but he does not have the desire to try. <P>It does sound like you guys are having a blame game just from face value. But I don't think that is your intentions. You may want to try to stay away from saying what the other is doing or thinking because in reality you really don't know. I think your "I want" and "I feel" statements" are good. You can only spesk for you and vice versa. neither of you can speak for one another. Sometimes they don't say what we want them to hear, but at least she's communicating how she feels. <P>And no matter how much i wish my H and your W would gain their "desire to try" back, we can't force them to feel what they don't. All we can do is our part. So keep on doing what you are doing. It does seem as if you are communicating. And like I said, its not what you always want to hear, but we have to respect their feelings even if it doesn't make any sense to us. <P>Wow am I talking to you or me here,lol. Well I hope this helps some.<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

I think what your wife is trying to tell you is that she is exhausted. She seems to be saying that she has tried to communicate to you what she needs as a husband and a father but has not seen any effort in these areas on your part. This in turn has caused her to become frustrated to the point of wanting to give up. She seems to feel that the amount of work is not worth the return.<P>I don't know the details of your story or even if your wife has a reason to feel that you did not deliver on her requests - or if she even communicated them in a way that you understood. When people have affairs, reality gets distorted. Only you can decide if this rings true for you.<P>So from her eyes, she may feel that you are blaming her for ending the marriage and is probably enraged by that because she feels you ignored her earlier attempts to put the marriage back on tract. She may feel that she is the one who tried to no avail to save the marriage.<P>If your conversations go around and around like this, then I suggest you write her a letter to let her know how you feel. This lets you express yourself in a loving way without being confrontational. <BR>And it also makes you more accountable which may make your wife feel a little better about it (Since she feels that you have not acknowledged her past requests)<P>Own up to whatever you think you need to and ask her for a second chance. Setting a time limit may make her feel more comfortable with the idea. She may see it as a compromise. You are acknowledging the level of her frustration by not asking her to work on this forever but you are asking her to give it one last shot. Tell her where you think you have failed her and how you will work to change it.<P>Hope this helps.<P>Acacia<P>

Back with more time to post.<P>Critique:<P>You said: I think we owe it to our children to give this marriage every last possibility to be repaired. Even if it seems impossible.<BR>Could have said: I think we owe it to our family to work on our relationship. I hope it doesn't seem impossible.<P>She says: I can't. I am past the point of trying with you. For eleven years I tried to get you to be the husband and father that you should have been and I couldn't get you to do it.<P>I say: I can't change the past. And it's not that you can't work on the marriage, you won't work on the marriage. You are refusing and you are going to destroy the lives of our kids.<BR>Could have said: I feel your frustration. I'm sorry it's been so hard for you. I can't change the past but I will be there for you now. Tell me what you need.<P>She says: Well, you should have thought about that a long time ago.<P>I say: I'm not the one who's insisting on destroying the family. I don't want us to separate. I love you and I want this family to survive.<BR>Could have said: You're right, I should have. Honey, I love you. I don't want to separate. Can we try to work things out? I'm listening.<P>She says: You don't understand. I can't. I am past the point of trying.<P>I say: No, it's not that you can't. You won't.<BR>Could have said: Tell me so I CAN understand. I want to. You and the kids are the most important people in my life.<P>She's still talking. It's a good sign. Keep her talking by not shutting her down. Those points that seem sooooo important to make in the middle of the conversation can wait, or are not necessary at all. <P>Advice someone else gave to me: "Choose your battles carefully." <P>The more you validate hearing what she says, the more comfortable she will feel confiding in you. If she's trying to tell you what she feels is wrong, and then you just toss it back at her as her fault, the more frustrated she will become. <P>Women have a very difficult time responding to a man's logical way of speaking while they're in emotional crisis. Be patient, help her by really listening until she is calm. Only then can she hear you.

Words are meaningless if things have gotten this bad so the bottom line is this<P>Actions speak louder then words.<P>SHOW HER YOU MEAN IT !!!!<P>

I agree with Getting Better actions are louder than words. I don't know how many times I heard my H say something and then either not do it or act like the total opposite. Keep trying to talk to her and make sure you don't place blame on her. Tell her you love her as often as possible and then back it up and show her. Spontaneous signs of affection are always a good thing.<P>GOOD LUCK

You've gotten some good advise.<P>Be very very careful of starting a sentence with you. If you do, stop yourself and finish it with something positive.<P>One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. This may be what you are doing in this repeated conversation. It has not become almost a dance between the two of you and it will be up to you to break the cycle.<P>For the short term you may have to plain old give up on trying to convince her to work on the marriage.<P>Try co-existing until she starts responding to your actions.<P>No matter how smart she is, you will not be able to convince her of anything.<P>Replace any you statements with I statements. I think, I feel, I will, I am.<P>Never tell her what she thinks or label her words and actions...even if they are as irrational or wrong as they can be.<P>You can gently disagree, but with an I statement, never with a disrespectful judgement or a you statement.<P>Another good communication book is Fighting for Your Marriage.<P>Oh....and this may be a great book for you. My H and I read it together. It was tough and depressing at times, but enlightening. It is called What If I Married the Wrong Person? Actually this may be a good book to leave out where she can see it (away from your son if he reads). I am sure she couldn't resist picking it up with the title.<P>It talks about how we look at negatives instead of positives, how we misinterpret and miscommunicate...and on and on. It even addresses that maybe we didn't make the best choice, but there is no real way to know and how to make the marriage better.<P>As you do read and learn, you may try going to her and admitting a fault or weakness or misinterpretation that you figured out and address specifically how you are going to change...and do it.<P>I remember shortly after discovery my H snapped at me once (quite rare) and said not to tell him how he felt. Wow, it stopped me in my tracks. I said "I do that? I'm sorry, I will never do that again. I guess when you don't say much, I tend to try to figure out how you feel, but it's unfair to tell you. If I slip up, please tell me." Once a few months later I caught myself and immediately apologized. <P>If she does bring this conversation up...do what luck said.<P>Your theme could be:<BR>I love you. I love our family. I am committed to honoring you and our marriage by growing and changing. I believe that in time we can work this out.<P>If she sputters and starts the broken record say. I am willing to listen to how I hurt you, disappointed you and let you down in the past. I wish I could change the past, but I can not. I can pledge to make the future better. I know you tried and tried and now you are tired of trying. I know that you feel you can not try anymore. Just rest for now. Let me spend time learning and growing and working on my role in our relationship. For whatever reason, God gave you to me and me to you. Even though I blundered in the past, I am going to honor our marriage in the future.<P>On our anniversary, 8 months post discovery, I said something like we are lucky we made it. He said something about there was never a doubt we would make it, but I remember being momentarily irritated and saying "Well, you are lucky I didn't throw you out!" I'll never forget how he stopped and quietly but said with strength. "I would have never left. Maybe if you were upset and told me to leave I would have left for a day or so to let you calm down, but I would have never left you or our family. Our life is too important to me. Even though I was wrong, I would have stayed."<P>That really stuck with me. <P>Expect nothing but rejection and hostility. Let it roll off your back, but try to acknowledge it so she knows she is getting through. Something like it sounds like you are really angry or frustrated or tired (pick one) today. And if she starts in on you and you are in front of the kids say "I really would like to listen to everything you'd like to say. Can we schedule a private time later when we won't be interupted?" If she still wants to pick a fight just refuse to argue or convince. Say something like "I know you are really angry. Usually now I start to try to defend myself or convince you of something. If there is anything else you'd like to say, I'd like to listen...but I know I'm tired of arguing, so how about we play with the kids, sit down and have dinner, watch TV, read a book (pick something) for now?<P>Anything to break the cycle. Anything that would signify real change. Anything that is respectful rather than disrespectful to her.<P>If you stop the dance, break the cycle, it will create change. She doesn't have to commit to the marriage right now for you to work on it. It would be nice, of course, but its not going to happen.<P>The spin on thhis is that you can focus on working on yourself at your own pace. It doesn't matter what she does or doesn't do, you can keep moving forward.<P>I hope some of this helps. And remember...don't start a sentence with YOU! <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hopefull, you are NOT validating ANYTHING that she says to you. Instead of LISTENING, and I mean truly listening, you are thinking of your comeback answer. As soon as she say's how she feels and has felt, you are saying that she is WRONG to feel that way because that was the past. Yes, you are correct it is the past. But for years that has all she has ever known. How does she put that aside and continue to try with you telling her that it is HER FAULT NOW BECAUSE SHE WON'T TRY AGAIN!

Wow. Lots of great advice. I need to really study this stuff. This requires a whole new way of thinking about my communication with her. The purpose of my communication should be understanding and showing my interest and acknowledging her feelings.<P>I guess I am equating understanding with agreeing. Can I understand, listen to and hear her and yet dissagree without negating the first part. I feel that she doesn't think I hear her when she says I need this separation to sort things out. I understand what she is saying but dissagree with her that that is the best thing for the family.<P>Maybe, when I have more time, I will post a hypothetical converstation with her in which I try to incorporate your advice. I've got to get back to work for now.<P>Great stuff. Thanks<P>PS. Things are worse than ever right now in our house. The reality of the separation is beginning to settle in. W nearly moved out this weekend after the above conversation. But decided to stay.<P>She expects to be separated sometime this week. We'll see. I'm still praying. Could use as many partners in prayer as possible. Thanks to those of you already praying!!!

So she is now leaving instead of you?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

No, unfortunately. She just got so frustrated that she started packing and was going to leave. If she doesn't get a job to support herself then yes, she will leave and live with her mother I guess. She will want to take the kids. I've already discussed that matter with her that I want the kids to stay in their current home, sleep in their current beds etc. I don't know what's going to happen.<P>gotta go