After 18 months of separation, where I continue to try to work things out in the face of a pending divorce and an ongoing affair, the question has hit me about who really is in denial here, my husband or me? It's true my husband will not talk about what went wrong with the marriage or give me an opportunity to make changes with him. He's been off having an affair and doing whatever he's wanted to for quite some time now.<P>Here's the thought I would like to ponder. A friend of mine said to me recently "well, he didn't get hit by lightning". Fairly perceptive. My husband abandoned his wife of 13 years, two months after giving birth, is having an affair with a subordinate at work, and NOTHING BAD HAS HAPPENED TO HIM. I still treat him respectfully and generously, his parents are nice to him, we all let him avoid talking about things, our seven year-old son still loves him, is well adjusted, and at the top of his class at school, and he continues to love his work and appears to be doing well there. Meanwhile, he has no responsibilities to his family except to provide a check each month and has a minimal relationship (and no caretaker role) for our toddler.<P>This brings me back to my central question. Perhaps it is ME that is in denial. You CAN leave your family and no negative consequences occur. Of course, in order for that to happen, I had to bust my butt to make a secure and happy life for the kids, keep them in close contact with the inlaws, make the arrangements for the kids to interact with their father, work with my son's teacher to overcome the problems he had at separation, provide a secure and loving environment for our baby, and build my husband up in my son's eyes.<P>Gee, I guess my personal values got in the way of there being any repercussions to his behavior. I really am controlling. Guess I'm a little cynical today, but I am really having problems with this.

Distressed,<P>I know how you feel. My x has no responsibilities either, she doesn't even have to write out the child support check as it's taken out of her pay automatically.<P>She went on vacation in Jan, is somewhere in the Carribean this week, just bought a house, all thanks to om's mother. She see's the kids once a week and every other weekend, only if she feels like it.<P>But she had to go on vacation to get away from all the problems of the divorce and work. <P>Meanwhile, I'll probably have to miss my daughter's bball game tonite because my son came home sick from school today and I don't have anyone to watch him. <P>I hope he isn't sick tommorrow as I need to may a long business trip as the report was due Sat, but I can't go because of my d's bball games and potentially my son being sick.<P>Meanwhile I don't get to go on any vacations since x doesn't take the kids more than 2 nites in a row.<P>I can only commiserate with you.<P>Bob

Distressed,<BR>I also kept my H from some of the natural consequences of having an affair, like losing his wife. His family was always here waiting for him to walk in the door. If I got tearful or angry, he could always leave...and come back another day.<P>Now that I won't let him move home, (yet he spends as much time here as ever) he says I'm punishing him. Well, I have said it is payback...I'm not caring so much about LBs with the divorce papers served, yet, I never like to intentionally hurt him.<P>He's lonely. I say he chose where he lives. He wants his family together...he threw us away the 7 times he moved out.<P>He gave up the OW for me. I say he never should have had her, certainly not again once he had broken off with her the first, second, third times. I think he gave me up for her. More than likely she didn't like being brushed off when he came back to me.<P>In your situation, with him contentedly out of the house, I don't know what reprecussions you could enact now. <P>You've done the right thing for your kids and I think that is what you have to cling to.<P>Sorry, I'm not much help today.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Distressed:<P>I know that you must be feeling incredibly frustrated, but the majority of the issues with the marriage now center solely around your husband. You've done your best to try to put this right, and you did handle yourself in a loving and caring manner.<P>Your kids will be better off for this. And I think you will too.<P>Face it, if punishment and repercussions would work as a cure for infidelity, then most of the world would be enjoying successful marriages after an affair, and Harley would be some crackpot with a lousy save percentage on marriages.<P>The end "repercussion" for him will be divorce. And it probably won't affect him anytime soon, based on your descriptions of his conflict-avoiding behavior. But imagine him at 70 or 80 years old... no one around, no one to care. Pretty sad, huh?<P>You, on the other hand, will be fine regardless.

Distressed,<P>I agree that many of the betrayers do not suffer any negative consequences from their actions. Even things that one would normally consider negative consequences, like not seeing much of your children, are only negative if you care. And in my H's case, he now has more disposable income as well. <P>I am not so sure about whether they will care when they are elderly. My FIL has never had any relationship to speak of with his grandchildren (nor much of one with my H), and he never made even a token effort to change that until a couple of years ago. <P>As long as you don't care about your family, there are no negative consequences to leaving them.

Hi Distressed -<P>I hear you, hear you, hear you!!!!!<P>I have reasoned along the lines that K suggests.......works to an extent for me.<P>My biggest recurring thoughts and frustrations really come down to not confronting the "things" in the relationship that I NEED to understand.<P>I think that we can handle the sole responsibilities we are left with - it's the why did he choose this and how could he's that keep our sense of right and wrong outraged. Perhaps a little residue of self-doubt about our choice of spouse and if we have somehow misjudged their character all along. Add to that a spoonful of occassional childhood flashback of "I am being punished for something he did".<P>Does this come close to some of your frustrations? <P>I know this much....<P>I always knew my own heart and mind.<P>I truly know I am capable of love without conditions and that it is not dependant on what is given to me.<P>I know who that man I married was and what he is capable of.<P>I cannot control his thoughts, words, actions or morals.<P>I am/have behaving/behaved in a manner that is contributing to the good of my own conscience/soul.<P>I have learned and grown which is the whole reason that we are on this earth to begin with.<P>I am fortunate that I have felt the overwhelming joy of pure love and would do it again in a heartbeat - a lot of people go through life never experiencing that!!<P>K's thinking is right...someday, someway the choices and unresolved issues H has run from will come up from behind and slam him against a wall!!! I wouldn't want that looming over me.....so I will continue in the manner that I feel good about and even continue to extend compassion and understanding to him in the hopes that I may aid in it not happening to him.<P>The purpose of all this mess for me? Strength, I guess!!! Strength of character, strength of love, strength of beliefs.......Strength of the soul!!!!!<P>Geez, but I do go on, don't I? LOL!!<BR>Hang in there and do what you feel is right for yourself.....<P>Big Hugs,<P>Sheba <P><BR>

Thanks everybody. To put it simply, after all this time my taker is starting to come out. Why not, it hasn't gotten anything in ages.<P>I think I'm just venting. The reality is that I wouldn't change a thing that I did for the kids. I am happy and delighted that they are relatively unimpacted by what has happened. I also am proud as I know it's mostly my accomplishment. As far as the actions towards my husband, however, I'm not sure I would do the same if I could turn back the clock 18 months. This approach didn't work for me, although I have no way of knowing whether anything else might have.<P>RWD, I hope you will be able to get some help with the kids so you can have a life for yourself. For us both, I think we need to start thinking about ourselves too. This superman stuff is not going to cut it over the long-term. I commisserate with you and pray we can pull ourselves out of this.<P>Lor, at this stage I really can't change anything. I am just very frustrated, as K says. I never wanted to punish my husband and think I've done the right things. But it all seems very UNFAIR. While I may be OK in the long-run, I am the short-run loser. I've lost my marriage and I have all the responsibilities. But, I also have my integrity and that's worth a fortune.<P>K, I do think I've done my best. It's not really in me to punish him. Anger takes alot of energy that I don't want to waste. Still, the situation seems ridiculous to me. I was brought up with a sense of right and wrong, and it seems there should be some downside to doing something this wrong. As many have told me, I'll just have to let the higher power deal with it.<P>Nellie, I think most betrayers DO suffer negative consequences. Our's haven't and they're the exceptions. It's true that if you don't care about your family, most of the negative consequences are not negative. But if you don't love your children, what exactly are you? I struggle with this. In a very real sense, I think that if this is how they REALLY are (not just temporarily driven by the affair), we are way better off without them.<P>Sheba, as usual, you nailed my thoughts exactly. But like you, I do feel strong. I also have pride about how I've handled things and what I've been able to accomplish for the kids. I'm also not ready to give up, although I feel I'm probably insane for continuing. Why do I love this irresponsible jerk so much? It's a total mystery to me.<P>Thanks again everybody. I appreciate your support. <P>But I am also HIGHLY resentful towards my husband at this stage.

If you want to find an example of negative consequences, just look at me. Not only did I lose my husband, but I've pretty much sworn off dating or relationships indefinately. Not that I expect you to feel sorry for me, cause I got what I deserved, apparently.<P>I'm truly sorry that both you and Nellie have been left to pick up the pieces. You don't deserve this.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 28, 2000).]

TheStudent:<P>There's a big difference between short-term infidelity that's acknowledged, where remorse is expressed, and where sincere efforts to make amends occur (your situation), vs. long-term infidelity that is lied about, then blamed on the victim, never apologized for, with no effort to make amends, acknowledge the pain felt by the family, or pick up any of the pieces. I don't think you got what you deserve AT ALL.<P>I am DYING to forgive my husband, but it's impossible to forgive someone that selfishly continues the amoral behavior and is totally unrepentent. Still, I wait and continue to pursue the opportunity to forgive him at some point. I don't think our situations are similar.

I picked up a few books on forgiveness this past year, both to forgive myself and also to forgive my ex-H. Almost everything I've read says that forgiveness can occur without participation from the other person. Granted, it is sure a whole lot easier when you see remorse and effort to repair the damage. <P>One of the reasons I stayed with my marriage after the confession, even though I was unhappy, was that I felt an obligation to help him heal, regardless of the outcome (to divorce or not to divorce). I've gotten slammed in the past for using the word "obligation" as some people tend to tie it to pity, which was not my case at all. My obligation stemmed from the idea that injustices deserve some kind of reparation, or at least an offer of reparation. <P>I think you've made great strides at forgiveness with the work you've done with your children. Forgiveness is one thing, allowing someone to continue to hurt you is another. You can have forgiveness (I believe) without necessarily allowing the person to stay in your life. I think your husband deserves forgiveness as a human being, however, he is not earning the right to stay in your life IMO. Sad for him. Sad for you too, because it is clear that you have a picture of what your life and marriage can be if your H can manage to take some responsibility for his choices. He will have to face this eventually. With his current actions, he is just prolonging the inevitable. The "inevitable" being the time when he is faced with the understanding of how his behavior affects other people.

TheStudent,<P>That is one of the problems - I don't think that it is at all inevitable that they will ever understand or care how much pain they have caused. I think there is a good possibility that they will go along their merry way, thinking that they had no choice but to do what they have done, thinking that their kids will be fine, and that they are good fathers as long as they pay child support and see their kids once in a while. My H actually tried to convince our oldest daughter that he had done the right thing by "putting his past behind him".

Nellie:<P>My complaint is even more fundamental than that. The problem really is THEY ARE RIGHT (at least in my case). Everything is fine with the kids, I probably will be fine in the long-run, and they get their selfish needs met, never have to look at their own behavior, and get to keep the love of the kids. I'll even suggest that eventually I'll find a better father for our children (how generous of my husband to give them that too). Our behavior has made them right. That's what I'm upset about. Yet, I know that I did the right thing and don't think I could do it differently.<P>IT'S JUST NOT FAIR. (OK, I know I sound like a five year old now).

Distressed,<P>The part that bothers me most is that it really is true that no good deed goes unpunished, and that my children will learn from this that selfishness does lead to happiness. How can any lessons we try to teach the children, about the values of honesty, commitment, trustworthiness ever really be taken to heart when they have the evidence right in front of them that you can have a perfectly happy life without concerning yourself with those values? Basically, what is the point? <P>I am not quite in the same situation as you, because my H only has the love of 4 out of 6 children (but after all, that's not his fault, and it's their loss, not his), I am not at all sure that the kids will be fine in the long run as this will affect their ability to trust - and I am certainly never going to be anything even approaching fine, and he probably doesn't have to worry about my finding another father for the kids. But none of that matters to him.

Distressed,<BR> I think K has a good point,here.While they(the betrayer)are dancing away in their new relationship,we(the betrayed)have to go through all this pain,and confusion.But I think we'll come out stronger,independant,and will have done a lot of soul-searching along the way.We probably know more about infidelity,divorce,and relationships than the average marriage counselor(a MB PHD.!)<BR> I believe most affairs,or marriages stemming from affairs ultimately fail,because the betrayer is really just running away,and their inner conflicts leading to the affair were never resolved.I'm pretty sure that will be the downfall of my W's relationship with OM.She being the ultimate conflict-avoider.<BR> I know a few people who's spouse left them for an affair,and later realized the grass wasn't greener.It might be a year or two,or even longer,but will eventually catch up to a lot of them.Some people seem to be always searching for the BBD(bigger and better deal),only to end up realising that what they had wasn't so bad after all.Perhaps after we have gotten strong and have moved on with our lives,they'll suffer the Big Dump,and be all alone to fend for themselves.With their soulmate gone,maybe they'll begin to realise just how many people they hurt with their actions.Perhaps life will be a little fairer then.<BR> --Murph

Hi Murph,<P> What you said is exactly what Frank Pittman says in "Private Lies"....it is an excellent book .He claims that usually when the betrayed spouse starts to feel better and gets on with their life(after working through all the pain) the merry betrayer and his wonderful relationship starts to fall apart. LU

I hear you!<P>My H left when I was 2 months pregnant. I got to go through a miscarriage all by myself due to stress/weight loss etc.<P>I get all of the household responsibilities and payments (he is living for free at his sister's where they treat him like the prodigal son)<P>I get the full responsibility of my daughter since he was the "step-dad" who SWORE he loved her as his own, however didn't make any attempt to contact her for 2 months.<P>I get the horrible feelings/emotions & depression. He is not going through any of this even though there is no OW anymore.<P>It doesn't seem fair! I am a firm believer though that they will have their time! It might not even be soon...but they will definitely get what's coming to them eventually. I actually feel sorry for him!<P>I do believe I am still in denial, but since my D will be final in 21 days, there is not much to deny anymore.....