I had an affair with another woman back in January. Our marriage of nearly 17 years wasn't bad, but it just wasn't like it use to be either. I hadn't gone out looking for the affair, but it happened just the same. And I take full responsibility for what I did. I recently started chatting on-line with another woman (a woman on the other side of the country who is a sister of a friend). I started spending more and more time in the evenings chatting with this other woman (and other friends) and less and less time chatting with my wife. <P>To make a long story short, the on-line woman asked if I had ever had an affair. I told her yes, but only once. I thought I'd never tell that to anyone, but I just had to tell someone. My wife had become suspicious of my chattings. I'd cover up my chat windows or kill them real quick when she came in or would stay up late chatting. Well, she installed a program on my computer that recorded key strokes (we are both very computer literate). She only saw one side of the conversation, but that was enough.<P>When she found out about the affair, she told me she wanted to know everything. It was a person who I use to work with, but I've since changed companies. She wanted to know her name, address, phone number, times, what she was doing when I came home, everything. I told her I would, but here is where we are having a disagreement.<P>Should I tell her her name, address, and phone number?<P>I have told her everything else. And I had no problem doing that. She says that she is not going to do anything with the information (and I believe her), but that it is a matter of trust. The two have never met even at work functions. The other woman has been divorced for several years. I don't see the benefit of telling her this information. She says she needs this information so we can be on the same playing field. What should I do?<P>As for the on-line woman, we stopped chatting in an affairish type way as soon as my wife found out about the physical affair. We both viewed the chatting as innocent 'AT THE TIME'. Unfortunately, my timing sucked. This woman too was having a not-so-great marriage and we were able to talk openly to each other about it. We were actually seriously talking about what we could do to make our own marriages 'hot' again (and yes there was cybersex talk going on during this). I would give her ideas and she'd do the same for me (99% of the ideas were non-sexual in nature). It was nice to be able to talk to someone who you know you'd never meet, but was having the same difficulties you were. She understood my problems and I understood hers. My wife didn't understand the on-line affair and at first said I could still chat with her since we had stopped acting like teenagers and started acting like adults. That has now changed. She doesn't want me to chat with the on-line woman anymore. Now I have no one that I can talk to about what I'm going through. My wife doesn't believe that I can just 'turn off' the cybersex just like that, but I can. I have no feelings for this other woman other than as a cyberfriend. I'm not looking for any answers for this part. I just needed a place to talk. And yes I've talked to my wife about this. We talk more now than ever before. Lots of things are better than ever before. :-D <P>I look forward to hearing from others. I've dug my own hole and now I'm trying to climb out. I sure could use some help!!!<P>Somewhere in Virginia<BR>I MESSED UP

Welcome "<B>I Messed Up</B>",<P>When you get a chance to read up on the MB sites "concepts" pages, you'll find out your wife's requests are more than reasonable.<P>For you to stop the online chatting is very important...<BR>...send the on-line woman here instead!<BR>...you could spend time here as well...<P>One of the "four rules for a successful marriage" is <B>total honesty</B>. You say you can trust your W about the information about the affair... prove it to yourself.<P>Stay around for yourself...<BR>Check out my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders</A> post...<BR>It's a good starting point for new folks.<P>Best wishes...<P> <P>Jim

I Messed Up--<P>Vent, cry, advise, soothe, and above all, EXPRESS...here. You will get responses, and varied ones to boot. This open forum is a wonderful way to express your problems and your successes. <P>No chance of cyber sex here.

Hi I Messed Up,<P>I do not think it is a good idea to be talking to other women one on one via the internet. You are in the perfect place right now to express your concerns and get ideas on how to help your marriage. This is a large group of people that have been through it all. A lot of people on this forum are well read in the saving the marriage department which I don't think you can say about anyone you pick up in some chat room. This might be a good place for your wife to come and read also. Just reading the information on the general Marriage Builders site is very helpful. <P>As far as your wife wanting to know everything I think it is important that she does if that is what she wants. I never even wanted to know my H's OW's name but he spilled it out one day (OW is still in the picture,H lives with her). I have never laid eyes on her and hope I never do. The reason I know where she lives is because my H lives with her now. I think maybe your wife might have a "safe feeling" if she knows the whereabouts of the OW. Maybe your afraid that your wife might confront other woman. If the affair is over and your wife believes that then I would not understand why your wife would want to confront her. <P>I hope others can offer more insight as to your wife wanting to know everything. I am still in a state of the affair going on and I am unsure how much I would like to know when it ends. <P>Good Luck!

Tell your wife the OW's name.<P>My H finally admitted to a 1-night stand from 14 years ago (I already knew it because I contracted an STD), but didn't want to tell me the OW's name. At first, he claimed that he didn't know who she was, but I didn't believe him.<P>I told my H that I did not <B>ever</B> want to be in the possible position of being in a friendly conversation or social situation with some woman who might be sitting there thinking, "I screwed her husband. Tee hee. " I also told him that if he was trying to protect some other woman from me confronting her, then he was putting another woman ahead of me, and I would no longer put up with that. He swore to me that I would never be in the position of being friendly to this woman. I asked, "How do you know that? This is a small town, and it's very likely that I will run into her at some point, if I haven't already." He blurted out that she was dead. It turns out that she died 9 years ago from cancer.<P>I also believe that my H had at least an emotional affair with another woman, which he still denies. I know who she is. I've managed to put the 1-night stand behind me, but I'm still hurting because I feel that he is trying to protect Cafe Woman from me--in short, putting her ahead of me. As long as he does that, I will never feel like he truly loves me. I do believe that he broke it off with her after I initially asked him if he was in love with someone else.<P>So, tell your wife whatever she wants to know. The OW does not deserve your protection. Your wife deserves to know that you are putting her ahead of any and all other women.<P>Oh, BTW, I never was in a social situation with the STD Tramp, but I found a picture of her in a high school yearbook and distinctly remember her going out of her way to smile and speak to me in a restaurant a long time ago. I asked my H at the time who that woman was, and he said that he didn't know. HAH!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Sweetpea (edited April 04, 2000).]

I'd tell her.<P>I agree with Sweetpea (she expressed exactly what I was thinking as far as the name goes). I would want to know who this other person was so that I would never be at a disadvantage in a conversation.<P>As far as the address and phone number go, if I were your wife I'd want to know that that info to cross reference against phone bills and credit card bills. I'd be wanting to know whether you sent her anything and whether you called her.<P>(FYI, I knew all these things as soon as I uncovered my H's affair as OW was a mutual "friend".)<P>Try hard not to defend OW in any way. Your wife does not want to hear anything in her defense right now.<P>Best wishes to you--let us know how things turn out. --HBC<P>

The name and address are pretty minor details in the scheme of things. If your wife only wants to know for the sake of knowing, I'd say tell her.<P>Keep in mind that you can always go to a counselor to talk about the issues in your marriage and learn ways to improve it. It is <B>never</B>, I repeat <B>never</B> appropriate to share your marital problems with a friend of the opposite sex. This automatically sets up a dangerous situation. You will most often be drawn to share with someone who is also having marital or relationship trouble and the door is thrown wide open for an affair. This is what happened in my husband's situation and in all too many of the other situations here. Talk to your wife, a counselor, or a friend of the same sex....but <B>don't</B> talk to another woman or anyone online. It is also important to only talk to friends who have the goal of strengthening marriages....people who won't aggravate your frustrations but will help you work through them positively.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31<P>

First of all, I need to tell everyone that I am “I Messed Up”’s wife. I was a bit shocked to see that my husband had posted to this board, but I had been showing him posts from this site ever since my D-day on March 8, 2000. I need to tell my side of the story and update everyone on what has happened since my husband posted.<BR>We have known each other for 21 years, and been married almost 17. We have 2 children. It was like we grew up together. My husband has been in jobs where he traveled often, and I always trusted him completely. Over the years, our marriage slowly turned monotonous. Ever since my husband got his first home computer in 1991, it was what he spent most of his time with. I couldn’t complain too much, because he was learning a lot about computers which enabled him to get better jobs. If he did happen to turn it off before midnight, he wanted me to spend time with him, no matter how tired I was at that hour. The kids always knew where they could find their father, in front of the computer. The few times we went on vacations with no computers or other distractions were wonderful. I don’t want to put all the blame on him either. We took each other for granted. Five years ago, I took a full time job. With all my additional responsibilities of 2 kids and a house, I am often asleep before midnight. We were like two ships passing in the night. I often asked my husband if he wanted to try marriage counseling, but he would say no. <BR>Recently, I noticed that he was trying to hide things on his computer screen whenever I walked by, and was spending even more time on it, late into the night. He was showing even less than the usual interest in me and the kids. I knew something wasn’t right, so I did some research and installed a program on his computer that logs all keystrokes. It took only 2 days of logging to find out. Not only did I learn of his affair in January, but he was having cybersex with another woman he has never met, who he confessed his affair to. He typed many very hurtful things to his cybersex partner. He told her that he was just sticking staying with me until the kids turned 18 and that the sex he had during his affair was the best he ever had. They even talked about possibly meeting someday. At the same time, he was also chatting slightly suggestively to a friend of mine, who I have to see at work everyday. I have never been more hurt in my life. I asked him to leave, but he wouldn’t. At first, I didn’t think I could ever begin to recover from my discovery. Then I decided that I wanted to try to work things out. We started talking more than we ever have. He acted like he was sorry, and told me it only happened once. I asked many questions that he would always answer. I told him I wanted him to call the OW and end all contact. He agreed and called her while I was sitting in the same room. He also reluctantly sent an email to his cybersex partner, complaining all along that he didn’t see anything wrong with continuing that relationship since they didn’t talk “like that” anymore since my discovery. He did it anyway because I wanted him to. At that point, we began what I thought was a recovery. He even told my friend that I knew about their chats and I haven’t spoken to her since. He still had a group of friends (2 women and 2 men) from his previous job that were very important to him, and assured me the OW was not part of that group. I knew he missed his friends from his old job, so I was trying to trust him when he went places to see them, chatted online with them, and sent emails and email cards to each other. He was even helping one of the women prepare her taxes and fix her computer and had made a couple of trips to her house for those purposes. We had even made an appointment with a counselor for next week. I thought that maybe there was hope of healing in the future, even though I was still in a lot of pain.<BR>I began to want more and more information about what happened. I wanted details, full names, phone numbers, etc. I’m not sure why I did. I wanted to be in control. I was never planning on contacting the OW at all. I also wanted to see if he could trust me with the information the same way he wanted me to begin to trust him. He told me some things, like first name, that they didn’t work directly with each other in his previous job, what city she lived in, and her age. I agreed with “Sweetpea” when you said that you wanted to have the knowledge to avoid being put into an uncomfortable situation. I also wanted to cross-reference phone bills out of curiosity. At first, he refused to give me a last name, but after I explained why I felt the way I did. He told me a last name. Of course, I looked it up on the Internet, assuming I would find the address and phone number, but there were too many people with the same name. I showed him a print out of all the names. He got very angry and went to bed for the night. I knew at this point that there was something else going on. I insisted on knowing EVERYTHING. This was the point when he posted his message to this board. He wanted everyone to tell him that he didn’t need to tell me everything, so he could live happily ever after.<BR>He called me at work to tell me that tonight (last night) he would tell all (after he read some of your replies, I think!). I was relieved to know that soon everything would be out in the open and we could continue our recovery. He said that he would be stopping by his friend’s house to deliver her taxes and said “after that, it will be all over”. I didn’t think much about his statement. I was busy at work and had a coworker in my office and couldn’t speak freely. When I was alone later, a light bulb went off! The OW was a women from his close group of friends! I just knew that when he told me “all”, that it wouldn’t be true. I was letting my mind play tricks on me.<BR>Well, last night, after the kids were asleep, he gave me a print out with the name, address, and phone number. I was right. It was his “friend”. The phone call to her to tell her goodbye a month ago was “staged” . He had called her while I was out with the kids to warn her (he had to remind her he would be using the first name he had told me). The cute little email cards since my discovery were to and from her. The visits with his group of friends included her. He was even nice enough to finish her taxes! He even lied about her age, she’s actually 17 years older than he is! He claims that when he delivered her taxes to her house yesterday, he told her it was over and said goodbye. All the time that I thought we were moving toward a recovery, he had been lying to me. His life since January, when he had the affair has been one big lie. I thought we were getting so close while talking about our marriage, but all along he was lying. I’ve been played as the fool all along. He doesn’t understand why I’m feeling the way I do today because he says he’s telling the truth now. I don’t even know what I’m feeling anymore. I don’t know the person I thought I’ve know for 21 years. It’s not anger. It’s just pain. I don’t know if I can ever trust again.<BR>I’m sorry for writing a novel, but any advice anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated.

I was scared. I was confused. I had never done anything like that or anything close like that in my entire life. When in the military, I use to think how terrible it was for other husbands (and wives) to cheat on there spouses when they went on temporary assignments. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where to turn. When she asked me for her name, I paniced and lied.<P>I never had sex with the OW other than the one time. We (me and the OW) knew that what we had done was wrong and knew that it would never happen again. I already had the OW's taxes and told her I'd finish them for her. Sometime thereafter is when my wife found out about the affair. As I said, I was scared and paniced. I made up a name to protect, I guess, all of us. I didn't want my other friends to find out about us. I didn't want my wife to find out how much older she was than me. I thought that would hurt her too much. I thought that everything would work itself out and all the hurting would eventually stop. I was wrong... I knew that my contact with the OW had to end. I saw the OW three times since my wife found out. Once was with my group of friends for my birthday. Once was to get a document for her taxes at her house (I got the document and left, nothing else). Finally, I went to her house this week to give her her taxes and to tell her that would be the last time I saw her. I did not kiss her or anything like that. I didn't want that guilt added to all my other guilt.<P>I posted my original message, not hoping people would tell me not to tell my wife the OW's real name, but looking for help. I found what I was looking for in your post.<P>I knew that I could make up a phone number and that my wife would be honest and not call the OW. But after reading other post on MarriageBuilders, I knew I had to tell her the WHOLE truth.<P>I knew that what I did was wrong and that being scared and panicing isn't an excuse for what I did. But I hope that my wife finds it in her heart to forgive me for what I have put her through. I do understand why my wife feels the way she does now. I just hope she can see that I love her more than anything in the world. I don't want to lose her. I don't want to live without her. I need her.<P>I know it might be too late for this now, but I am SO sorry for what I have done to you. Please forgive me....<P>A loving husband who wants a second chance...<BR>

Okay...now you can really begin recovery. <P>First of all, don't panic and don't let these feelings of pain and confusion cause you to do something that would only add to the pain in the long run. The feelings you are dealing with are completely normal....wondering if you ever really knew your husband, wondering if everything you thought was normal was really normal, wondering if you will ever feel anything close to normal again. I imagine that you are feeling physically ill, probably not eating much and that your sleep patterns are very erratic. You are probably crying a lot and having a terrible time controlling your thoughts. This is all normal and I promise you it <B>will</B> get better.<P>Your husband is feeling total panic and fear right now. It truly sounds as if he has had the scales removed from his eyes and knows that he stands to lose everything....his wife, his children, his self-respect, possibly even his friends and his job. His entire life as he has known it is on the line. In some ways this is good....it helps him see the reality of his actions and will go a long way toward helping him avoid the same mistakes in the future. It is important that both of you acknowledge that the other is feeing intense pain and confusion. Aknowledging your husband's pain doesn't diminish your own or release him from the consequences of his stupidity....but I know that it can draw you closer together as you heal.<P>You absolutely can heal from this. You can deal with it and you can have a fantastic marriage....one that you may have had before or maybe even better. No, some things will never be the same, but that doesn't have to be a negative in your lives. Those things can actually be better....better communication, better family time, better sex, better everything. And you don't give credit to the affair for all of that, you give credit to your own decision to work through it and win the battle for your marriage.<P>I have a couple of concrete suggestions for you....my husband and I are 2 years away from the revelation and end of his brief affair. The circumstances that fed his vulnerability were much the same as in your case. The ow was a supposed friend to both of us and the affair was very brief with only two sexual encounters. It ended at the revelation. I will tell you that we did talk about our unhappiness in our marriage about 6 weeks before I knew there was an affair....the sex had ended, but the emailing was continuing and a couple of secret meetings happened during that time. I, like you, thought we were both working on the marriage, but was wrong. That was very painful, but I was able to overcome it.<P>My first suggestion is to keep the counseling appointment....you need the objectiveness of a third party. Be certain that your counselor is a trained marriage and family therapist and that his/her views on marriage restoration parallel yours. If you don't both make a connection with this one, keep looking until you find someone you can both be honest and comfortable with.<P>My second suggestion is to find the book Torn Asunder by Dave Carder and read it. I have read three books on recovery after an affair and it is absolutely the best one, in my opinion. It is written for both of you to read and will help you through this process.<P>My third suggestion is the most important.... I don't know your beliefs, but I know for a fact that my faith in God and my reliance on Him is what saved and restored my marriage. God orchestrated the end of the affair in answer to my husband's prayers for help and He gave me the strength to not walk away from the pain. He carried us for most of the first year and led us the rest of the way. I <B>know</B> God is the answer.....<P>Again, I urge you to come to the In Recovery boards here....you will find great support and help there.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31<P>