Nope, ignoring wasn't a reason for a divorce in the bible. Neither was physical abuse, or alcoholism, drug abuse, or child abuse. IMO, the only reason why adultery is considered the only reason for divorce in the bible is because it is the only thing that could affect men (i.e. illegitimate birth from unknown conception and laying claim to property). Totally outdated now.<P>Sorry if what I said rubbed anyone the wrong way. I just think that telling him she wants a separation or divorce if things don't change should be enough to motivate him. If it doesn't motivate him, well, then she has her answer. Without giving him an excuse not to work on the marriage too, which is what she'll be doing if she confesses. You see, I don't believe she deserves to be divorced over what she did. Confession sometimes tends to give a few thick-headed "betrayed" the idea that they did nothing wrong in the marriage and a handy excuse to bail.

Hi.<P>I need to clarify something else...<P>I would NOT divorce my husband for neglecting me...I'm not THAT shallow. <P>I am determined to fight for my marriage. But, even with all of my determination, I am capable of growing weary, too. I'm tired, but not tired enough to give-up the man that I love. Sure, I've thought of walking away LOTS of times over the years -- I'm human.<P>Yes, I realize that right now my marriage IS technically hanging by a thread. <P>I'm just admitting that I'm TIRED and frustrated and hurt and lonely...nothing more/nothing less.<P>I'm not giving-up. Like I said, I'm just having a "baby me" day.<P>Jill

I did threaten divorce for years if my husband didn't shape up. It landed me smack dab in the middle of an affair. I'd never take that route again. <P>As for this going on for years, Jill I understand completely. It was like talking to a wall (quite literally) My approach to anger is the yelling and the screaming. His is the shut up and walk away. (the passive-aggressive approach) I've found through trial and error that the best way to get a response out of him, is not to badger but to tell him how I feel. I feel neglected when I don't hear a response from you. Is there something wrong? Then I usually find out he was just self-absorbed in a ball game and didn't hear me. Sometimes its because he's still falling back into those passive-aggressive tendencies, but I've found most of the time its not. Telling him how I feel has in the past resulted in him being more attentive. He doesn't want me to feel neglected any more than I want to feel neglected.<P>This is my situation. Yours could be quite different. I mean your husband could be mildly autistic and incapable of acknowledging you as a human being. He could have some sort of social disorder. My husband's introversion score is off the scale. He doesn't talk much to anyone. <P>Anyway, just wanted you to know that I understand. It's not fun feeling like your invisible. Baby steps...BTW the husband who a year ago was going to leave me for a women he'd only met through emails and chat groups told me he loved me (not a response back) when he thought I was still asleep. I got him though. I told him I love you too right back. It's a long process through recovery. Tackle one problem at a time.<BR>Anyway a little bit of cyberstrength sent your way......

Beth28,<BR>I wouldn't encourage anyone to threaten something they weren't planning on carrying out. Empty threats don't mean a thing, as you discovered. <P>What I'm really sick of hearing about is all the contortions women (at least the ones on this forum) go through to get their husbands to open up and communicate, or get them to travel less, spend more time with the children, or whatever. I'm pretty sure their husbands don't devote half the mental energy to the relationship as their wives are, and that is where the problem lies. I think if more men were faced with divorce or the option of spending a little energy on the relationship, I think they'd choose the latter option. Most people only work just as hard as they have to, and as long as the women are willing to do the lion's share of the relationship work, men will continue to slack off. They don't have much incentive to change, IMO.

I probably will be put in the <I>Tell you Husband about the affair</I> group <P>But my advice would be that you find a time, soon, to talk some serious issues with him, and use that time to talk about your dissatisfaction of the state that your marriage has been in for the last 6 years, and that his neglect has indeed already had paved the road for your affair, an action that you regret having embarked on, but nevertheless his behaviour made it easier to fall into that trap.<BR>You should make it clear to him, that you're more than willing to try to save the marriage and make it a better marriage in the future, but you really need him to work with you on this. I would print out some of the articles found on this site and show him them, more specific the <B>Four Rules to a Successful Marriage</B> and whatever other articles you find relevant to your marriage.<P>In my own case I needed a pretty big wake up call from my wife to kick my butt into gear, and start working on the problems that we had been facing for years... It wasn't until I was on the brink of losing my wife that I woke up, and that wasn't even quick enough to prevent the following affair,<BR>we have been working on a better marriage after this and we are now three months into recovery and our marriage hasn't been as good and fulfilling as it is now, that we're both trying to correct the bad behaviors of the past, and solve problems sooner than ever, and certainly before they have a chance of festering.<BR>In the days before all of this happened, I was ignoring my wife, since I felt that everything that came from her was complaints, complaints, and even more, not realizing that she had tried almost every other way of telling me about the problems in a non-complaining way and before they turned into problems, but I was too wrapped up in my own problems that I didn't see this.<BR>Now we are much more attentive to the needs of the other, and we have through talks, talks and more talks as well as counselling and reading material from this site etc. learned how to nurture and keep our marriage alive and well. A hard lesson, but well worth it in the end.<P>I feel like I'm rambling here, but what I wanted to end up with, was that I think that your Husband needs a <B>WAKE UP CALL</B>, one that can be heard to the core of his being, and cannot be ignored. He needs to see that he needs to commit himself to do his part of tending and nurturing your marriage, just as you do yourself, but if both of you are willing to do so, you might end up with a marriage that will be better than it has ever been before, except perhaps in the first honeymoon year.<P>Take care and the best of hopes for you and your marriage.<BR>

I don't think I've contorted all that much. Granted some women do, and when they walk away from the encounter they feel afraid, neglected, lonely, worn out. There is a big difference between settling for the way it always has been, and changing your approach to influence a change in the others approach. <BR>The idea is not to accept, but to do something in a positive light. A lot of people have talked about this major wake-up call, and I'll admit my husband's affair was a major wake-up call, but you know what...he could have woken me up differently. His wake-up call has repurcussions. It has had a negative impact on our relationship. I'll be the first to say over the years I drained his lovebank down to practically nothing. His affair took a huge chunk out of mine. I don't think banging someone over the head is going to motivate them in a good way to make a change. Jill's not ready to walk away. She wants her husband, so she gently persuades him that he wants to meet her needs. <P>I don't think it will take that much persuading. He married her, loves her, and the last thing he wants to do is hurt her. He needs to be taught how not to hurt. Not through hurting in return, but by example and feedback. <P>Besides...She said she was having a bad day. I've had those. The ones where all you want to do is say hey everybody look at how I've been wronged even though you know it's more complicated than that. So I again will send out cyberstrength so that Jill will feel empowered by her actions to affect a change in her husband that will make her feel less neglected.

Hi Jill!<BR>I don't get on the computer for a day and what happens? I'm sorry that I wasn't here to send you my prayers sooner.<P>You know what? I read these things that he is doing to you.... and I don't see ONE BIT where it was caused by your doing what you did no matter what anyone else thinks. I can however, see how you got to the point of the affair. Been there, done that. Mine was less of the ignoring from the H, but more of the blame and criticism I got from him.<P>Telling your H about your affair isn't going to make him ignore you less...He is not ignoring you because you had an affair and aren't telling him...The ones who think you are exagerating it because of the guilt you feel, in my opinion, don't know what they are talking about... <P>Most people here think that if you tell your H everything is going to be better. And if he leaves you, well HEY! At least you were honest about it! Well... I do NOT agree with that... ONE BIT! You love him and you want to keep your marriage together.<P>I think that a lot of peoples opinions here are those of hurt people who have been betrayed and just think that everyone else should have to go through the same process as they did. Well... I'm Sorry! But I do not think that is the right way in ALL cases. <P>You have been doing everything you can lately to keep your marriage thriving. You know what you did, you accepted it, you seeked out counseling and forgiveness from God... And you have devoted yourself to your H and your marriage. Now... you are not getting much help from your H lately with this ignoring you thing... but... that doesn't mean that it is going to keep happening. So don't give up....<P>I think that your H has been taking some good steps towards your marriage by doing the reading. I do think that you need to have a serious talk with him about the ignoring problem. He needs to agree to LISTEN to you tell him what he does and how it makes you feel. And he needs to tell you why he does it. Maybe that will bring some other issues out that haven't been discussed before too.<P>We all know that there are many ups and downs in marriage. There are days that if my H bends over in front of me the only thought that runs through my mind is.. "PUNT!" And it's all I can do to keep from doing it! But there are the days that I just can't keep my eyes off him and quit touching or hugging or kissing him.<P>Yikes! Just read the update you wrote about the back rub! So I had to come back and edit. That was so sweet!<P>Hang in there Jill... and know that my thoughts are with you...<P><BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited April 05, 2000).]

Jill:<P>For what it is worth, I do not agree at all with The Student's remarks.<P>I still feel you are being eaten alive inside, like a cancer from not being openly honest with your husband.<P>I can promise you that if he doesn't hear from you, it will come to light somewhere in the future.<P>Please weigh this...<P>[censored] from Texas

To tell or not to tell isn't what this is all about right now. Being ignored and neglected is. I usually don't post too much but this has got my goat today.<P>I have been ignored and neglected for at least 14 years out of my 18 year marriage. My H is a workaholic. We have talked about separation, about divorce and my H still hasn't gotten "the hint!!" What in the world are you suppose to do with these men? <P>I've tried even telling him outright what he is doing and still nothing!! I've told him that hes pushing me to turn to other men still nothing!! Maybe thats what he wants, but a person can only take so much.<P>Is there really any hope for these type of men?<P>I don't feel Jill telling is going to make a bit of a difference at this point. Hang in there Jill!<P>falsely accused

Jill--<P>I'm mainly a lurker but I just wanted to chime in and say that it is NOT shallow to seek a divorce because of neglect. Dr. Harley says that is the MAIN reason that women leave men.<P>------------------<BR>Bonnie

Jill,<P>Boy Jill now you have gotten me mad LOL<P>You have started the annual spring bash men forum again. According to TheStudent all divorces are caused by men and their insensitivity. This has now be seconded by many. Yet these men are usually just the way you married them. <P>Finally, for TheStudents benefit there are many men posting on this board whose wives have left in an affair and are not beating them up but trying like crazy to rebuild their marriages. <P>I realize that TheStudent feels that marriages are a communist plot designed by men for world domination, but she is wrong again. Marriage serves males and females needs. They may not be the same needs but it does serve both of their needs. If that wasn't so TheStudent wouldn't have married twice. She is a very bright young woman.<P>Jill: I am glad it is just a down day for you. I think the Beth28 is on the right track. You need and deserve better communication with your H. If one method of acheiving it doesn't work try another. Someone did mention, the possibility that he knows or suspects the affair. If that is the case then his behavior is understandable but not very productive.<P>I won't get into the tell/not tell stuff. You will know when you are ready if ever.<P>Take care Jill. I am not really on you for starting the Spring Bash Men Forum. But your situation obviously does touch many hearts here. No matter what side these posters are on with regard to you revealing the affair, you do know that they are all on your side and want to see you happy.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

LOL<P>How did "lil' ol' me" start the MALE BASHING?<P>LOL<P>I wasn't trying to male bash...I was just "stating the facts"...I apologize, guys!<P> <P>Jill

Scubagirl,<BR>He acknowledges the fact that that is the main reason women leave men, but I don't read that he advocates that reason for divorce. As a matter of fact it appears from my perspective that he is pretty hopeful that by making sure all of the lovebusters disappear, and meeting the others needs that yours will like a pendulum get met too. Not that it's a guarentee, but he's had enough experience working with couples to see it happen time and time again.<P>Before the affair, when I contemplated divorce from time to time I thought I had done everything. I was open with how I was feeling, I was assertive, I felt like a good wife, I did the things that the stereotypical woman is supposed to do for her husband. I didn't refuse sex, I kept a clean house, told him I loved him. All that stuff. There was no reason for him to go searching out anyone else, because you know what...I was darned near perfect. (lol) The minute you sit back on your laurels and think that you haven't and can't harm your spouse is the minute you do without realizing it. The minute you think you've learned everything there is to know about relationships is the minute you stop growing and doom your relationship to stagnation. It's not about passing blame. It's about being the best person you can be because you are the only person you can control.<P>I'd like to go smack Jill's husband up along the side the head, and scream "Wake Up." I can do that and risk him getting mad because what difference does that make to my life? (Ok, I'd feel guilty. I'm a nice person most of the time. )<BR>Jill does that and she's LB'd with a pretty nasty and violent angry outburst.<P>So what's Jill to do? Evaluate her own behavior to make sure there isn't some hidden LB or unmet need that she can take care of. Keep communicating in as concise and positive a direction as she can. Have a little patience to let the system work. Keep searching for other answers, and if she finally does get fed up and wants out of the marriage well then she contacts an attorney.<P>Sounds like stuff your well on your way to doing huh Jill?

Don't start the annual "Bashing" without me !!!<P>Seriously, I do not believe in bashing anyone...besides, men aren't that bad (some of my best friends...Oh, nevermind .<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You have started the annual spring bash men forum again. According to TheStudent all divorces are caused by men and their insensitivity. This has now be seconded by many. Yet these men are usually just the way you married them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Stop the presses!!! JL's WRONG!!! </B><P>Since it may never happen again, I'd like this occurrence to be duly noted now.<P>JL, no, they ARE NOT just the way we married them--they do change after marriage. That's what the whole love bank concept is about...that someone who once filled your lovebanks no longer is doing so, and needs to learn how to again.<P>The man I married talked to me...the man I'm married to often acts like he is being charged by the syllable. The man I married liked to go out and have fun every chance we got. The man I'm married to thinks it's too much trouble to do so (or at least to make a habit of it). And so on...<P>And yes, we change too...I see evidence of that in many, many men's posts here. <P>Some changes are good and some bad. But, few folks are the same people now that they were when they married, or that they'll be in another 15 or 20 years.<P>

Beth—<P>I realize that in no way does Dr. Harley advocate divorce, I was just trying to reassure Jill that her feelings of being neglected are real and they are common and they do build up over time. I don’t feel that neglect is a shallow reason for divorce at all. There are so many nuances and complexities regarding neglect that after almost 8 years of Jill’s marriage, I’m sure these issues are very, very deep for her. Of course, now having said that, I’m not saying that Jill should divorce her husband. I’m a MB advocate. My husband and I are quite successfully navigating through repairing our relationship with Steve Harley’s help. I just wanted Jill to know that being neglected in a relationship is very serious (as we all know too well now) and that I didn’t want her to place too little importance on her feelings about that, or to consider neglect a shallow reason for separation/divorce.<P>Hope that helps clear up my somewhat cryptic statement… <BR><P>------------------<BR>Bonnie

I know that y'all on this board don't believe in "psychobabble", but since everyone else has put in their 2 cents worth, here is mine. <BR> How pleasant can it be for Jill's husband to go around acting like a jerk all the time? People don't act like this unless there is something really wrong. To me it sounds like he is filled with rage at something and can't find a way to express it. It's scary to realize you have these awful feelings and even scarier to think about letting them out! I speak from experience, I am a woman but I was the same way. I clammed up, ignored my H, used little subtle stabs to get at him because I just couldn't tell him that I was mad or what I was mad at. I didn't even know what was wrong, I just knew I was ANGRY!! I was the poster child for passive-agressive behavior. This was long before my H's affair. I would still be miserable (and divorced) if my H hadn't let me know how serious our situation was and we hadn't gone through lots and lots of counseling. <P>Even if Jill leaves, her husband will still be angry unless he gets help. They need the skills to be able to talk about things with each other and the only way to get those skills is with help from an outside, uninvovled professional who isn't a friend. You just can't get them from a book. Call me a psychobabbler, but I never knew I could take charge of my life and feel this accomplished and satisfied in myself and my marriage. I could never have done it without help. I just didn't know how.<P>By the way, today is our 20th anniversary and we are better than ever! It is worth the expense and the work to go through this if you really love each other and want to stay together.<p>[This message has been edited by Dancer812 (edited April 05, 2000).]

Kam6318,<P>Caught and conficted . What am I to do? <P>In my defense, I did say "usually". And you are right, people do change, but quiet people don't <B>usually</B> become rowdy. <P>What I was really driving at is TheStudents blanket statements about men. And the prevalent feeling that it is their ignoring women's needs that leads to most divorces. It really is a two way street. If women are such great communicators why can't they communicate with men? In reality it is not that easy for either party to understand these issues.<P>Actually, the comment to Jill was definitely tongue-in-cheek as she did understand. But I will admit. <B>I HAVE BEEN WRONG</B>. <P> and to you KAM .<P>Have a good day,<P>JL<P>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited April 05, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited April 05, 2000).]

Jill: I am just here to give you a hug and a "it's going to be alright" pat on the head. You do what you feel is right for you. I have been through this "to tell" or "don't tell" myself. I finally had to do what was right for all concerned and I feel I made the right decision. <BR>I have been given another chance at my marriage and I am fighting like hell to save it. Life on occasion is a gamble and/or a risk. We were are human and we learn by trial and error. I do not go to church or participate in any church activities, my faith in Jesus has waivered in my younger years, but during that time and now, I believe that he was always with me and loved me unconditionally despite my faults. I remember a story (from the bible I assume)When Jesus was on the cross, there were two robbers or criminals of some sort on each side of him. One criticized Jesus for not saving himself and them as well from this death sentence. The other man stated that because of their crimes, both robbers/criminals deserved their punishment, but this man(Jesus) was innocent of any crime. He then ask Jesus, that when he entered his kingdom, if he would remember him(the remorseful criminal). Jesus replied, you will be with me in paradise. I am not trying to preach religion to anyone. This is for me to survive by. I have tried to commit suicide twice already and have my days when I fear I will complete the deed. I believe I have been forgiven and now have another chance to make amends and to live my life as Jesus intended. Jill, I commend you for your strength to overcome obstacles, painful mistakes and neglect. You have been able to recognize where the problems are in your marriage and are looking for steps to help address and find solutions for those problems. My prayers and wishes for much luck in your journey to a better marriage.<BR>Here's another hug for you.

We are darned near perfect aren't we J.L. ? (Rofl) <p>[This message has been edited by beth28 (edited April 05, 2000).]

sobeit:<P>Thank you for the hug. <P>My thoughts and prayers are with you today.<P>Jill