Well, I passed on the URL to my “I am the betrayer” post onto my wife and I’m sure she read it, but no comments yet. Some folks replied by trying get me to meet my wife’s ENs, but she is so hurt, she won’t let me get close. She prefers I come by and see the kids only when she is working (a couple of nights a week). Each day I realize what a louse I am. <P>I met with my counselor Tuesday and the meeting was good. He did ask me about suicide because he’s knows how mixed up I am. I’ve said I have fleeting thoughts of it, but only that. I ride a motorcycle and the occasional, yet inevitable, close call with a cage (car) has me sometimes thinking it’s not a bad way to go. She appears to be adamant about moving ahead without me. While she also attends counseling, she will not at this point attend marriage counseling with me. She feels there is no marriage to counsel. I have hurt her that much.<P>Part of my problem is the world of email. The OW and I enjoy writing, but I got sloppy, and my wife was basically computer illiterate, that was until my behavior changed. She then got motiviated and surprised me. She did some digging and found some damaging stuff. References to future plans, love letters, cybersex, the gamut... not a lot, but enough painful material. After resuming contact, I established more email addresses and got a little sloppy again. My wife was now even better at the keyboard. Since my employer is very security conscious, I have passwords for everything. In an effort to KISS (keep it simple stupid), I use only a couple of PWs, well she figured it out and found some more very hurtful letters. She now has quite a folder. She has inferred to my best friend’s wife that the marriage is over.<P>We all know the best way to work your way back into a happy marriage is to stop seeing the OW. Well, since my wife appears to be so strong in her conviction to move on without me, I don’t want to lose the OW, too. Then I will have nothing. No home, no family, no wife, no money and no dreamgirl. My wife feels that I am such a liar and if I am living away from home, how can I convince her that I’m not seeing the OW? I just open my mouth to let words out and I am lying. I don’t mind living away from home if I know there is an end in sight. I would like to get her to agree that if I stop seeing the OW, she would let me back in over a certain period of time, of course I have to convince her, but how? Someone suggested staying in my house but in separate rooms, I would love that. Being back in the house is really the only sure way I can beat the withdrawal. I need my wife there to help me beat it. Out on my own is a loser, the magnetism of the OW will overwhelm me. My wife just feels letting me back in and then having me pull put the same stunt again will severely hurt the kids, not to mention her. I agree. Even though I plead that I won’t, she doesn’t want to risk it with my track record. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... fool me three times... Again, I know the suggestion will be to stop seeing the OW, regardless, but how can I prove to my wife I have cut the ties if I am not at home?

CMan,<P>I don't know all your details...<P>Are you on the deed to the house...<BR>...or cosigner on the lease (if it is an apartment)?<P>Most states will now allow your W to lock you out of the house unless there is a clear and present danger to her or the kids...<P>I would strongly recommend...<BR>...giving her notice of your intentions...<BR>...<B>and the move back</B>.<P>Maybe a week or so for her to get adjusted to your return!<P>Over and above that issue..<BR>...don't move back until you have a clean break with the OW...<P>I'd suggest that you draft a <B>How to tell a lover that the relationship is over letter(on page 58-59 of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A>)</B>...<BR>Have her read it...<BR>Have her make comments if at all possible...<BR>Have someone other than you (that your W will trus) deliver it to the OW...<P>AND then get real serious about NO CONTACT with the OW!<P>Yes...<BR>Betrayers (WS) do do <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>s too! It is not just for the betrayed(FS)!<P>I hope I wasn't too forward...<BR>...but I think this is the right path for you.<P> <P>Jim

CMan,<BR>Your biggest problem right now is.... You don't want to stop with the OW. Your wife feels that and you have admitted it here. You can't have it all. You don't want to give her up because if this doesn't work with your wife, you will still have her?<BR>Heyyyyyyy guy, This heeling will take maybe a couple of years or more, your going to hang on to the OW that long? I don't think so.......cause you won't even get the chance to have one day of healing. I guess your wife and your family isn't worth the break. That is what you are saying.<BR>It's all or nothing. Scared of being alone? What a good reason to want your family. If that was the only reason my H wanted us,,,,,,,,no way would I have WANTED him. He said if I hadn't have taken him back like I did, he would have just moved into another room of the house and waited, given it his All. That would have impressed on me how much he NEEDED us in EVERY way. But then if you are on the fence not knowing what you want......I'm sure it is obveous to your wife......we have that intuition......she sees right through you.<BR>Sorry, no, I'm not, you have to get with the program, or move on to the other shaky relationship with your "Dream Girl" who will always be there for you, never look at another man like she did you, even though you were married, forget the one who has been there for you all these years, raised YOUR children, took care of you, and now just has to move on cause you are having fun with someone else. <BR>I probably should delete this post cause I am hitting you hard.......but, maybe you need it. If you decide to take the OW way out, maybe that would be the best for your wife too. I'm mostly thinking of her.<P>Almost Happy<P>-------<BR>TIME

CMan:<P>If you truly want to save your marriage you have to plunge forward as if that was the only way to go and not try to keep that ace in the hole (OW).<P>You have to realize that, as much fun as Dreamgirl may be, she's keeping you from having any chance of getting back with your wife.<P>If things don't work out with your wife, you will eventually meet another woman to share your life with. You won't be alone. But if you keep stringing Dreamgirl along you're not being fair to anyone. How would you like it if someone said to you, "Can we get together if my relationship with John Doe doesn't work out?" <P>My H is having trouble cutting the cybersex lines as well. I found out about his affair by breaking into his e-mail, though I only started when he left a suspicious (but not damning) e minified on the screen. He has since broken off with PA woman, but he still e's others. He told me the last time I caught him (and I must tell you I get physically sick every time I find something else; never been a bulimic and now I know why) that he thinks he was actually trying to get caught. He said he thinks he wanted me to catch him and make him stop I wasn't so sympathetic, but is it possible that you were also trying to get caught with your W? <P>I now know how to get into all of his e-mail (well, I think it's all of his e-mail). He has agreed that I can look at any of his chats at any time to see if they are on the up and up. And I chat sometimes with him, too. We have sat across the room from eachother and e-ed--silly but fun. <P>Would your W ever agree to do that? Maybe, but not if you keep on with Dreamgirl. "Why does he need me; he's got another waiting in the wings?" I can hear her wondering.<P>You need to make a choice and give it your all.<P>Good luck, CMan. And keep away from those "cages"! --HBC

Hi CMan,<P> I have to agree with the others, your W can see right through you I'm sure. Wanting to hold onto your "Dreamgirl" as a backup is not the way to reconcile.Sorry to be blunt but everything smacks of "what's best for Cman"?.<P> Even if you were to go with Dreamgirl the chances of this working is extremely slim to nil.....get Private Lies by Frank Pittman and read it. The longer you sit the fence the harder you are making it on your W.....LU

Thank you guys. Keep hitting me. I need it. It so obvious, but in my clouded state, it ain't clear. Work on me, I'm listening. I am moving, albeit slowly.

CMan,<BR>PS......You don't know the depth of being alone untill you loose your Family. Mentally you will be crushed. It only gets worse and worse as you go through the years with out them, and what it will do to them. So how many lives are you throwing away? <BR>Think about it!<P>Almost Happy<P>--------<BR>TIME

CMan,<P>Extraordinary screwups require extraordinary efforts to overcome.<P>The only way your W will (or might) be willing to even consider giving you a chance is if you make a spectacular move.<P>Somehow you need to throw yourself at your Ws feet and be willing to do (almost) anything she requires to allow you to prove yourself trustworhty to her over time.<P><B>IF</B> she is willing to take such a chance, this is going to be tough on you. You need to be willing to give up the ordinary rights and priveleges (privacy, etc.) that you used to betray her.<P>You would have to be willing to "work without a net" meaning you <B>MUST</B> give up OW permanently and completely. There can be no back door.<P>If you aren't ready to take extreme measures to repair the marriage, then she has no reason to take you back or trust you.<P>So big shot , are you up to the challenge?<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

It sounds like you are living in hell CMman, well I can relate to some degree. I was the "Dreamgirl" to someone who had no trouble giving me up. I am married and when my husband found out I was emailing someone, he went more than crazy. Our marriage had already suffered so many problems that this glitch didn't seem like a big deal. But it was; it was a wake up call to all that was wrong. After five months of feeling like I was the most cherished person on earth, I couldn't give up the OM at first. My husband took care of that for me by calling his wife and telling her about us. He dropped me instantly; no goodbye nothing. I think I may have hooked up with the only betrayer who had no problem with this. I still am resentful of my husband for what he did. Anyway, you have to decide what you want to do without your dreamgirl. If she wasn't in the picture what would you do? People don't get involved in intense emotional affiars with people if there aren't problems in the marriage. You need to look at that. I wanted to work on all of those problems that led to my affair, but my husband didn't. He forgave me for that, yet wants to continue like nothing happened. I can't. Something did happen and I never want to revisit where I was before the affair or after it. I don't have my dreamman anymore, but I know I can't go back to what was there before. The past several months have been the most sad and difficult times of my life. Did you profess your unconditional love to this other woman...if you did no wonder your wife is angry. I'm angry at myself for doing the same thing with the OM and doubly angry with him for saying it to me. I am truly sorry for the hurt I caused my spouse. I truly feel bad for you because I can truly empathize with your pain, but if it is your wife you love you owe it to yourself and her to do everything humanly possible to regain her trust. It won't be easy. You need to put the guilt aside; you can't change what you did, but you can mend things if you know in your heart saving your marriage is what you want. Only, you have the answer to that.<P>Lonelysoul <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMan:<BR><B>Well, I passed on the URL to my “I am the betrayer” post onto my wife and I’m sure she read it, but no comments yet. Some folks replied by trying get me to meet my wife’s ENs, but she is so hurt, she won’t let me get close. She prefers I come by and see the kids only when she is working (a couple of nights a week). Each day I realize what a louse I am. <P>I met with my counselor Tuesday and the meeting was good. He did ask me about suicide because he’s knows how mixed up I am. I’ve said I have fleeting thoughts of it, but only that. I ride a motorcycle and the occasional, yet inevitable, close call with a cage (car) has me sometimes thinking it’s not a bad way to go. She appears to be adamant about moving ahead without me. While she also attends counseling, she will not at this point attend marriage counseling with me. She feels there is no marriage to counsel. I have hurt her that much.<P>Part of my problem is the world of email. The OW and I enjoy writing, but I got sloppy, and my wife was basically computer illiterate, that was until my behavior changed. She then got motiviated and surprised me. She did some digging and found some damaging stuff. References to future plans, love letters, cybersex, the gamut... not a lot, but enough painful material. After resuming contact, I established more email addresses and got a little sloppy again. My wife was now even better at the keyboard. Since my employer is very security conscious, I have passwords for everything. In an effort to KISS (keep it simple stupid), I use only a couple of PWs, well she figured it out and found some more very hurtful letters. She now has quite a folder. She has inferred to my best friend’s wife that the marriage is over.<P>We all know the best way to work your way back into a happy marriage is to stop seeing the OW. Well, since my wife appears to be so strong in her conviction to move on without me, I don’t want to lose the OW, too. Then I will have nothing. No home, no family, no wife, no money and no dreamgirl. My wife feels that I am such a liar and if I am living away from home, how can I convince her that I’m not seeing the OW? I just open my mouth to let words out and I am lying. I don’t mind living away from home if I know there is an end in sight. I would like to get her to agree that if I stop seeing the OW, she would let me back in over a certain period of time, of course I have to convince her, but how? Someone suggested staying in my house but in separate rooms, I would love that. Being back in the house is really the only sure way I can beat the withdrawal. I need my wife there to help me beat it. Out on my own is a loser, the magnetism of the OW will overwhelm me. My wife just feels letting me back in and then having me pull put the same stunt again will severely hurt the kids, not to mention her. I agree. Even though I plead that I won’t, she doesn’t want to risk it with my track record. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... fool me three times... Again, I know the suggestion will be to stop seeing the OW, regardless, but how can I prove to my wife I have cut the ties if I am not at home? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<A HREF="http://www.retrouvaille.org" TARGET=_blank>www.retrouvaille.org</A> It's the only way you will really figure it out. We know from experience. The books here are a great start. But if you want to be proactive, do more than the reading and visit the site. Otherwise you'll stay stalled and your relationship will remain numb.

Cman:<P>Many of us have had this problem, where the spouse says forgive me, but it's all words and no action. This is what my H did to me, three times. I saw through him right from the beginning, that he really hadn't given her up and she was out there lurking just in case we ever had an argument or anything that would give him an excuse to go back to her. IT NEEDS TO BE A TOTAL SEPARATION, or there is no chance to reconcile with your wife. I suspect that is exactly how she feels. You need to get it through your skull too that she needs to be gone, you need to go through the withdrawal and NOT contact her because it hurts too much. These measures are the only way your wife is going to ever have reason to trust you again, because right now that is the problem she is having - trying to find ANY remote reason to trust you again. Trust is the only thing that your marriage is hanging on right now and that is what you have to restore. The babe needs to be GONE and your wife absolutely needs to know it.<P>Write the OW a letter with your wife's help and have it delivered by someone your wife can trust to deliver it. Unpassword your e-mails and don't get mad if she checks up on you, for many women it's what they need to do to convince themselves they can trust again. It may be a long time - so you have to be patient.<P>As for my H, had he done these things, we'd still be a family, but he only talked this and didn't take the actions he needed to to really keep us together to heal our marriage. He wanted to keep his ace in the hole, and I knew it. He now lives with her and sianara as far as I'm concerned. (However, I have evidence to suspect now that he has been cheating since the year we were married 13 years ago, so I'm better off that this happened and it all came to light).<P>Good luck, don't take your marriage for granted. You can't repair trust by having the stand by.

CMan, <BR>Thanks for sharing. Your comment about not wanting to be alone really got me. I think that's why my H took so long to give up his OW (1 yr). If only he had given her up right away & written her a letter so I knew for sure, the whole mess we went through could have been avoided. Why not? He seemed so strong at that time, and seemed like he knew exactly what he wanted (both). Sometimes I think I should have never been so nice to him then, I was so stupid!! And he tells me, no, it's exactly because I did do plan A that he's back. He said every little nice thing helped him see that I was really being nice, not just faking it so he'd come back (I was a real b**** before the ema - I gave myself to Christ just before discovery). Just remember - everything you do adds up <BR>Kallie