As genuine forgiveness of the betrayer by the betrayed is so significant to the betrayer to rebuilding, can such forgiveness be expected or given if some truths of the betrayers past are kept hidden? Much has been discussed but when, times visited, their relationship, etc still ambiguous.<BR>Your opinions and comments would be valued.

That is a very good question. One of which I would be interested in hearing opinions about as well. In my case, it seems I have had to forgive over and over again as lies are revealed along the recovery path. In retrospect I think many of the dishonest answers I have received through out the past year have been lies to protect me, lies to protect the fragil state of our rebuilding, lies to avoid confrontation. As each lie has been exposed I have had to forgive. As each lie has been revealed my trust level has been lowered, even with the forgiveness, even understanding why my H thought the lie was necessary. Open and honest communication is one of my top basic needs, but to get that from my H as we have traveled down this path I have either had to trap him, find evidence contrary to what he said, or steel myself to hear the truth, assuring him the whole time that I will not go balistic at the answer given. I have gotten the best results, it seems, when I approach the question with assurances that I can handle the answer as a friend would. By best results, I mean, a fight has not resulted, and he feels an unconditional acceptance from me. When I have caught him in a lie due to evidence he can no longer deny, and confront him angrily, he gets defensive, angry at my snooping and it all seems to result in a power struggle. The most recent incident being the picture cd I found. <P>There is another lie I wish to reveal, but plan to approach this one from the angle of acceptance and friendship. He slipped up in our conversation about the pictures the other night. As we were lying in bed talking I asked "Is this the last time we will be in bed together?" <BR> His response, "What would you do if it was?" <BR>My response was to give him a big spoon hug. He was laying on his side facing away from me. <BR>His response to my hug was a question, "How will you feel about giving me this hug now, if in two weeks we are fighting over property issues?" <BR> My response was "How will I feel tomorrow if you were killed in a plane crash tonight?<P>He then said the strangest thing. This is what has made me realize there is another lie to be uncovered. He said, " I can't be honest with you. It would hurt or you will get angry." <BR>I said, "Try me." <BR>He then said, "Did you call OW today?" <BR> When I said, "No,why?" he said, "The last time I was with OW we had virtually the same conversation and she did the same thing." I followed through on my promise and did not act hurt or get angry, simply made light of it saying maybe I should stop the hug before it jinxed our future together. <BR>His response, "Maybe you should." So I did.<P>Now as to the unrevealed lie.....According to my H the last time he was with OW was a week before I found out about her. Two weeks after discovery his work took him once again for a three day lay over in Hawaii where she lives. He promised before he left he was not going to see her, that she was afraid I would show up with a shot gun, or worse, her husband. He called again when he got there and reinterated that he was not going to see her. But the trip was extended an additional due, by his choice. He reassured me again when he got home that he had not seen her. Now, why would she ask, "Is this the last time we are going to be in bed together?" two weeks before I had learned of their realtionship? <BR>And....If I had been embroiled in a "love" affair and had at least one more opportunity to be with my lover before ending it for good, if I had been either one of them, there is no way I would have passed up the opportunity, particularily if the "spouse" had not shown up in the first day or two. I KNOW this has been a lie. <P>Now....do I want to stir up this can of worms now? <P>Well... not to know the truth. I already KNOW that. I have accepted the truth, even forgiven it, coz I really can understand that the temptation would be too great to resist. If I stir up this particular can of worms it would be simply to find out if my H feels comfortable NOW in being truthful to me. Can he TRUST me not to go ballistic and accept the fact that as his "best friend" I am capable of handling the truth. If he answers "truthfully" this time I have no intention to probe even one question further. I plan to simply thank him for his honesty and let him know that if he ever needs to share the feelings that last encounter evoked, then I am here for him.<P>Well, I went off the subject somewhat, didn't I? Don't even know if I addressed your question now. <P>Anyone who wants to suggest I handle this lie differently, please let me know. I have two more days to decide what to do.<P>Sorry this has been so long. I hope others will respond soon.<P>Beth

Depends on your definition of honesty, and depends on what the other person does with the information you give them. I have made a decision that my past is my own business, and that no one in my future has a "right" to know or judge my past life. They are perfectly within their rights to decide whether they want to spend time with me based on my current actions, but my past (meaning things that I did or happened to me before I met them) is off limits. I'm convinced that people who have a need to pry into my past do not have my best interests at heart. <P>I'm not sure if your question concerns the past concerning an affair within the marriage, or all things past.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 06, 2000).]

Thanks PilotsWife much of what you say are my concerns too. Lies to cover up lies are self destructive to a relationship. Truths may be hard to take but are often less awful than that which we think in our minds. Truths can be foundations to build on but lies wash away the dreams of building better. Many things denied by W. are so definite that the lie is obvious. Hidden truths impead the lier as much or more than the lied to.<P>Student, not to be disrespectful, but one of Harley's tenants for a healthy relationship is truth about the past, present and future activities. Truth cannot come back to haunt in the future.<P>"And the truth shall set you free" Martin Luther King

Ohhhhhhh, I'm gonna be a little different here, guys. You know my thinking's a little different sometimes. Rebuilding and forgiveness is such an individual thing.<P>Those of you who know me, know that Robert and I are in recovery. And except for a few little bumps, doing really well, I might add. We're loving and happy and I feel very secure in most every aspect of our relationship. And the little problems are working themselves out. PT is, of course, still a pain, but less and less of one. Even though she's trying so hard to cause trouble, she seems to have so little effect on us now. More of just a "roll your eyes" and ignore her kinda thing. Triggers are attacked when they come up. We've visited almost every place they went on our Friday night dates and had a great time. They're now OUR places. We've made big plans for a romantic weekend for the anni of d-day. And now when I think of that date, it's in anticipation of our trip away, NOT dread b/c that's when I found out. Same thing for the anni of the day he left.<P>I know, I know, Harley recommends full disclosure right away. And many people here seem to need that. I don't. Let me explain.<P>I know what happened in our lives before this affair. I know that Robert thought he loved someone else and left home. I know he moved in with her and lived there for months. I know they opened joint bank accounts, cell phone accounts, saw a lawyer about his adopting her child and made plans for marriage. I know they lived the intimate life of partners for at least a little while, although not the whole time, including physical and emotional intimacy. They went out, vacationed, did all the normal things that partners would do. Details? I've asked for none. Have no curiosity whatsoever. Not afraid, don't need the triggers, couldn't care less. Heck, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that they shared a life and everything that goes along with that. I've accepted that and decided to forgive.<P>So I did forgive. Myself for helping to allow our marriage to get to the point that something like this could happen. Him for making this bad decision instead of bringing his troubles to me. I've forgiven him for sharing a life with someone else. Period. Sure, things "pop up" in conversation. Some of them give me a twinge, but not many. Most just seem like the distant past and don't affect me at all. None of them devastate me. None have even made me cry a single tear. And I know that they'll continue to come up 'cause we're talking and comfortable doing so. But I realized early on that all these things that come up are simply part of sharing a life with someone. And I've already dealt with that, right?<P>Letting him bring things up as they come up without falling apart has made things so much easier for us. And it's no trouble for me, either. Heck, they shared a life. I am not so naive to believe that they shared this...but not that! So it's all included in my feeling of forgiveness. No five hundred questions (surprisingly enough, I don't really HAVE any questions), no flashes of betrayal when something comes up. It's all included in what I forgave him for.<P>He's apologized. Millions of times. And yes, they made me feel better. Don't need them anymore, though. He says it now b/c HE needs to. Now we're spending more time working on helping him to forgive himself. I've moved past most everything.<P>I'm concentrating on our present and our future. The past is just that...something to learn from so that we avoid the same mistakes, not something to relive or belabor. Wish it hadn't happened. It did. Can't change it. But we CAN change today and tomorrow and that's what we intend to do. He's doing more than his part. I'm doing mine. And part of mine is forgiving, letting go, trusting him and concentrating on what we have now, what we want tomorrow, not those things that we can't do anything about.<P>Got pretty wordy again, didn't I???? Sorry. Bad habit. Like I said, it's an individual thing. Details don't matter to me. Don't need to hear, don't really affect me much when I do. MY forgiveness doesn't depend on knowing the details. It just doesn't.<P>Another .02.<P>Lori

I guess I'll add a little more difference to the mix. I understand Lori's point. She's smart enough to figure out what went on without the details and doesn't need them.<P>Many affairs are different from the one Lori experienced. Often the betrayer doesn't leave for the other person and never wants to. They don't want to lose their spouse, so they try to downplay the truth about the affair. The betrayer will often deny any physical or emotional involvement, and will continue to lie and hide the truth.<P>In cases like this, true forgiveness can be very hard. If my husband had admitted an emotional affair and asked for forgiveness, I would have given it. But would that forgiveness have covered the physical part of the affair? I don't think so. How can you forgive something you don't know about? Can you really just give a "blank check" for forgiveness? I certainly can't.<P>Knowing the truth is different from knowing the details. In my opinion honesty is required for true forgiveness, but every little detail is not required.<P>Differing opinions welcomed, however.<P>Peppermint

Hey, Peppermint. Had our situation been different, you're right, I'd have felt very differently, too.<P>Certain information would've been important to me. Had an affair, physical/emotional, how long, when did it start, when was it over, where'd you meet each other, do you see her anymore? IS it truly over? I don't think I could move on w/out that. Other details, well, you know, back to rocket science again...and my amazing lack of curiostity!!! <P>You've made a really good point.<P>Lori<P>

My opinion on this subject is that there can never be complete trust in a relationship after an affair. No matter what anyone else says, being forgiven, doesn't make you trustworthy to the betrayed spouse. I think also that even if the betrayer does tell the betrayed everything about their OP, that the betrayed will still wonder if they were really ever told everything...<P>I don't think that there is one betrayed person here who can say that they will ever truly and sincerely trust the spouse that betrayed them even after they have forgiven them and gotten their marriage back on track. <P>There is always going to be that little voice in the back of their head whenever they see a strange number on the caller ID, or when their spouse is going to be away from them for a time. <P>Oh sure... they can fight it...and try to tell themselves that they have trust... but they will always be suspicious... and should the betrayed be honest and tell the spouse that the doubt is still there? Even after years have passed?<P>Confusing....

Hi LooksGood -<P>What an excellant thread!!!<P>I would like to take another twist with this...<P>I believe that forgiveness has nothing to do with the betrayer....not really!<P>Forgiveness is a gift that the person forgiving gives to themselves...for their own reasons. <P>To forgive is a choice.....to understand and have compassion for another person in order to have internal peace and strength OR to live in the emotional chaos and have a heardened heart.<P>To forgive is not to forget....quite the contrary!!! To forgive is to have REALLY looked at the overall situation and remembered what led to it, analized all the factors and created changes that lead to your growth from it.<P>That leads to the honesty portion of the question posed.....can you forgive if you don't have all the facts?<P>Well, since forgiveness is really about where the "forgiver" wants to be and what they can control - then the answer is Yes!! <P>We cannot confuse forgiveness with the idea that all is said and done about the situation....it does not mean that the problems are gone, or the incident is settled. All it means is that the forgiver is in a good place to face whatever lies ahead. <P>Can the betrayer be forgiven without honesty?.....has more to do with How the betrayer will be able to forgive - themselves - when they know that they are not being honest. It is their choice!!!<P>When we get to problems of lies - whether they are past or present...it is more of a Trust issue than a Forgiveness issue. <P>If the forgiver has truly forgiven - <P>It means that they have put their emotions in a place to be able to Handle all the other issues - such as Trust and Honesty, Failures and Triumphs, Weakness and Support, etc.<P>It means that they are willing to work with and help the person they care about through the situation.<P>It is not dependant on this or that....<BR>(ie: lies popping up or failures, etc.) <BR>What the other person does with their end of the situation is only under their control - not ours!!!!<P>I know that I am not explaining this as well as I want to.....I hope you understand it a bit better anyway!!<P>Hugs, <P>Sheba

I understood you, Sheba.<P>Very good thread. Very valid points. And like lostva said, - it is an individual situation.<P>And Sheba, you are right also - forgiveness given does not have conditions. And we agree that forgetting isn't always part of the forgiveness.<P>Offering multiple forgiveness, one time forgiveness, but not forgetting - I think is fine.<P>But the continued dishonesty is something else. We can make excuses for the lying, justify, etc. - but forgiveness does not require us to continue to be in a position to be burned over and over and over again - like with lying.<P>We can forgive, we don't have to forget, but it is OKAY to set boundaries that prevent us from continuing to be hurt again and again and again. If the person who receives unmerited forgiveness - (without conditions) - continues to exhibit unremorseful behavior (continued lying), then I think the forgiver should start thinking about boundaries - to prevent the person from continuing their dishonesty.<P>When we forgive, it is like offering a credit to the account. The account was in a negative balance, you credit the account with forgiveness - and it is out of the red.<P>You don't have to continue to run it in the red, and you don't have to keep crediting the account. I think it would be better to close the account than it would be to keep it open for more overdrafts. <P>It is truly up to the "forgiver" to decide how often they will continue to credit the account. At some point, it is better to do a final credit - and close the account.<P>I think it is our job to communicate responsibly boundaries - to forwarn gently what those boundaries are - and what the consequences are. <P>Sorry - I went off on a tangent - like Sheba so eloquently put it: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that I am not explaining this as well as I want to.....I hope you understand it a bit better anyway!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>

This is not an easy question. I agree with what everyone said but I have a few twists to it.<P>Primarily, I think forgiveness is for the forgiver. Actually giving it provides the forgiver a sense of freedom and compassion. It removes the burden of anger from the forgivers life. HOWEVER, this kind of forgivenss does not necessarily have to be spoken. It is reflected to the external world by behavior. It provides internal benefit and relief.<P>It is possible to have this kind of foregiveness of a betrayer that continues to lie, or one that doesn't show remorse, but I'm not convinced that it's a basis for a good ongoing relationship. Really, to forgive someone like this is more like a reduction of expectations - sort of like "well, I know you're a liar and nothing you say can be trusted. I just accept that so it doesn't bother me anymore. I know it's about you, not me, an it's just how you are.". It can get to the point that it doesn't bother you - but can you be married to a person in that state?<P>It is my belief that if people are living together in the state of marriage, and that they desire trust, love, and intimacy in that relationship, then they have to be honest to the level of satisfaction of the betrayed (this level varies WIDELY, as lostva pointed out). I personally don't think there's a way around this. It does my marriage no good to forgive my husband for ongoing lying and a continuing affair. I may not hold anger towards him, but it sure doesn't make him good husband material. It's just not good enough.

Distressed -<P>You're right forgiveness is for the forgiver.....<P>I don't see where it plays a part in whether the "relationship" continues or not, too much.<P>All the things - like trust, boundaries, lying, acceptance or excuses are separate issues!!!!!<P>Take my situation...H's issues, cheating, lying, etc....etc...<P>Do I Forgive him? Absolutely!!!<P>Do I accept his behavior - NO WAY!!<P>Does my not accepting his behavior effect my forgiveness of him.....NO!!<P>It's like any other situation...if you have a child on drugs....you love the child/hate the actions, right?<P>You can forgive the child but not accept their actions as the final result....<P>Forgiveness is not trust or acceptance!! You do not forgive anyone's actions/habits/words in and of itself....you forgive the overall imperfection and realize those imperfections are to be worked on with compassion and understanding.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited April 07, 2000).]

I believe that for God to forgive us, we have to ask specifically for the sin we want forgiven. If that's the case, shouldn't it be so with people? I know in my situation, I've told every detail I can think of. I don't think the OM has done so with his wife, and it makes me doubt his repentance. When you're caught up in a situation that is so wrong, the truth is ugly and painful, but my husband has told me over and over, he would rather hear the truth now from me than someday down the road from the OM or someone else. I just believe that total honesty is required for total forgiveness to be given!

Looksgood,<BR>I'm not a Harley worshiper. I believe alot of the things he says, but not all.<P>My past will not haunt me in the future. You said the "truth will set you free", but that is only if I believed I am imprisoned. I think the person who feels compelled to know about my past is the one who is imprisoned. They are looking back to a shadow of a person who no longer exists (the past) so that they can pretend to know my future. It is a huge waste of my time, and their time as well. But , ya know, alot of people simply don't want to do the work to observe people right now. Most people would prefer that others came with little recipe cards so they don't have to think much. Again, maybe convenient for them, but a big waste of time for me. <P>I didn't answer your question though about forgiveness.<P>I think forgiveness is a gift somebody gives themselves. The betrayed decides they don't want to live with hate and anger the rest of their lives, and eventually forgives. The betrayer decides they don't want to live in guilt and shame the rest of their lives, and eventually forgives themselves. So, either person's actions are irrelevant. Now, there is probably an easy-easier-easiest choice of paths to forgiveness for both spouses, but it is not dependent on the other person.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 07, 2000).]

All excellent points, both those I agree with and those I find counter to my own philosophy. Smedes in his book "The Art of Forgiving" is in agreement with us all that know that forgiving is as much or more benefit to the forgiver. One statement in the book I think is very relevent to this thread.<P>"Forgiving is honest about the price of reunion. I may forgive you in my heart and free myself from the hatered of you, but before I rejoin you as my friend, I demand a price from you. The price is honesty. The currency of honesty is remorse and conversion. And there is no reunion unless the price is paid."<P>He goes on to say: "Forgiving is the only way to get ouselves free from the trap and unfair pain, forgiving is not even possible unless we own the painful truth of what happened to us."<P>Basically unless we own the truth, we cannot forgive. How can we own the truth if in its place we are given false information about the past?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LooksGood:<BR><B>As genuine forgiveness of the betrayer by the betrayed is so significant to the betrayer to rebuilding, can such forgiveness be expected or given if some truths of the betrayers past are kept hidden? Much has been discussed but when, times visited, their relationship, etc still ambiguous.<BR>Your opinions and comments would be valued. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am answering this purely from a Christian perspective. If Jesus truly is living His life through you, the answer is an UNEQUIVOCAL <B>YES</B>. Even then it will be hard. I can attest to that because I have endured 8 affairs that I know of. The last one she told me that now she knows what real love is. I beg to differ because God is love and He ain't included in what she has done. Love has to include Him. If God ain't included then it is the emotional/feeling part of love. But without God the emotional/feeling part is purely LUST. Lust feels exactly like love but is not love because God is not part of it.<P>Society has glamourized the feeling rather than galmourizing the commitment which is the true sign of love. Love is when you are willing to suffer because one can't see clearly. I know because God is using me to show my W His love. I love her dearly because God has taught me how to love her. <P>It is a good thing that He has taught me how to love her because there have been days when I wanted to leave but through reading His word I realize that He has blessed each of us with each other. I am blessed with her because I have grown much closer to Him which I get more joy with each new day. I know He is working on her as well. She doesn't see it yet.<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

<P>"The betrayer decides they don't want to live in guilt and shame the rest of their lives, and eventually forgives betrayer decides they don't want to live in guilt and shame the rest of their lives, and eventually forgives themselves. So, either person's actions are irrelevantvant." <P>No way. this is not how it happens. I have yet to forgive myself for what i have done to myself, my family, my husband, my children, my soul, my relationship with God! My H has forgiven me. Period. This is something I am definetly working towards but it is not here yet. But I do not feel guilty and cannot live with unforgivenss of any sort?!<P><BR>"I don't think that there is one betrayed person here who can say that they will ever truly and sincerely trust the spouse that betrayed them even after they have forgiven them and gotten their marriage back on track. <P>There is always going to be that little voice in the back of their head whenever they see a strange number on the caller ID, or when their spouse is going to be away from them for a time. "<P><BR>I know that for 2 years we worked on our marriage. AND EVERYTIME there was a weird call or weird tracks into our drive, IF I was late even 2 minutes, I had to explain and he was so suspicious. And as far as I was concerned, OM was out of my life forever. (Or at least I had him and almost my self convinced of the fact). I saw a show once where there were couples who had made it through infidelity and they said, the relationship is never the same. You never really fully trust your spouse again. I can certainly understand that.<P>Anyway, forgiveness needs to come on both parts so that healing can begin. You cannot begin healing if you are still so angry and hurt and annoyed with your partner or yourself.<P><BR>"Forgiveness is not forgetting. Forgetting may be the result of forgiveness, but it is never the means of forgiveness. When we bring up the past against others, we are saying we haven't forgiven them.<P>You do not forgive someone for their sake; you do it for your sake so you can be free. Your need to forgive isnt an issue between ayou and the offender' it is between you and God. Forgiveness is agreeing to live with the consequences of another person's sin. forgivness is costly. YOu pay the price of the evil you forgive. You are going to live with the consequences whether you want to or not, your onlly choiceis whether you will do so in the bitterness of unforgiveness or the freedon of forgiveness.<P>How do you forgive from your heart? You acknowledge the hurt and hate. do not wait until you feel like forgiving' you will never get there. Feelings take time to heal after the couice to forgive is made and Satan has lost his place. Freedon is what will be gained, not a feeling." <P>*freedom in christ workbook* <P>So you see, in order to be free from all the hurt and hate, you must forgive. for your own healing to begin! <P><BR>Mercy<BR>

After all that has been expressed here...I think forgiveness comes in stages. I do believe that you have to let go of the pain and anquish...but each person has their own time line. <P>I know that a big part of my healing has been watching my H realize who he is and break down his own inner barriers.<BR> It has also been very important to me to know the TRUTH. It is a part of my healing process. As Pilot's Wife wrote about her H's continued half truths... "lies to protect me, lies to protect the fragil state of our rebuilding, lies to avoid confrontation". This has always been how my H's family dealt with things...it was how he grew up. H has realized that he cannot protect himself from my hurt...because I hurt anyway. Those actions, if they continued would only increase my inability to not TRUST him...and thus...not be able to know everything for that which I need to relinquish by forgiving. <BR>Trust and forgiveness are somewhat intertwined in my mind. <P>What I mean about the Forgiveness in stages and believing in/trusting the rebuilding process...As the betrayed, I can forgive my H not knowing himself, growing up within a dysfunctional family/marriage (and not knowing what it really takes to make things work), for not understanding what really makes people "Happy", and not dealing well with all the multiple stresses we encountered prior to his poor choice. I know he thought he was losing me. For all of that (and more) I have forgiven him.<P>Forgiving myself was hard...I don't blame myself for his poor choice and there were things going on I wasn't able to control...which I acknowledge. Forgiveness of myself...my role, in H's poor choice, was a big step to our rebuilding. I have worked on my end of the deal and still do my homework. But, I know that bad times may still come and I trust that we now have the skills to deal with it all. <P>I agree with Sheba's comment,"To forgive is not to forget....quite the contrary!!! To forgive is to have REALLY looked at the overall situation and remembered what led to it, analized all the factors and created changes that lead to your growth from it."<P>The last stage of forgiveness in my mind is the broken commitment to myself and God that my H commited. As Mercy wrote, "Forgiveness is agreeing to live with the consequences of another person's sin.". I can live with the details, the truth of my H's selfish desires to prove things to himself, and the actions he committed out of guilt and shame. <BR>But, I still am not able to "forgive him" for committing a SIN. I think he needs to confront God on his own and work that out. (For now, it is enough to know he truly loves me and is trying his hardest for me,our family, and himself.) <P>I hope by sharing my story, it will help you as much as reading your opinions have helped me. (the tangents help too!)<P>I appreciate this discussion on Forgiveness and Trust. I believe that when we approach this topic...it shows we are on the right track for rebuilding our marriages. I feel sorry for those that are too angry or numb to even consider pondering the issues!<P>For those that are committed to actively exploring these issues with their spouses do visit the <A HREF="http://www.Retrouvaille.org" TARGET=_blank>www.Retrouvaille.org</A> web site. The program is phenomenal! (It really is devoted to couples from all religious backgrounds. And, not everyone who attends, starts out determined to "heal"...but you will leave knowing you understand yourself and your spouse 100+% better!)<P>

Mercy,<P>My ex-H didn't forgive me. My point was that I need to forgive myself regardless of what my ex decided to do. His decision to forgive, or not, is irrelevant to me because no amount of forgiveness on his part would have been felt by me if I could not eventually forgive myself. This is something he could not do for me. It is only something I could do myself. <P>I too believe that a price must be paid in order to earn a place back into someone's life. I tried to do that for over a year with my ex, but it was not good enough. He could never trust me again, according to him.<P>Most would say that is a consequence of my actions, however, my ex has consequences to pay too. He has never addressed his part in the breakdown of our marriage. I've already paid the price. His price is yet to come, IMO, for choosing to stay ignorant about the state of our marriage prior to my affair. <P>I'll add what I always add when I say things like this....I do not hold my ex-H responsible for my choice to cheat. I do hold him 50% responsible for the breakdown in our marriage.<P>Also, my previous statements should not be construed as meaning that I choose to lie about my past. Should someone ask me about things that happened before I met them, I will politely tell them that I don't think it (my past) is relevent to my present, and that I will not discuss it. Furthermore, I will tell them that if it is extremely important for them to know my past then they can choose to spend time with someone else. I am happy to be completely honest about anything and everything in my present or future. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 09, 2000).]