Thank you for taking the time to try and explain to me your thoughts. I think they make sense and might even be possible for me to follow up on as you seem to have turned a light on in my head. Something not easily done so be proud! LOL<P>May I get some further info from you which may lend to a greater understanding of what it is you are saying in the other thread. You wrote:<P>When you accept this as a fact, it may become easier for you to really be his "best friend" through his withdrawal. In the meantime, don't just react...ACT. Pull out all stops and put your own needs aside for a while, up to a year or longer! It can be done. If his affair was for as long as two years, his withdrawal could easily take that long, but won't happen at all (he will seek her out again) if there is not a safe, lovinging, accepting and FUN place for him to recover!<P>You also wrote that he will not never love the OW because in his deluded mind there was nothing wrong with her. And now that he is in withdrawal and unable to contact her, she is not in a position to LB.<P><BR>1. Since D-day, the OW and I have had a couple of ugly rounds of discussion which my H is aware of. And he has stated that he didn't like what he heard, regarding what the OW said to me.<BR> He also has a list of things that he already knew for himself prior to D-day that he didn't like about her. <BR> So it's not that he doesn't see a single thing wrong with her, but rather that he doesn't look at it. He only takes an interest in her good side.<BR> When he knows there IS a "bad side" why is it unreasonable for me to expect him to take note of it and give it some weight during this withdrawal?<P>2. When you wrote he will not never love the OW...did you say this because he has not yet withdrawn from her--suggesting that once he finally does, only then will he be able to stop loving her?<BR> I honestly don't see myself able to continue this marriage if I have to accept that he will always love her, even once his ends his fantasy. <BR> I feel I can accept, with great pain, that he loves her now with the condition that he is working towards changing those feelings he has for her and for me, as well. But an open-ended acceptance of his undying love for her...that's really asking far too much of me at this point and so I need to really understand if this is what is needed.<P>3. About the delivery of my baby, he said today he wanted to be there for me but I can't bring myself to accept this. I want to do it on my own. Is that a LB? He doesn't enjoy the birthing process at all, he would only be there for me. As much as the loving side of me wants him there, the hurt side of me is much stronger right now and I just can't imagine after what he has done to me allowing him to help me in this way. <BR> When this affair first began I was also pregnant so I know all too well what it is like to deliver under these conditions. I did not know the affair was ongoing when I delivered, I thought it had ended.<BR> Since that particular delivery, I had a second baby, conceived and delivered during our recovery from his affair, again, I was still unaware that the affair had not ended at all. But the whole time I was pushing I kept thinking how I was so hurt still by his having had the affair..don't ask me why this was on my mind at that time...I think because I was so needy of him for support and knowing in my heart he had hurt me as he did...it put me in a very difficult and desperate spot.<BR> Naturally, I'm in that same spot again but with much worse "baggage". He still loves her more than me and the last two years are filled with such pain now that I know all of his "goodness" was in order to cover up his double life. And the conception of these babies are being held against me as a method of tricking him into remaining married to me...when I didn't even know he was having the affair in the first place...but the OW planted these seeds in his head...so if I didn't know the affair existed, why in the world would I trick him?<BR> I don't want to push him away but I don't want to let him too far in right now either. Labor and delivery is an experience like no other and I've always had a sense of being completely vulnerable during such an experience. I'm really not sure if I'm up to having him by my side given how hurt I already am...and to be laying there delivering his baby, completely vulnerable, looking in his eyes and KNOWING it isn't me his heart belongs to but her, I just don't think I can do that.<P>I'm sorry this was so long. Back in 1997 my H and I worked with this site as well for our counseling needs. He lied the whole time about it all as he was still having the affair and though I had thought it all ended on a happy note, me having reached a point of forgiving him and him having changed as well...I guess I can't see through the trees right now about all this Plan A stuff. Plan A allowed him to continue his relationship with her. He said as much. Because I didn't act hurt enough so he figured he could get away with it. But now it seems Plan A is my only way to get him back while he is still dillusional. Is this right? And it's only after the dillusion stops that I can expect him to see the OW for all she really is, good and the bad? After the dillusion I can only then expect him to experience a sense of guilt and shame and remorse? My need for these things now is unrealistic because he is still dillusional?<P>Thank you for reading and thank you so much for your reply from the last thread. You have really been very helpful to me.<P>And now I have to go look up my old thread and see what NSR was referring to that I perhaps was unable to see when I initially got the replies. Thank you again.<P> <P>[This message has been edited by Is there hope? (edited April 08, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Is there hope? (edited April 08, 2000).]

Oh, here it is..<P>Must have been posting it while I was reading the other.<P>Ok, some tough questions here and some that I have little immediate reaction to, but I will try.<P>Aboout the "Never not love" statement....<BR>Think back on one of your old high school sweet hearts. Is there still love there? Do you have fond memories? Was there one in particular that you may have fantasized about seeing again when things have not been right in your current relationship? It is in this way that you H's love will never die. It will not have the importance it has now, will not threaten your marriage, unless YOU let it. Because the threat would not be to something that is real, but more to something that is thought by you. By that I mean...( I will try to get this across, read between the lines if possible) You, like so many of us romantics, may have this idea that a marriage SHOULD follow the guidelines as presented in Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty. When the "one true love" comes there will be room in his heart for me alone. His love will be sooooooo strong and overpowering, he will be able to see no other. I will be his (yech) soul-mate. If there is another in his heart then his love for me is not true and my expectation and definition of what "true love" is becames threatened. Your H (and mine) has already blown this romatic notion out of the water, yet we cling to the idea of it's validity because it represents part of the way we have been conditioned to think. I have CHOSEN to accept the fact that my H will always have a special place in his heart for the OW and by doing so have let go of an unrealistic notion that would be impossible for ANY ONE to meet. The result, somewhat (we are still working on this part) is that my H has been able to share with me, at times, his feelings about missing the OW, some of the things that happened between them, that make him react to things between us the way he does, etc. I have been more able to put on my "friend" hat and be there for him as such without rejecting him. It is not always easy. I screw up and LB upon occasion, but when I can keep the friend hat on when needed I know open and honest communication is more likely to happen, and that is one of my major needs. Friends don't keep secrets from each other. (This may be a Pinoccio notion, but I will deal with that when it becomes a problem ).<P>My H has shared with me, as you state your has you, that there were/are things about the OW that rubbed him wrong. Things about the relationship that never would have panned out positively in the long run. That he has said these things to me is the only indication I have been given that any thought has been given to those ugly aspects of OW in his decision to work on OUR relationship. If I were to dwell on the negatives he has shared, I know he would go into defensive mode and downplay the importance of the negatives in the overall picture. ( Hey, I want him to downplay the negatives in OUR relationship if someone were to attack it!) Again, rather than him defend the OW to me, or anyone else I much prefer the prospect of him defending me, and for him to feel stongly justified in "defending" me there must be things about me he really enjoys, likes, feels safe with, has fun with...etc. Therefore the need for PLAN A.<P>Only you can decide what is "too much" to expect from yourself in the way of acceptance of his behavior. If to look at a long range acceptance of his "love" for the OW to be given forever, as an impossibility, then it will be. It will be impossible because it will flavor your actions and reactions toward him NOW, making the chances for recovery all that more ellusive. His love for her can take on different values, less threatening ones for you, only if his love for you grows. That is simplyfying so try to read between the words. <P>Gosh, I wish someone else would pipe in about now. Anyone else see it this way?<P>Now, about the previouse babies....Can't address that issue from experience, but will try to offer something maybe helpful.<P>hmmmmmmm.<P>uhhhhhh.<P>shoot.<P>gosh, I don't know.....<P>How much time do you have before the baby is to be born?<P>How many years has this been going on? 3 babies in as many years? When you were in recovery as the second child was conceived and delivered how was your relationship over all? Were you aware of the "basic needs" stuff then? And if so, or if not, were those needs being addressed between you? (Something must have been going on at least in the sexual fulfillment area. ) What kind of dad is he now? Is his behavior toward the children meeting your need for family support? <P>About him being with you for this birth....<BR>Won't you think some of those painful thoughts about "what he has done to you" whether he is there or not? Maybe even more so if he is not. His offer to be there for you, particularly if he does not "enjoy" the birthing process (heck, who does really? It hurts!) in his mind is a way to extend himself toward you, to be there for you. You reject his offer, you reject him.<P>Unfortunately, this time, which should be so happy for you both, is loaded with triggers and I really am not qualified to help you deal with them all! It may boil down to the question "How badly do you want your marriage to work, to grow beyond these past painful years, and what are you willing to do to KNOW beyond a doubt that you gave it your best effort? There may be a lot more work needed here than I am able to address.<P>I am not giving up, here. I see hope. But I am going to step back and think for a bit and give others opportunities to muddy the waters further. I am so sorry you have to go through all this. It sucks eggs. Try to focus on staying peacefull and loving. Try to make decisions from the loving place in you, not the fearful or angry places. The loving place is the only one that is real.<P>with love,<P>Beth<P>P.S. where is your home? In europe?

Thank you for your thoughts once again. Wow, this "reality" hurts really bad. So if I'm understanding things correctly...just as the love my H and I have for eachother changes over the years, hopefully for the better, his love for the OW will also change, given enough time, and I can win his heart back?<P>He told me that he loves her more than me. If his love for her is able to change, does this mean I have a chance at being loved more than she?<P>How do you handle your H's love for this other woman? I mean, you nailed me exactly about this "romantic" theory for love. I jsut can't imagine being a good enough friend to not burst into tears hearing him talk about missing her. My heart nearly jumped out of my chest when he told me he was wanting to call her but hadn't. You are very strong. I wish you could explain how you step in as a "friend" and maintain that composure. <P>I can't honestly say that I love anyone other than my H, though I thought I loved others before he came into my life. But these "others" do have special memories... but I wouldn't call it love or say that they occupy a space in my heart. Moreso my memory bank!<P>You are right, that I need to approach him from the loving place within me. You are also right that I need to let him be there (the delivery) for me for HIS sake. I just don't know how to do either of these right now. (I'm due within the month-I think you asked.) <P>Back in 97 when his affair began -and I thought ended- I went through all this Plan A stuff, the loving place was how I approached him, and even the birthing process was a shared experience for the sake of our marriage...and all these things were indicators to him that he could hurt me and be quickly forgiven...and so he chose to return to her as I had just shown him I would "get over it". Though I was far from over it but for him, the worst of my wrath had passed. So it was smooth sailing from there on. <P>He "worked" very diligently with me on the questionaires for needs and LB's that MB has available. Read lots of stuff I printed up. Agreed on the Openness and Honesty policy as well as the Policy of Joint AGreement. I mean, he jumped through all the hoops for me. Made real effort to show he was changing...except all the while he was falling in love with her. A month after the baby was born they were telling eachother they loved one another. And about the time the next baby was born, they'd already planned to marry. But because I got pregnant, they couldn't break the news to me. And then when I got pregnant again, once again their plans had to be postponed.<P>I live in an Arab country. Don't want to say which one exactly...never know who else is in the forum that would pick up on this! I've learned that lots of the women are having the same problem as me in these countries...that their husbands are taking a second wife. The religion, Islam, allows it, this is true, up to 4 wives actually, but it is only under certain conditions, one of which is with the consent of the first wife. Which is what makes this all so unbelievable to me because I told him back in 1997 he had to choose between her and me and he chose me...obviously he didn't but that was what he'd said.<P>So now I'm making him choose again. I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong last time so I don't do it again this time. I think "letting go" is the best thing overall that I can do. Did you see the verse written on that? It's quite nice. Quite true, too.<P>I gave birth to a baby in 97, another 98 and now 2000. Just prior to the 97 birth the affair started and "ended" just days before the actual day of the birth. It was rekindled only weeks later and has continued on ever since.<P>H says he still loves me, he's just happier with me by having her in his life as well. This is how he was able to go about and act like all was well...he had all he wanted and needed. <P>Yes we did discuss basic needs. He didn't include his need for her or any other woman at that point. Basically, what we discussed were lies, though I didn't know it until just recently. <P>I've made many comments to him during this time, 97 to present, indicating that I knew something was not quite right, even accused him of having a side of him I knew nothing about. So, although things were good between us and he allowed me to believe we'd overcome yet another obstacle in our marriage, I could tell something was not quite right but never suspected he was having an affair. Much less with the same woman.<P>He's a pretty good father. Not American style but for his culture, he's probably the best father I've seen. Is it meeting my "needs"...never thought about it that way. More I think of whether or not he is meeting the needs of the children. The answer is no. <P>Because I've been through all these motions before, and he misread what it all meant, I'm scared to death to allow myself to do it again. I mean, this man is almost deaf, dumb and blind the way he acts sometimes. He can't express himself, doesn't hear what I say but interprets it to mean something completely different, and doesn't see what is before him! So even if I explain why I am being nice to him, or whatever, he will misinterpret it despite what I say. <P>But I guess that is part of the letting go I've not mastered yet...allowing him to make his own mistakes and not taking control of the situation but letting the natural consequences occur. Yeah, that is REALLY hard to do. This feels more like de ja vu (however it should be spelled.) Lots of things I can say "been there, done that"<P>So I need to move past the fear and figure out how. I need to accept his feelings for this woman...my God, when hell freezes over is probably how long it will take to do that. If you have any clues on how to do either of these, I would sure appreciate it. I'm open to suggestions I really am!<P>Thanks so much for sharing all of this with me. I'm starting to see the light but am still uneasy about what it is that I'm seeing exactly. God knows I really am trying though.<P>and you are as well! So thank you again!

Gosh, I wish someone else would jump in here with some ideas! Your situation is more complicated than I first thought. You said you live in an Arab country, but you are not Arab. Are you American? Was he raised in a Western tradition or the one most common in his country? When you married was there a clear understanding between the two of you that you would not go for the multiple wife thing? There must be a lot of cultural differences you have to deal with. He, apparently, has been raised his whole life expecting that it will take more than one relationship to meet all his needs. And in ways that is true for all of us, we need different types of relationships to fill the different gaps in our lives, but the traditional stance for Americans at least, is that there is to be only one marriage/sexual relationship, and that that one is to satisfy the majority of needs. <P>You say he is trying to totally withdraw from the OW now. Is that right or has he just moved out to honor your request to do so until he has totally ended it with her. Are you in a Plan B with him continuing to see/be with her? Does she live close by or has it been a long distance relationship for him? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to get a better picture of the situation. <P>If he is truly trying to get her totally out of his system, I don't see how being separate from you will help. You need to be together to Plan A adequately. But you say you have been there, done that... YECH. This really stinks. <P>I don't really know what else to say at this point. I hope someone else will give it some thought and pipe up. Be true to yourself as best you can without lovebusting and really give some careful thought to what you can live with. And.......maybe stay on BC pills for a while after #3 is born, at least until you have a better idea of where your marriage is going.<P>Beth