Big friggin' deal!!!! It was a joke!!!! Chrissie has made it very clear to me that she wants to revive her marriage and work things out. She has been absolutely steadfast in her decision, even when I was trying to be "personal". She e-mails jokes to everyone!! I really see no big deal here!!! She is not trying to hang on to anything...believe me I've tried to make her hang on, and it's just not going to happen!! I guess now I sound like a schmuck again, but c'mon, let a dying horse lay where it falls. The problem is not with Chrissy!! It is with me OK? Why do I feel the need to protect, or stand up for her? Because she is being true to her commitment of working on her marriage!! I couldn't get her to talk to me this last week, so all I can say is she is being honest much more than I am. Leave her out of the equation now, alright? I am embarrased to admit that she is stronger than I in her resolve to re-commit herself to her spouse, but for now it's true. So why don't we let her be. I know that you've all said that any contact is bad contact, but how can it be bad when she has no desire to get back in a relationship with me? It isn't making it any harder for me to see a joke in my e-mail. She sent it at my work e-mail, not at my home e-mail. I forwarded it to myself so I could pass it on to friends, and that is where Nicole saw it. It seems like there is just no saving me here. I don't seem to be able to just let go. Is it withdrawal, or surrender? Am I giving up? All I ask is that Nicole leave Chrissy out of the "trying to maintain contact" area.<p>[This message has been edited by Being a better Arik (edited December 04, 1999).]

Arik,<P>I understand that you know Chrissie far better than anyone else on this forum, so you know how steadfast she may be... there's just one thing kinda buggin' me about her sending you an email... why? Why hasn't she taken your email address out of her list of names to send jokes to? If she's so steadfast, then it seems a trifle weird. Could it possibly be that she still has feelings for you? I think it's very possible. That's what Nicole's worried about.<P>Also, does her husband know you were included in that joke email? And if so, what does he think about that? Chances are he's not feeling so great about it, just like Nicole.<P>I understand the point you are trying to make... but I'm asking you to try to step out of your own shoes and into Nicole's. See things from her perspective. She's in very real danger of losing you! Any little thing from Chrissie is a HUGE threat to her. Even an email joke. It means she thought about you. She made concious decision to send that email joke. Can you see how Nicole would be threatened by that? I hope so. You can't minimize ANY contact. It doesn't matter if you think it's nothing. It's <I>not</I> nothing because <I>Nicole</I> doesn't think it's nothing.<P>Also, you think just because Chrissie is steadfast now, she's always going to be steadfast? My OW was very steadfast as well. I thought that all these months she was completely over me and getting on with her life, then out of the blue last Monday I got an email saying she wished she could see me. It's not out of the realm of possibilities that Chrissie would attempt to become close again.<P>Hope you don't take offense. I'm just trying to get you to see how Nicole views this.<P>--andy

No offence taken Andy, at all. Thanks for the reply. I'm sure the only reason Chrissy e-mailed it to me was she thought I would think it was funny. Does her husband know about it? I'm not sure. There won't be any reason whatsoever to have contact with her until after the new year, so I hope this makes Nicole feel a little better. Maybe I'm being too sensitive about HER sensitivity. I don't know.....

Hi Arik -<P>First off - calm down a little OK?<P>You and Nicole both have your emotions running on high.....the flame needs to be turned down so some cool heads can prevail here!!<P>Look, everything that is happening with you two is all part of the process of infidelity.....it's going to take a while for both of you to get some perspective on what is the bottom line of what is happening.<P>My main concern with you is since the here and now roller coaster is being covered with your posts so far.....I think some attention should be given to what compelled you to pursue someone in the first place....<P>So, Arik - what was the deal? Why did you start on this path?<P>Can we take a look at that.....for that is where your decision to bring this situation about began and it should be taken full circle to see what the REAL problem is between you and Nicole!!!<P>Cuz believe me the OW is not the problem, what ever prompted this nightmare is......<P>BTW - Nicole would like nothing better than to not have to have OW in her life, your life and the family's life!!!!<P>Keep that in mind......<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Arik,<BR>I replied to Nicole's thread, and I apologize for being blunt.<P>Why don't you have her email address blocked. <P>EMAIL IS CONTACT - even if it is a joke.<P>You need to recommit to your marriage 100% and end all contact completely - or you guys are going to go round and round the merry go round. <P>Arik, you need to stop this nonesense, or your marriage will only go for worse to total disaster. You have the power and control to stop contact. You haven't done this, so you aren't really committed to the marriage 100%. <P>You are wondering why Nicole is angry? <P>I don't understand how you can't see that, because I am the betrayed. But I wish you could.<P>

Yes Arik, maybe you're being too sensitive about Nicole's sensitivity in these matters. The first thing you should do when you feel your anger rising because of Nicole's ultra-sensitivity is stop what you were about to say, and then think about what it would seem like in Nicole's eyes. That will allow you to gain a little perspective I think, then your response to her won't be a big fat love-buster.<P>I know it's really really hard to not be defensive in the face of an attack. I've gotten into discussions with my wife where I start out trying to be as understanding as I can, and I end up yelling because all of a sudden I'm on the defensive, and I wonder how it happened. Then I have to stop and get back to the point of the whole discussion and calm down. It's really hard.<P>Glad you didn't take offense.<BR>--andy

Arik--<P>I responded to the other post, "she emailed him a joke." Please read, if you're so inclined.<P>After reading this post, more pieces to the puzzle are fitting for my understanding. <P>It's hard...I know. You're trying to get through your own recovery, AND having to deal with your W's recovery process too. You both find yourselves glaring at each other, and wonder WHY is this so hard, WHY doesn't he/she understand and help ME for a change? Why is this always about him/her???<P>Keep trying. Keep posting. You CAN do this!! The old cliche of time IS true. Try as hard as you can not to fight, it truly hurts you both so much! Be kind to each other.<P>My response to the other thread is still quite valid. Try. That's all we ask (and all you can ask of yourselves). I see such positives here...you're both posting. You WANT to try. <P>P.S. By the way, your style of posting is very much like my H's. You're a good guy (as your wife is a good 'un too!). I'll bet your efforts to even post here are not going unnoticed BY your W. Sometimes it's difficult for a woman to admit appreciation for H's efforts during upset, but I'm guessing she's very aware. Here's a pat on the back FOR your efforts (BOTH of you) in the midst of all the chaos you're going through.<p>[This message has been edited by Lucks (edited December 04, 1999).]

Hi Arik,<P>Well, I am a betrayer and the OW. Even though it was only a joke, I can say that your wife has every right to be angry.<P>The OW is still thinking of you, even if it seems very casual, don't let that fool you. She still made contact. I know for me there was a time when just seeing my OM's name on my screen would have me in tears. <P>

Hi, Arik.<P>Calm down. Take a deep breath. You knew what we'd say (BECAUSE WE CARE ABOUT BOTH OF YOU) before you ever posted.<P>Besides, you've already figured it all out. Contact is contact. That simple. Like a sip of alcohol is a drink for an alcoholic. But you already KNEW that, didn't you?<P>Read Luck's post again. And think. Now, how in the world could you possibly expect Nicole NOT to feel threatened by this?<P>UH, oh, the mom in me is coming out.... stand back! (My daughter's expression for stern lectures - "the Mommy thing"!) <P>Arik, you have cheated, lied, betrayed her trust, asked her to trust you again and lied some more. You have told the woman who adores you that you loved someone else. You have admitted thinking about giving up your family and her love for another woman. You have hurt her deeply, changed her past, changed her present and changed her future. All without consulting her. She is in the middle of this and can control NONE of it. And on top of that you spend time, energy and words constantly jumping to the defense of the woman who helped do this. And she did help. No matter what a good person she may be inside (good people make bad decisions too!), she helped destroy your wife's life. Threatened? Darn tootin!! She's done pretty well.<P>Now, you are a smart man. Just stop and think. You've probably got SOME idea as to my personality by now and I always try to give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt. But in my head I cannot imagine ANY reason why Nicole would NOT feel threatened. And, you know what? I think you know this too. <P>You're letting the monster grab you and control you now, Arik. Gotta put an end to it - FOR YOU! No matter what. Papa always said "Face your demons and defeat them, or they'll chase you forever." <P>It's time, Arik. Nicole has been trying to move past her pain to support and love you - even after all this. Her emotions and her pain are as raw as yours. She has been putting them aside to do what's right, to try to give you what you need.<P>Your turn, you know? Your turn.<P>BTW, you know it was a "big friggin' deal"!<P>(ok, lecture over for now!)<P>Hang in there. I'm pulling for you guys.<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited December 04, 1999).]

If Chrissie is true to her commitment to making her marriage work then she has to get you out of her life entirely...that means no joke emails. Even though they seem very innocent, it's still a constant reminder of her every time you receive one. It will make it very difficult to not respond to her and you will never be able to let her go in your mind and heart.<P>She has to be fair to you and give you the opportunity to make your marriage work as well.<P>I know you feel it's "no big friggin' deal" to remain friends with Chrissie on a casual level...(I thought I could remain friends with my OM too), but you have to realize that every time contact is initiated by either of you that it hurts you and Nicole. The pain of interacting with your OW (someone that you can't have) is far worse than the pain of letting go.<P>It definately is withdrawal that you are finding it so difficult to let go...you have to give it time. It's a daily struggle, but it will get easier with NO contact.

Arik & Nicole,<BR>Maybe you could agree to disagree on this one. <P>Arik, either block the mail or do not open it without Nicole present.<P>Nicole, realize that she mailed your H. Your anger comes from his defensiveness. He would have a different opinion a few months down the road.<P>Both of you. Don't let everything esculate. Arik...just let Nicole be "wrong" and write it off to her super sensitivity at this time. Nicole, realize Arik is just not himself. Unless what he is doing is pivitol in your recover, try giving him the peace he needs to go looking for the real him.<P>If this kind of thing continues, the way you are handling the affair will do more damage to your recovery than the affair itself (as long as the affair is over...no contact...over over over).<P>Both of you...chill!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Arik and Nicole,<P>I think one of you needs to get a grip, and it isn't Nicole. <P>I'm sorry, but Arik, joke or no joke, your W is hurting and that needs to be respected. You're still deep in the withdrawl stage, AND you are defending your precious Chrissy. (Also, while I'm at it, I wish your OW didn't have a name here. It irritates me.)<P>I've been in your shoes, Arik (and in yours Nicole) and they both suck. But let me tell you, I used to say it was worse being a betrayer, because of the guilt and shame. I'm not so sure anymore. Plus, I <B>HAD</B> guilt and shame, and it seems Arik, like yours comes and goes. No wonder Nicole is so confused.<P>Sorry, I usually am very non-judgemental. I think the events of the last week (my H admitted to *another* "inappropritate" relationship) have colored my view. I died a thousand deaths and almost ended my own life because of my affair. My H goes around acting like all is fine because he never slept with these women. Sheesh!<P>I HATE INFIDELITY, no matter what shape it takes. <P>And in case I haven't made this clear: accepting jokes from the OW is contact, pure and simple. Nicole has every right to be upset.<P>------------------<BR>The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination.<BR>-Carl Rogers<P>

Sorry you feel that way..New. I am going to keep this short since my boiling point is rather low right now. I believe that everyone has a name...Nicole, Chrissy, Arik, and all of you. If you choose to be totally anonymous, that is your choice(not saying that you have), but we are not just pseudonyms here. "protecting my precious Chrissy" I will protect anyone whom I feel is being unjustly treated. Nicole was saying how she was upset with Chrissy, I was simply saying that there was no "hidden agenda" to her joke. Holding tongue now.

You know what, Arik? Nobody's ever had to hold their tongue with me. I'm not usually like this... <P>But I have to tell you... when I first came here I wanted to die. I hated myself for what I'd done. I went through a three week or so time where I didn't give a sh*t who I hurt with my affair, but aside from that time, I wanted to die for the pain I'd caused. Some days, it's still there. I want to run away and hide, fall off the earth. I don't utter the OM's name because it is <B>painful</B> to hear for both my H and me. I'm embarrassed for what I've done. Do you ever feel like that, Arik? Do you ever feel like dying for what you've done? Because if you had, you'd understand why I don't want to give the OP a name here. It makes them real, and I want to forget. I bet Nicole does too. <P>Sorry if I touched a nerve or hurt you in some way. <P>------------------<BR>The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination.<BR>-Carl Rogers<P>

Arik,<P>I have been reading both your W and your posts. I really don't have any great insightful comments to give you about the e-mail and your defense of the woman that is cheating on her husband and family. BUT:<P>Envision if you will, your beautiful wife and children walking down the street. You wife has her arm around the man of her life. They stop to watch the children play and she passionately kisses the their children's father. Not the man who fathered the children, but the man who is raising the children with her. <P>You have the power to make that vision come true. Keep up your equivocating and defensive behavior and you will indeed get to watch another man raise your children and love your wife.<P>I have one last word for you.<P><BR>THINK!!!<P>God Bless You and Your Family

New, don't ever be sorry for being honest with me. I may not like the things that I hear, and I may have to hold my tongue, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't hear them. You are a valued "responder" to me. I look forward to several people's replies and postings...you are one of those people. Keep being honest with me and keep touching those nerves. Thanks darlin'...Arik

Okay Arik,<P>I'll keep that in mind the next time we get a little, uh, um, kinda sorta upset with each other <P>Oh, and just to remind you that I do indeed have a name, it's Sheryl. <P>------------------<BR>The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination.<BR>-Carl Rogers<P>

Hi, Arik,<P>Haven't been around much lately, but have followed your story. I was the initial betrayer in our marriage, and did damage to both of us in ways I could never even have imagined, for far longer than I ever would have expected. My H DuncanMac had a brief affair last year... and yes, I do believe that at least in part, it was fallout resulting from my long-term affair years ago (complete gory details in "my story", click glasses).<P>ANYWAY, just wanted to add my two cents' worth. Of course, under *normal circumstances*, emailing jokes to a friend of the opposite sex is no big deal. But after an affair, ALL THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. The 'normal' rules no longer apply to the relationship w/ OP. There can be no 'friendship'. There can be no continued contact. For many reasons; but chief among them are the facts that it is threatening, painful, and disrespectful to the betrayed spouse, and, maintains that emotional contact between the betrayers. And any of us who have been where you are now are well aware that it takes precious little contact to keep fannin' those embers! Yup, even seeing a name on a screen, or getting an 'innocuous' email.... "ahh, she's thinking of me! She still considers me a friend!"<P>Arik, I was involved with my OM for years. It had totally taken over my life. It WAS my life. I never thought I'd be free of him... didn't want to be either. But guess what? I am now. It wasn't easy, and it wasn't fast (no surprise, considering the depth & length of my involvement) - but it happened by just hanging in there and trying, over & over & over, to do the right things (that, & the fact that he refused to leave his marriage - believe me, I have thanked the heavens for that so many times...so take the opportunity that you've been handed and RUN WITH IT!). <P>I'm incredibly happy to be married now to the man who has been beside me all these years - helping him recover from his brief affair was the final step of *my* recovery - I came full-circle and was grateful to know how to help him. We both feel we dodged a bullet - make that hundreds of bullets, because we both tried in every way imaginable to wreck our marriage! And we appreciate what we pulled out of the fire more than any words can possibly say. We are SO lucky to be together. I hope you & Nicole wind up feeling this way someday.<P>I truly understand your pain, and what you are going through. I've been there. It is tough on both of you. But try to remember a couple of things: you *will* get through this withdrawal if you keep trying - but the only way to do it is to DO IT (trying to find loopholes in The Rules ultimately only expands and prolongs *your* pain - and Nicole's); your wife & your kids deserve a chance to be a healed, whole family (and I suspect, from reading Nicole's posts, that both of you possess the stuff to make it happen, and you will wind up pleasantly surprised - delighted! - with what you have built); and again: *the rules have changed*. Nicole has every right, and good reason, to be upset at ANY contact between you & OW. <P>Please listen to the wisdom of the many people here who have walked the road you're on and are further along - we all have the "20/20 vision" of hindsight , and would like to see you avoid some of the pitfalls along the way. Ours is hard-won knowledge (oh, so hard!), and we're trying to put it to some good use. I could have saved myself & DMac a helluva lot of grief if I'd had access to the knowledge on this website.<P><P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Dear Arik,<P>There wouldn't be a joke funny enough to warrent my H's OW to contact us. Contact is contact no matter how innocent or trivial. Don't take this personally, just substituting my H in your position and I think that would be mad.