Nellie,<P>I'm very sorry your H did that to you and I understand your viewpoint, and frankly, I agree with you. Neither my H or I had any intentions of leaving our children or breaking up any families. When our affairs were exposed, they were over. Very simple. Take good care.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

I understand much of what you are saying. One question. If you had no intention of leaving your marriages and really the only thing that ended your affair was discovery, do you think the affair itself is wrong or only the pain it causes. I mean, if an affair could somehow not cause pain, you would be OK with it as long as it was giving you pleasure?<P>If I had an affair (I remember you thread and still mull it over in my head) I would feel like I was betraying myself every bit as much as H, even if he didn't know.<P>I think it may be that commitment is a combination of constraint and dedication. <P>It seems like you felt no internal constraint without discovery, but upon discovery and its accompanying external constraint, you could renew your dedication to your marriage.<P>I'm really not trying to offend, just understand. How are you about following rules in other areas of your life? Do you stay within the system or try to change the system or do you disregard rules or skirt them when you are likely not to get caught?<P>Gotta go...<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL,<P>No offense taken. I don't have a lot of time to respond to this profound question right now, but I'll give it my best shot. First off, when I relate my thoughts and feelings, I try to tell what I thought THEN vs. NOW. I think a lot of you get caught up in when I tell what I thought THEN, thinking it is how I still feel NOW. And, I guess I can understand that. (I do hope you're not doing that to your spouses, though, because people's views and perspectives CAN change!) But AT THE TIME, I chose to do what I did (as well as my H chose to do what he did) because we didn't see any other way. AT THE TIME, AT THE TIME, AT THE TIME!!!!!!!<P>So, let me put this plainly, I feel that ALL AFFAIRS ARE WRONG. They are wrong, first and foremost, because they are built on lies, deceit and b.s. They are fantasies and escapes. Nothing positive or good can come out of them. I do feel like I cheapened myself by having an affair. I deserve to have a healthy, fulfilling relationship. I deserve to be loved openly and honestly. Everyone does. So, I agree with you.<P>As far as how I follow other "rules" of society, I guess you'd be shocked to know that I am a model citizen, very well respected by my colleagues and peers. I do sometimes drive over the speed limit. Shhhhhhh! <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Got it. I think. I just can not fathom ever thinking the way you did...but that was the other thread.<P>I appreciate people change and your right, it is easy to confuse then and now. Of course how can you be sure now doesn't become then again.<P>I guess I have been so congruent and disaplined in life...go ahead...call me a goody two shoes...it is hard for me to wrap my mind around another kind of thought process.<P>When I got audited by the IRS....I was outraged because I took it as an attack on my integrity. She ended up telling me I had the most correct tax return she had ever audited. I do my own on Turbo Tax. <P>Still I don't see myself as rigid. In many areas I am a free spirit...just very very disaplined. <P>Ok...if you must know...I used to speed, then I got in an accident (nothing to do with speed) and now I stopped that too.<P>So maybe I just proved your point. I learned and changed my behavior.<P>Thanks!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

New woman, have no idea why you are so defensive! Should you choose to disagree, no issue. Should you choose anger and attempt to belittle, then it shows more of the immature behavior that got you where you are today. <BR>Your statements are misleading, and I beleive could be easily misinterpreted by too many that are new to this forum. <BR>"for the life of me, I cannot understand.." It is time for you to look at yourself, which you are not really doing IMHO! I have read enough of your posts to see that you have a lot of growing to do, but you are argumentative or ignore suggestions. Your choice of course, but that has always been true.<BR>Best wishes for a clearer future.

cl, there is nothing in new woman's posts here that is intended to anger or belittle - the only anger I see is yours - and it has me a little confused.<P>Instead of simply stating that you think someone else is immature, perhaps you could enlighten us as to just what it is that has struck you so wrong? There is nothing misleading in someone else's opinion when it is clearly stated as an opinion - and new woman's post is obviously her own story and her own feelings - she never once said that this must be the way everyone feels. And she never once said that the way she felt was RIGHT - as a matter of fact, she later clearly states that she believes all affairs are wrong.<P>We need to keep our minds open to what others have experienced if we are to try to make any sense of what it is we are experiencing. I remember just after finding out about my husband's affair I was talking to a mutual friend who had known that it was going on. When I told her he was leaving, she said, "No - he NEVER indicated that he wanted to leave you!" I wasn't supposed to find out. Period.<P>People having affairs are caught up in the adrenalin rush of it all - the rest of us exist to them only peripherally, a self preservation mechanism in the fight or flight response that their bodies are experiencing as a result of the stress.<P>So, what new woman tells us is her side of this experience. Her never thinking about the wife and kids because they were never supposed to know. It's selfish - but there is absolutely NOTHING misleading or hurtful about talking about this aspect of affairs. It could help all of us to know that our spouses aren't all out there deliberately hurting us - that they are in another world.<P>I've never heard any arguments about the "fantasy" of an affair - this is just part of that. And new woman's honesty in this forum is helpful, necessary and refreshing. I respect her for posting here and being willing to enter the lion's den to share with us parts of herself that might help us to understand more about affairs.<P>I guess I am on my high horse about this to some extent, but it bothers me to read statements like yours, cl, that I cannot see the basis of. Show us what it is that is so wrong - point by point, detail by detail, quoting from the post(s) you find so offensive. That is communication. Simply stating that a person is immature is not - at least in my opinion.<P>Sorry if this comes across to you as mean-spirited or rude, but I felt very strongly about this and needed to say it.<P>terri

Hello Terri, sorry if you are offended, nothing was intended at you. I would not expect all to understand, but there is more history than you may have. If you will read back on some other posts, and I will not waste the time searching them since I have to be back at work in a few hrs, there is a pattern that I have noted. Perhaps she has changed the tone, as I read less and less, but the prior posts were without remorse, usually justifying certain behaviors.<BR>I felt as strongly as you that a reply was in order. <P>"And so, again, I felt like I was helping him by caring for him.<BR>This is codependent behavior. Is this healthy or mature? I think not.<P>"But, at the time, thinking about that was not even in the realm of possibilities. I didn't even consider it."<BR>Some claim this is part of the fantasy, but it is not necessarily so in all relationships. Irrational thought processes should be examined!<P>"For the life of me, I cannot understand why we get ourselves in such a state of mind that we cannot see these things when we should have been able to see them."<BR>Again, this is a comment that made me feel that she needs to look at her choices in life. That is what I stated. <P>"But, if this makes any sense, I think this is the same for all of you betrayed too." <BR>This is why I suggested a more well rounded point of view. No, it is not the same for all of those that are betrayed, not even close.<P>"How many of you WISH you could go back and see how unhappy your spouses were? How many of you wish you could go back now and LISTEN to all your spouses cries for help?"<BR>What cries for help were some supposed to see? What unhappiness? Why assume those that were betrayed were not listening? <P>Terri, I felt the initial post was quite insensitive, regardless of posting as an opinion. The assumptions are there, and many of us are offended by such posts. Thus the suggestion for her to become familar with other affairs. I have made the choice to ignore most of these, but not today. Perhaps my words were harsher than some? After retreiving my e-mail I would venture to guess that plenty felt her to be presumptuous but chose to word some responses a bit softer. Perhaps that works both ways? Perhaps some of us are much more sensitive to certain issues? And perhaps you feel differently than I do about this. That is fine with me to agree to disagree. We will not all agree on many issues, and we are certainly entitled to our opinions, just as we are entitled to our emotions.<P>

Terri,<P>THANK YOU! <P><BR>cl,<P>As Terri stated, if anyone is defensive and angry it is you. I am sitting here, yes, for the life of me, trying to figure out why you are so angered by my posts. I have said how this is how I thought THEN, and yet you continue to refer to how I AM. You say there is more "history" that Terri doesn't know about????? Terri has as much "history" as you and everyone else here does. And yes, there is much, much more, to my story, just like there is much much more to EVERYONE'S story on this board.<P>You know, I have seen people who are currently involved in affairs come to this forum and almost shake it in our faces. So, yes, FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I cannot understand why you choose to belittle and berate me when I am someone who gets it. I don't deserve that. <P>CL, I'm not familiar with your story, so I apologize. Maybe you are saying things to me that you are unable to say to your spouse. I don't know. If you and your spouse are rebuilding and in recovery, I certainly hope not, because no one wants to be belittled, berated and reminded of their mistakes day after day. I know this is a safe environment for everyone to share feelings, but I cannot and will not be the fall guy. That is not my place.<P>I hope you find happiness and peace.<BR>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited August 24, 1999).]

cl, you wrote:<P>"My h states he was never the least bit unhappy in the marriage, he was just gone a lot. He has a problem with sexaul complusiveness, and the OWs made it all too easy for him. If they would have respected the fact that he was married, maybe this whole illness would have followed another course. But there was so little regard for the institute of marriage by both H and the OWs, that it made it easy for the affairs to happen." <P>And you are jumping all over new woman? PULLLLLLLEEZZZZZ .... I cannot believe you are buying this line of CRAP from your H. Sexual complusiveness? You're telling me that HE COULDN'T HELP HIMSELF? <BR>All he has done is feed you a line of bull to get himself off the hook. He could have stopped it just like the women could have. Forget that THEY knew he was married ... HE KNEW HE WAS MARRIED!<P>HELLO?<P>I'm afraid you have your head in the sand on this one ... and instead of realizing the gravity of your OWN situation, you choose to lash out at new woman .... me thinks she hit a NERVE!

The only reason I responded was that I have known terri for quite a few months. I really feel no other need to try to explain what has been said that I felt was insensitive.<BR>maya, whether you choose to believe that sexual addiction/compulsiveness is an illness or not is your issue. Is alcoholism an illness? Is depression an illness? Is drug addiction an illness? There is a lot of info available on the net, in case you are interested in diagnosis and treatment. Yep, a nerve was struck, but as I said we can choose to disagree. No sand around here, just reality and a very bright future. <BR>nw, Perhaps a nerve was struck at your end? I am not at all angry, just sorry that some are short sighted. If you choose to interpret what I said as condescending, fine, as I chose to interpret what you wrote. If you are reminded daily of your transgressions, then there is a lot of healing yet to do. There are other betrayers here, such as student, that may be able to offer you some insight. <BR>Looks like a day for disagreement by reading this and Glenn's thread.

Whatever ....<P>Is there a cure or do you get to have your marriage vows broken the rest of your life in the name of "disease"?<P>Can you say STD????????

Maya:<P>Never have I seen such ill-informed or spiteful opinions from you. In my humble opinion, you're acting just like D99H. I'd suggest an apology to cl is in order.

I'm sorry.<P>

Why thank you...

I don't post much, never have, but I do find that this site has helped me to realize what shortcomings I had, and I do think that #1 on the list is immaturity which brought me to the point that led to an affair. An immature outlook and selfishness, amongst many other reasons (not justifications). New Woman's posts are clearly trying to point out from her own perspective what dynamics (emotions) are involved in an affair (her own and many others, I believe), and I can honestly understand where she is coming from and where she was during her affair. People obviously do not think when they are involved in this situation; they are immature and avoiding the real world and real responsibility and oblivious to what pain their family is going through, while at the same time experiencing an incredible amount of guilt. When NW is trying to relate her own perspective, she is doing so with the utmost of good intentions, which I can see, trying to help others understand where she was, and maybe where many other betrayers are now. Affairs are always wrong, no if's and's or but's about it. But that doesn't mean that the former betrayers cannot learn a valuable (albeit most painful) lesson from all of this, and go on in their marriages with eyes wide open, knowing that this could never happen again to them. Uncovering all of those problems (within ourselves) really makes an "immature" person grow up fast. Also, there are as many different types of affairs as there are people who are involved in them, so any insight given by NW (like she has said) is her own personal experience, and I don't think that she tried to come across as generalizing in this respect, but her own situation echoes mine. I guess there does come a time where rehashing all of this can be bad, time to move on.

Maybe I'm a moron or something, but what is it about NW's post that pissed some of you off so much? Really, I don't get it. I just read through it for the tenth time and still don't see what it was. What I take from it is what she believed during her affair. It sounds to me like she now understands this was unclear thinking. Why is she getting jumped on?? Am I missing something? Could someone explain it to me without going off the deep end?

New Woman --<BR>I understand what you are saying...I think the OMs wife was part of the reason I fell in love with him in the first place.<P>I only heard bad things from the OMs sister about his wife and his sister was actually hoping and trying to get OM to get divorced so that he could be with me. I also saw first hand how poorly the OMs wife was treating him on a vacation that we took together with his family and my family. She treated him with total disrespect and bascially humiliated him in front of his family and friends that I was literally shaking from anger.<P>Before this point I never thought about loving him or leaving my H for him...I just felt so terrible for him that I wanted to whisk him away, hold him, and take care of him. I saw how hurt he was and my heart just poured out for him. That was honestly when I fell in love.<P>He was extremely vulnerable at this point in his life...so when it all came out in the open how we felt about each other it just made the feelings that much more intense.<P>So, yes I had ill feelings towards the OMs wife which probably made it easier to have an affair with him in the first place.<P>I realize I'm emphasising her bad points...I know she must have a good side and hope that she will make the OM happy...

I am wondering if the reason NW's post brought up such strong emotions is because she explained that during or before the affair she was fed a lot of misinformation by OM. Maybe some people want so badly to put most of the blame on the OW that they can't handle the fact that their spouse may have misrepresented them and thus helped lead a person into an affair with them. Of course affairs are never right, we all know that. However, well intented people, especially if they are young or naive can be led into affairs. Sone examples: the woman who swears her husband is beating and mistreating her and can't leave him because she is so afraid but needs the support of another man... the man who's wife is a raging alcoholic, the only way he can get emotional support is through an affair, how could he possibly leave, what happens when she picks up the kids for the weekend and goes for a drunken binge, the man who says he's not married at all and of course the most common, the man with the wife who treats him so badly (of course he doesn't tell you he has been caught cheating on her numerous times). I am 36 years old and I was not aware that people lie like this until 6 yrs ago when I had my own experience. When I met my ex he had a roomate, an ex girlfriend. The reason she ws the EX girlfriend I was told was because she had cheated on him and he didn't want to be with someone he couldn't trust. The cheating had taken place about a year prior to my meeting him. He said that they were in agreement about the split and that they both agreed to save some money before moving to seperate residences. He said the goal was to move when they both got their income tax checks back. Now I bought this because my own parents had done the exact same thing before they split in their 50's. Mother had a room in the upstairs part of the house, father in the downstairs, for about 1-2 yrs. As planned about two weeks after we started dating he got the income tax check and moved out. About three months later I get a call from the ex girlfriend, he is still seeing her, she had no idea he was moving out, let alone he was seeing someone else, she thought he just needed some space. She had just found out about me! Guess what, I didn't believe her, of course now years later I do, I figured hey you cheated, he wanted out, thats what you get, to late to try and work it out now or try to screw up his life. I felt sorry for him, that his ex would try to screw with his life that way! Years later I find out that what really happened is she kicked him out because he was continuously having affairs! She started dating someone and he beged her back, then of course, a year later he left her for me! It took me 2 years to get the whole story and I got none of it from him. I have since talked to lots of people that have been involved with these serial cheat types and it is unbelievable how long they can get away with these outragiuous lies, I guess when you love someone you want so bad to believe them. In the end my ex left me for another woman, about 10 years younger than me! I was starting to catch on to what really happened when we ment and so he just went out and got someone more naive! I have to say that because of my experience with him I felt very little ill will towards her. I can only feel sorry for her because I know what she is going to go through. I feel strongly that he likely told her there was noone at home and when she found out there was he had probalby already left me. I don't know, after he left he would not speak to me and I din't call her and ask because I just wanted to wash my hands of the whole thing and not get in the middle of anything, he just was not worth it! I almost feel like I should ask to see the divorce agreement or ask for proof that a person is single after this experience, but how many people actually feel comfortable going that. I'm sorry but serial cheats are fantastic liers and actors and I don't see how they can get straight without years of counseling, support groups and lots and lots of motivation. In the case of a serial cheat, certainly not all people who have cheated, but someone who has this pattern it is a big mistake to put much of the blame on the OW, it just lets the sex addict off the hook! I can almost guarentee that if any lying was required to get OW/OM into bed the sex addict or serial cheat did what was necessary. People who are addicted will lie to get their drug! Putting most the blame on the OW/OM is ike an alcoholic who blames his drinking on the fact that the bottle was in front of him. I'm sorry but this is called denial!

OK GUYS.......I UNDERSTAND BOTH OF YOU....<BR>I will start with NW because I come from the same side of the fence as CL and have more to say on that issue. <BR>NW....CL is upset by your questions at the end of your post. In the context of your post I believe you are trying and may have had a break through but at the end the questions reflect you still blame the wife...however I think what you really mean is you blame your husband for your affair. And maybe he is too blame, I have no clue but hearing not cl and my h I know without a doubt we were not to blame. To ease ones conscience one will believe anything...so when a married man says to the ow my wife is a b.... and the ow really likes the man well..enough said.<BR>maya, sorry but you are wrong. Let me start from the begining and make a long story short. I was raised to not have sex at all until I was married. So I was a virgin when I married my h. He however was not. At the time, I told myself well this could be a good thing because he can never say he had an affair because he wondered if someone else would be different or better..Naive little me did not realize, that after being a ladies man going to one woman is a difficult task. There is a thrill in being attractive to other people. But where as I have never acted on this thrill, he had and seemed harmless...until it was way cross the line... and yes cl is or was probably very upset that her husband may have belittled her to ow...I know I was so much that I wanted a divorce over just that thought. H kept telling me I was perfect and it was an illness or a devil inside himself but I kept blaming myself and getting angry about what he might have told others. Finally with his help I called them and asked...surprise they all said he loved me and that he never said anything other than how great I am. That is why one ow gave him the boot. <BR>I have read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS + SURVING AN AFFAIR...and he agrees with me all of his needs were fullfilled and more ...I could not have been a more perfect wife..so this was another bridge to cross for me.If I was so perfect and gave my best how come I am not good enough. He continues to say not me that it is him...and he says lots of bs laughing but swears that now he knows why and how he can stop. I believe he means it and hope he continues to mean it. My needs were not met by him at all. I went through depression and I had chances for affairs but because of my faith in God because I was taught sex is only for your spouse, I said no way...I could have destroyed 2 families and I thank God every day that I had the wisdom and the strength to say no. H knows and I know now what needs he was not filling for me and now because of what he did my love bank is minus. I am not demanding anything but have only discussed how much I need him to deposit into my bank. He is doing all that he can and it is working now..that we have got past such major hurdles...<BR>NW.... instead of asking dont you wish you knew your spouse was miserable..why dont you ask why did spouse in question not express how bad he felt..why did the betrayer not respect his/her vows and spouses enough to discuss how badly he/she felt....why when the spouse realized another person <BR>understood did they not try to tell their spouse in the same way and words....I know I did and that is why I did not have an affair....I did not let secrets destroy me ...He did ....and I am not to blame...HE is and I dont want him to pay...I dont want revenge...I just want to be loved the way I love him....and I told him if this is too much to ask he can go ....I will not hurt him in anyway including financially or with my kids...but if he wants to stay than this giver needs to have some given back....<BR>cl....i really believe your h...He will have to tell you everything ...he will have to avoid flirty situations and being alone with females....and where I come from this is called being a gentleman ...never be alone with a woman....never enter a home knowing a woman is alone...<BR>hope no one is offended because i do not attend to offend anyone just explaining were cl and i are coming from.....<BR> <P>------------------<BR>INLOVE.....<BR>LOVE HAPPY ENDINGS HOPING WE ALL HAVE ONE...<P>

Wow, I didn't know this thread was still active. I'd hoped the misunderstandings contained herein had been put to rest, but I see that is not the case. <sigh> This is really just a matter of miscommunication. I know that some of you feel I wrote this post to somehow blame the betrayed spouse for their unfaithful spouse's affair. That couldn't be farther from the truth. If that were the case, then I'd be blaming myself for my H's choice to have an affair!!! Please don't forget, I'm a betrayed spouse too. The rhetorical questions I posed at the end were for all of us, betrayed and betrayers alike. There are MANY things I wish I had done, listened to, paid attention to, read into, and taken notice of during my marriage. Many, many things. My H and I took a lot of things for granted. Not a day goes by that we both don't wish we'd done and seen things differently. That is all that question meant. I'm still a little dismayed that it was misinterpreted to mean I was blaming anyone. <P>My sole purpose was to illustrate what I THOUGHT about OM's wife DURING the affair because I've read many of you pondering this issue. It was not to illustrate what I think now!!!!! And yet, I was criticized for my "codependent behavior," and "irrational thought processes," as if that is how I think now. Yes, for a moment I took offense to that because it hurt my feelings. I have said time and time again in almost every post I've written that I have learned, I have grown, and I have changed. So, for someone to suggest that I need to "look at my choices in life" bothered me greatly when the last 2 years of my life have been consumed with doing exactly that!<P>My choice to have an affair was wrong, was a big mistake, and I will never lower myself to that level ever again. I have learned so, so much about myself, about my H, about relationships in general, and about how to have a successful, healthy and happy marriage. As a result, my marriage is doing extremely well. My H and I have remade ourselves and rebuilt our marriage into a solid, airtight union now. It has been hard work and a very painful growing and learning process, and I am very proud of how far we've come. Very proud. Beside our children, it's our great accomplishment. So, yes, it hurt my feelings for someone to dismiss it so blatantly. But, I'm trying to remember that we're all at different stages and that many of you are still struggling with unfaithful spouses. I'm trying hard to remember that. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.