Alo' all,<P>My wife and I are probably going to try and tackle the separation plan/pre-dissolution agreement again this weekend. She's seeing her lawyer Friday, I saw mine last week. She's having second thoughts on what she initially offered me two weeks ago:<P>full or primary custody<BR>-split time evenly (she lives in another school district, so they'd have to spend weeknights with me)<BR>-she'd pay child support<BR>-is paying me $400/mo. right now, only makes $800/mo. part-time while going to college (two semesters left until her degree)<P>house<BR>-worth about $100K, $800/mo. payments<BR>-purchased it one year ago<BR>-said I can have it<P>mini-van<BR>-worth about $9K, $200/mo. payments<BR>-still owe the majority on it<BR>-said I can have it if she can use it to take the kids places<P>debts<BR>-she'd take VISA payment ($5K debt)<BR>-student loans are our own responsibility (she has $15K out, I have $42K)<P>material goods<BR>-only wants to take her personal belongings, maybe some photos<P> She is re-thinking her position; yes, $400/mo. is a lot, but I make $2200/mo. which just gets us by on our debts. We probably should split the VISA bill. My student loan payments haven't even come in yet (ugh).<BR> She feels that I'm controlling her because of the initial agreement, but she feels a lot of guilt and did offer everything on the list without me asking. But she is also living with someone who can support her financially; they've already started looking for houses together and she went to Cleveland with him to meet his parents this past two Sundays ago (the FF button on our lives is stuck; everything happened (revelation of affair, move-out, etc.) the day of March 19th, 2000).<BR> <BR> Any suggestions on how we make it through the second phase of negotiations? I'm not seeking revenge, I just want to be able to have the same standard of living we had before she left. Believe me, we weren't getting rich...<P>theo<BR>(yes, the same person who was asking what Plan A and Plan B were less than two weeks ago...)

(a note to myself)<P> well, it looks like you're going to have to deal with this one yourself. I'm sure some on this site have read your agreement, but haven't commented on it (darn). You must'nt always think that you will get answers to the problems you're having, especially when you're not implementing Plan A or Plan B like you're supposed to be doing. Good luck with your separation agreement and please try to keep your head. Write back when you have more information...<P>take care,<BR>your conscious<P><BR>

OK Theo....<P>You made me laugh!!!! LOLOLOL!!!<P>I say listen to your conscience (wink-wink!!!)<P>I can't comment too much cuz the whirlwind you have going on leading straight to divorce is mind-boggling to me.....<P>I have to go back and read whatever threads you have - I need to understand this better and then may or may not be able to help.....<P>While I am doing that....can you please formulate and write EXACTLY what and why you have done/are doing to learn/grow/fix the problems and marriage......or is it just full-steam divorce on emotions that are running much too high?<P>I'll be back!!! (best Terminator voice!!) <P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Sheba, I've posted a lot of information regarding the steamroller of a situation; some of them were in response to other people's problems. I hope they answer your questions; if not, please let me know and I'll do my best to enlighten. (I could send you my journal thus far; it's looking like it'll end up being longer than my master's thesis).<BR> For those who don't want to search, here's a brief timeline:<P>March 19-wife told me about affair, bombshell to me, left that night to stay with OM<P>1st week-very insightful conversations which last about 3 hours each night for 5 days. I learn a lot about her I didn't know (or understand), she learns a lot about me. I read 'his needs, her needs' and 'surviving an affair'; plan A implemented without me knowing about it yet. I'm empathic w/her, understand her feelings, and feel awful for the mistakes I've made. She keeps saying it's too bad that we talked too late, and 'what if we would have talked a year ago'? I ask her to come back home; she tells me she can't because she loves OM.<P>next few weeks-meeting w/ counselor (not going anywhere); we end up talking about our feelings, he listens; she's been coming to the house to spend time w/our 2 children, ages 8 & 10 (still wants to be Mom too). She wants a dissolution agreement; work on an initial plan. I see a lawyer to answer legal questions, she sees one very soon. Had a big fight on Sunday; told her I can't stand seeing her anymore. Needs to leave house when she has time w/kids because we can't exist in same place; she agrees (very little Plan A, very little Plan B). She told kids she is staying w/OM, asks if they'd like to spend night w/her EOW and help her look for houses. Plan for next diss-agreement (good name for it, eh?) soon. Next counsel session, Fri. April 27th; she's not looking back at this point, and I feel like a fading star...<P>theo

Hi Theo -<P>Just got in from work and hope to get back on here soon....I read your synopsis though and while I settle in here at home and get my "MB Brain" mode back, I would be very interested to know what your thoughts are when comparing the infidelity/relationship information from MB to your situation....In other words... what part (parts) of the info have you REALLY done?<P>Do you understand infidelity - why it happens, that it is a process, how that process works, "fantasy" vs reality, detachment, etc....?<P>Do you Really understand what a plan A is, who does it and when, and what it is truly for?<P>DO YOU LOVE YOUR WIFE?<P>DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A BETTER PERSON AND HUSBAND?<P>ARE YOU WILLING TO LEARN HOW AND DO THE REQUIRED WORK? EVEN WITH NOTHING IN RETURN (for a while, at least!)?<P>These are the basics to start....now, keep in mind that I haven't gotten the chance at your posts yet!! If these answers are truly covered in them - I will see it. If not, put it here for me - OK? <P>I'll be back later....the dog has her legs crossed!!!!! Gee, am I addicted when I come here before even letting the poor thing out!!! What a bad mommy!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>

I don't really think that this is the place to discuss a dissolution agreement. No offense to what goes on here, but you would probably be better served by going to the divorcenet or Father's Right to Custody pages.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.divorcenet.com" TARGET=_blank>www.divorcenet.com</A> <A HREF="http://www.deltabravo.net/custody" TARGET=_blank>www.deltabravo.net/custody</A>

theo,<P>I know you feel like your life is just changing right before your eyes - out of control, etc.<P>But, I encourage you to hang in there and get rid of any lovebusters!!! Tape is fantastic! <P>Don't make any agreements that you really don't want! You don't want a divorce do you? do you????? Am I talking to Theo's conscience now? HELLO?<P>Okay, work towards what you want, not what you don't want. Don't let fear get in the way of going for your marriage! <P>Spend your energy where it counts - and calm down and take a breath! You are so early in this game, seriously you are! I know it is hard, it is really hard. But you need to breath, eat breath eat sleep sleep and calm down - because everyone is so torn up so bad right now, that no one can make real good decisions!<P>Do you want this marriage to work? Really, deep down inside, do you? Of course you do! <P>Hang in there, we are here for you.<BR>TNT

Theo, <BR>I'm just up the road in Akron and just went thru what you did. MY divorce was on 2-1.<P>You will not be able to recover your previous life style anytime soon. We were 8 yrs from paying off the house. I now have 30 yrs of debt.<P>My lawyer told me you can usually get the wayword spouse, especially women, to give up more initially out of a feeling of guilt. <P>My x only took the extra bedroom furniture and her clothing and a painting we got for a wedding gift (I hope om likes it!). <P>As we tried to reconcile a couple times, things dragged on and she did end up getting 50% of equity of house and about 50% of my pension.<P>So if you want what you had sign now. If you want a chance at your marriage, drag it out to see if she comes to her senses.<P>Once the papers are signed and received by the court, your hearing will be between 30 and 90 days.

Ok Theo....where are you?<P>I went back and read all your posts...<P>2 things popped out at me right away.<P>1) You did not get correct definition of Plan A from Kenneth...Plan A is about working on yourself!!! It involves self-examination and an overall assessment of the marriage. You should realize and change anything that you have contributed to the current situation (especially communication!)!!<P>In the meantime, you are nice to your spouse...no Lovebusters (a lovebuster is something that the SPOUSE thinks is a disrespectful judgement, etc.), provide a safe haven - a place of love and understanding, show consistantly positive behavior, be a great Dad and a great Friend.<P>As you learn more about communication techniques - you should be applying what is needed to change the "lack of communication" problems of the past!!!<P>Go back and read SHA's post on Arrow's 4/18 thread....this is a man you should research and follow!!! He will show how patience and proper mindset will aid in providing a secure environment - which is very important through this.<P>2) You are trying to combine to many different ideas at once......FRTC may be great regarding rights - but they are very anti-marriage if you are inclined to want a reconciliation. DO NOT TRY to throw too many ingredients into your "plan" of action...you are only confusing yourself!!!!!<P>If your lawyer says that you can't do much on the legal front except "start the proceedings" and you don't want a divorce...then do nothing!!!!<P>If it's just a temporary order that needs to be worked out now - then fine!<BR>Heed K's advice on that subject on your other thread......<P>Theo, you have too many emotions swirling that you have to deal with. You are in a position where your wife is going 2-40 and you are trying to keep up. YOU can't "keep up" emotionally - you have not even known there was something this wrong!! Your wife has had time to get herself to this point - that is why she thinks she "knows" what it is she wants....<P>But you see Theo...she based her choices on the old marriage!! When she sees that you can change and have hope - she just might realize that she can to!!!<P>She will seem so determined because she was not satisfied with the marriage the way it was......she is scared to even listen to anything you may say to the contrary. She needs to be shown...words mean nothing to her right now.<P>As far as Plan B....look at this logically for a minute.<P>Plan B is to be used after a strict implementation of Plan A. There is a reason for that.....<P>Your wife knows that the marriage was not great...she wants something better.<P>What is it that would seem "better" to her.....<P> Plan A with actions, changes, hope, etc.<P>OR <P> Plan B with silence......<P>I think that the choice is pretty obvious as to what would make marriage seem more appealing....<P>Don't you?<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>PS - please note that "OM" plays no role in your thoughts, actions, etc. All OM is to you is an escape route your wife happened to choose to get away from something she is dissatisfied with.....no demands of her leaving him are enforcable to your advantage until YOU give her a reason to leave him. GET IT!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited April 21, 2000).]

Okay (deep breath), first of all, I apologize to all of you for writing my 'conscience' as my 'conscious'...I was the 4th grade spelling champion at my elementary, and that misappropriation of words really bothers me (note that it wasn't misspelled, though ). I really don't know what it is I want right now; I'm NOT in the state of mind to make a rational decision at this point, and I'm trying to rationalize everything (ugh). <BR>To answer a few questions, though:<P>Do you understand infidelity - why it happens, that it is a process, how that process works, "fantasy" vs<BR>reality, detachment, etc....?<P> Yes, I do; I understand exactly why it happened; I fared quite poorly on the ENQ (overly harsh, I feel).<BR>Vicky and I talked for many, many hours on the shortcomings in our marriage; I understand, but she still tells <BR>me I don't. I've been hurt by so many things that she's said. She didn't like the way I dressed...yes, I LIKE <BR>clothes from the Salvation Army; they're nice and well worn! I worried too much about money (we both went to <BR>college pretty much our whole entire marriage; we just got off food stamps 2 years ago; money was something that <BR>was never there). Everything was hidden from me (or I was blind and deaf), and I'm just now hearing about it.<P>Do you Really understand what a plan A is, who does it and when, and what it is truly for?<BR> Well, I understand it to a point; I know what it's for and I know that it works much, much better if the WS <BR>has at least a sliver of hope for reconciliation. It's up to me to implement it and make it work because I'm <BR>doing it alone. I've read it a few times over and am not convinced that it will make a bit of difference. <P>DO YOU LOVE YOUR WIFE?<BR> YES. But I feel all of the aspects that created the love for her slipping away every minute. I told her again <BR>today that I love her and that I don't want this to happen. <P>DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A BETTER PERSON AND HUSBAND?<BR> YES. And I'm gaining knowledge daily to learn how to do that. I've read His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving An <BR>Affair to gain insight on how to be that person.<P>ARE YOU WILLING TO LEARN HOW AND DO THE REQUIRED WORK? EVEN WITH NOTHING<BR>IN RETURN (for a while, at least!)?<BR> I DON'T KNOW...I really don't know. I am not sure if I'm willing to invest the months or years required to <BR>follow through on this. I take to heart the sad stories of people trying their best and not ever getting <BR>anything in return (NSR: Jim). And frankly, RWD from Akron's above reply scares the h*ll out of me.<P> I am trying to do too many things at once; the Plan A I've made are taking care of the kids (btw, they're 8 & 10 yr. old <BR>girls) every needs everyday, doing EVERYTHING it takes to keep a household in order, I've changed jobs (old one was too many <BR>hours, lotsa weeknights & weekends), bought new clothes, and (to a point) listening to Vicky's desires, asking her safe questions <BR>about school and her job, complimenting her on accomplishments and appearance. I can't physically touch her (affection) or exercise <BR>w/ her (rec. companshp), but I have been exercising regularly on my own and have lost about 10 pounds since this started (I'm 5'10" and am down <BR>to 170 lbs. thus far).<BR> I've also been controlling because I'm p*ssed off at her requests to do her laundry here (she brought his towels in with her clothes), and <BR>have complained about her being late to be with the kids and really went ballistic when she told me she couldn't make it to both of our daughter's <BR>first soccer games of the Spring because she had forgotten that she promised the OM that she would go w/ him to Cleveland to visit his family.<BR>She's asked to take our mini-van on business trips; I said no....all in all, how much does a person have to take? I believe I am validated in <BR>putting my foot down; it feels more to me like I'm putting it down so much that's there a hole worn in the floor...and yesterday she told the kids <BR>about the OM, that they were looking for houses, and that when she finds one, they can each have their own room (we live in a 2 bedroom house <BR>presently...#@!#*&#@!)...<BR> Plan B stuff has been that I try to avoid her when she's here and I always stick to business conversations with her (as of late) because all we <BR>do otherwise is rehash the coulda shoulda stuff we went over in the first week and a half.<BR> All of this and the fact that I'm caught up in dissolution agreement proceedings (because it's the beeline she has taken) and am very scared I might <BR>lose more than a wife...<P>...it's an absolute sewer of emotions and I can't imagine her or I coming out of smelling like anything other than sh*t.<P>theo

man, that last post required me to dial in from home over 20 times, computer crashed (lucky for me, <BR>I saved my reply in notepad!); all in all, a half hour trying to post. I'm now a M-F guy using my computer <BR>at work, because I find that my home PC isn't affectionate or admirable, it's very unattractive (not it's fault, <BR>though; it's a '93 model with Win 3.1), and provides me with no <BR>financial or domestic support. My account is at 0 with it because I feel that LB's it has hurt me with has <BR>forced me to turn it off forever. Goodbye, IBM 486DX2 with the 50 MHz processor, 16MB RAM and 400MB of hard disk <BR>space...you will be missed by no one...<P>theo<P>

Hi Theo -<P>Yep, I'd say that you are definitely in a swirl!!!! This is all much too much at once for you and I think that you feel even more panicked because your wife clued you in after her "decision" and is moving way too fast!!!<P>I can relate because my H did the same!!<BR>One weekend we're camping together and the next he moved out!! He tells me he left to give us space and then he calls and says he filed for divorce!!<P>My head spun like Linda Blair's in the Exorcist!!!!<P>You need to take a looooonnnngggg walk!! You need to put your thoughts in some sort of order!! <P>You mentioned having a journal...do you really or was that just a joke? I ask because writing is a great way to get your thoughts out and to review over and over until they can make some sense!!<P>What do you want for your life?<BR>What kind of person do you want to be?<BR>How close are you to being the person you want to be?<BR>What do you want for your girls?<BR>How big of a role do you want to be in their lives?<BR>What lessons do you want them learning?<BR>How do you view your wife?<BR>Is she your partner or just your need filler?<BR>Is she worth some time, effort and work?<BR>Does she have to be what you want her to be or can you accept that change and growth are needed on both parts?<BR>Is TIME, PATIENCE & EFFORT more difficult out of lack of love or out of laziness and selfishness?<P>These are just some of the questions that you must look at first.....<P>Only when you know your true self and desires can you attempt a Plan A, B, etc.....Otherwise you are only making half-hearted attempts and might as well just be blowing smoke out of your "you know what"!!! <P>You read my post about morality and how I reasoned my way through that....You seemed to like my reasonings and I therefore thought that you are of like mind....perhaps however, you aren't as strong as you need to be to apply them to yourself. That's OK - if you want to be - we will get you there!!!<P>I see so many different things in your posts.....hurt, pain, bewilderment, anger, selfishness, blame, forgiveness, demands, ....... you're running the whole gambit!!! So, I can't really tell who the real you is...what you really are made of. Are you an impatient, demanding kind of guy? Are you a person who only does things he HAS to in order to get what you want? Are you a person who treats others as they like to be treated and is aware enough to know it?<BR>Are you controlling? Do you feel that your feelings and thoughts are more important than others? Do you LISTEN and truly understand another opinion when someone disagrees with you?<P>Because of my ignorance of your personality, it is hard for me to figure out which approach would work best with you.....I think that I will just stick with my being as honest as I can and just hope that you don't take offense to anything that I say....OK? Remember that I say everything with love and compassion and only want you all to come out of this mess in the best possible way!!!!<P>I am going to address things that you have written....take in the "whole" picture and don't pick out one or two "things" to truly listen to - OK?<P>Very good that you understand not to try to rationalize....but if you know it - why are you doing it?<P>Understanding infidelity...Please explain what you meant by overly harsh?<BR>Does that mean that you know the whole of what led to this current marital state or are you just feeling that she thinks it is just all your fault? WHAT DO YOU THINK about what you could have done better? WHAT DO YOU THINK about what she could have done better? HOW could you both start being a "team" in the marriage instead of the way things have become?<P>When we look at faults....we have to remember that our spouses sometimes give us petty little things as "reasons" when they are simply part of the justifications they convince themselves of in order to lessen their guilt of what they have done....that, I feel, explains some things you mention she has said to you - like the clothes, money, etc. She probably has some sort of problem with those areas but it is not the true root of her dismay with the marriage.<P>I'll give you an example...I was in a car accident and had long lasting injuries that prevented me from going back to work full-time...my H's main reason for leaving me was that I couldn't work fulltime. <P>Two things just don't make sense about that - other than how shallow and uncaring he seemed. The first is he made more than enough money that we weren't effected too much when all was said and done. Number two is that there wasn't anything that I could do about it! <P>What I have figured out since is that he got scared.....he has a need for partnership and felt that two people working like hours was partnership...he thought that life was unbalanced for us now and he wanted that "balance" back!!<P>He did not consider it an unbalanced relationship when I worked fulltime AND did all the housework, the finances, etc. by myself, though....funny how people's thinking process works sometimes!!!!<P>But even with the need for "partnership" that he has...this is not the root problem in our marriage. There are a lot of factors, and I am sure that there are in your situation also!!!<P>I think that it comes down to communication just like you surmised!!! It is like this with most of these situations!! There is nothing we can do about what we lacked in the past - all we can do is learn how to communicate better in the present and future.<P>If it's one thing that I learned it is that when you are afraid to speak up about something, stop and realize that the result of NOT doing so could far outweigh any disharmony at the moment!!<P>Knowing Plan A.....MOST WS are not showing glimmers of hope at the start of this!!! That is why it needs to be done - to show them that there can be hope because we can change and start being a better spouse!!<P>I wrote a post to Hannah on the Emotional needs board....go look up her thread and read it entirely. It might clarify a few things. I also mentioned for you to search for SHA's posts - he is very good at communicating what Plan A entails....take a look at TomH's thread to Sir HurtsALot - it is a fabulous example!!!! <P>If implemented properly and consistantly it could very well make all the difference!!!! It won't if you do it halfway though.....that doesn't show a complete desire to change or that you want your wife back.<P>YOU do Plan A because you want to be better because you SHOULD....not be better because you HAVE TO to get her back. It also entails behavior that you keep up always....not on some timeline!<BR>You BECOME a better person...or don't bother!!! Her reactions to it are not a factor in your thinking really, they are just a great fringe benefit!!!<P>Loving your wife...THIS really disturbed me!! What do you mean Yes But....there are no buts........ What did that mean? Are you saying that only if you get something out of it all the time you will love her? Are you saying that you can't stick by her through the worse - only the better? If that's the case - do you really think that what you had for her was truly love?<P>You can't threaten when it comes to love. I understand that you need to feel love in return and that will come. What about the possibility that she hasn't felt loved by you for a long time? Does that make it right that she found OM then? Love is not conditional on her behavior....it's like "love the sinner, hate the sin." YOU really have to look at yourself with this one. Can you separate the actions from the person?<P>One thing that might help you is to really and truly realize that some things she says and does during this affair are from the mind of a person living in a fantasy.....remember there is a definite addiction factor here. Would you not love her if she was addicted to drugs or alcohol? No, she would simply need help....well, it's the same thing - she needs help!! You're changing, growth and strength are the help she needs!!<P>Willing to learn....Again, refer to searching your heart. One thing about the stories around here. NEVER let a story scare you into not trying to do your best!!! We are all different and we don't know what God has in mind. If we don't try....we will end up losing everytime!!!! Also, remember that you don't DO to RECEIVE...you do cuz that is the right thing......otherwise you gave up and took the easy way out. Depends on how you want to be, I guess!! <P>Everyone has their limitations. As long as you sincerely give it your best effort than you will be able to live without regret and with a renewed strength in yourself. You CAN however, choose to be a pessimist or an optimist!<BR>Go into this thinking it won't work and guess what? IT WON'T!!!!!<P>The "how much can I take" thinking has to go.....get rid of it!!! That is self-righteousness and has no place in a sincere wish to rebuild!! You are not taking anything!! You are simply having to handle an unpleasant problem in your life.....you don't and can't control her behavior and thoughts. Don't be conceded enough to try!!!! Is your behaving selfishly (which it is if you are trying to control someone!) make you any better than she is being with the affair? NO!!!!<P>A lot of getting through this is PERSPECTIVE.....<P>If you realize that you are simply holding her up through your patience and love while she is faltering than there is no problem with your own wants and needs. They will be manageable through the satisfaction of knowing that you helped your wife when the road got rocky.<P>If you know that you weren't being the best Husband through the marriage and you take steps to do so now and always - then no matter what she ultimately does, you will be better off!! Either with her or without her....learn and practice now if you want a future relationship with anyone. Otherwise you are doomed to repeat.<P>Affairs = Escape....Escape = Fantasy..<BR>...Fantasy = Addiction....Addiction =<BR>Not seeing reality!!!!! If you learn this - then there is no problem with being so hurt by her actions and words. She is not herself.....it is not personal!!!!<P>As far as what you have done/are doing with your Plan A so far.....that is great!! A perspective for you with this also though.....you SHOULD know and contribute to these things just as part of being a good husband. And what do you mean listening "to a point"? That isn't good!!! No disrespectful judgements or actions allowed!!! Why won't you listen fully? Doesn't mean you have to agree, but will definitely show her that her thoughts and opinions are valued!!!! Are they?<P>Do not think in terms of "putting your foot down" that is condescending!!!<BR>If you do not like something she has done or is doing...such as the laundry, blowing off the kids for OM, and any other delusions caused by the affair - simply state that it is inappropriate to expect you and the children to accept.<P>No fighting, no going "balistic" - those are lovebusters!!!! Why join her down at her level....behave consistantly in what is right and proper without anger and control. If you don't all she is seeing is the anger and control and not the unreasonableness that she is projecting with this ludicrous behavior!<P>Oh my, but I think I have written another novel....sorry!! I am kind of wordy sometimes!! I hope that I have given you some kind of direction here though.....I really want you to take some thought process time.<P>BIG HUGS, PRAYERS and STRENGTH,<P>Sheba <BR> <BR>

Hi Sheba, you are the best! If anyone in my life has helped me think more clearly about things, it's you. You bring up several questions I do need to answer for myself; it gets messy below and my apologies in advance for the CAPS LOCK thing; I know it looks like I'm yelling, but I used it to distinguish between your questions and my answers...<P> First of all, I DO have a journal which has helped me out quite a bit. I haven't written in it for five days, but I need to get back to it soon.<P> You also ask what kind of guy I am...Q: selfish? A: unfortunately yes, Q: impatient? A: sometimes, Q: controlling? A: sometimes, Q: demanding A: yep, Q: good listener? A: not really, but I try, Q: do things to get what I want? A: sometimes, part of selfishness, Q: put my feelings first? A: probably, Q: treat others as I wish to be treated? A: depends upon the environment...<P> So here's my problem; I tend to be the type of person I should be around co-workers and friends, but not at home. I used to not have any (or very few) of the above problems early on. My bad personal traits were there, but I was able to stash them in the cellar because I was happy with my life. Something opened the door within the last few years and let them out; could be a combination of a lot of things...<BR> My schooling was priority; W and I agreed on that. Once I got out, I'd get a great job and she could finish up (it'd help that the kids were older). Took me longer than normal to finish school; didn't get the dream job in CA (I'm an animator/illustrator; those types of jobs are on the coasts). It's not that I'm not making any money, it's just not enough to put us in the comfort zone. It's been two years of working this job, waiting for my W to finish her degree.<BR> In the meantime, she started working part-time with some of my friends from college at another company (I was hoping to work in the same place by Spring 2001). She got them organized and upped their production with the skills she had learned by running a household (I worked too much, didn't do a lot of things I should've been helping with around the house; I tried my best with my schedule...at least I thought so). The boss at the place complimented and praised her quite often, where I wasn't at home and didn't even ask her about her job much (I was jealous; that was supposed to be ME working there). She fell in love with him; she put on her ENQ that she loves working and she needs to work with her spouse in order for her to be happy.<BR> Adding to this were that I was very unhappy with my job (never discussed it with her) and would really get upset about a lot of things because I felt I never had time to be home and was left out of activities. It would upset me when I would come home on Friday night and the house would be full of kids spending the night; I was upset with that because where was my time with the kids? She got to see them much more than me, and it wasn't fair (ME: selfish, ignorant, etc.) I wasn't always angry, of course, but angry often enough to make things miserable for myself and everyone else in my family. I tended to withdrawal instead of trying to change things. I didn't know how to go about doing it and I was in a holding pattern for her to get out of school so things would change. It didn't ever get excruciatingly BAD, but it was bad enough to destroy a marriage, a family, and a friendship I once had with my W. NO COMMUNICATION turned into a seven-headed monster that couldn't be ignored, even though we tried.<BR> Only a situation such as the one we're in presently could serve as a wake-up call. Do I understand now? YES. Am I a basket case? YES. Do I love my wife? TO BE HONEST, I don't know anymore. I say it, but I don't mean it. I don't know if I've ever really meant it, and she's told me she was never sure if she loved me.<BR> Ok, now my story is turning into a book <BR>We married at a very young age; we had dated for two years, but were careless at one point and ended up getting married (1990) when she was 3 months pregnant with our oldest daughter. I have thought about that time and time again, that I was sure I'd have asked her to marry me if that didn't happen to us. I don't feel sure about any feelings right now, though. She gave up school to be home with the kids, and I started school/worked in an attempt to give us a future. She would go back once the kids were older. She did end up going back in '91, 2nd daughter was born in '92, she went back part-time in '95 and is still chugging along (and hates being a 30-year-old college student with a passion; she doesn't like the degree program she's in, but decided to settle on it since she had changed her mind 3 or 4 times previously). She worked part-time at a few meager jobs over the years, but never more than probably 6 months total in the first nine years of our marriage.<BR> Her job with the OM's company has provided her with a sense of identity, a feeling of accomplishment and success, and almost everything else that was missing from her life. And I wasn't happy for her because I felt that was supposed to be me, and I resented her for only being happy when she was working. She wasn't happy at home, either...everytime I came home she was either in a bad mood because of cleaning, the kids acting up, etc. or was drinking. I hated her for drinking when I wasn't there; we only used to drink together, but she was doing it to escape the loneliness and resentment she felt in her life.<P> So there it is...I may have missed a few things, but I'm sure I hit the most important stuff.<P>What do you want for your life?<BR>I WANT TO BE HAPPY, I WANT MY WIFE TO BE HAPPY, AND I WANT MY CHILDREN TO BE HAPPY.<P>What kind of person do you want to be?<BR>NOT THE PERSON THAT I DESCRIBED ABOVE. I WANT TO BE A PERSON THAT IS ABLE TO MEET THE NEEDS OF MY KIDS AND OF MY SPOUSE, BECAUSE NOTHING IN THE WORLD IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT.<P>How close are you to being the person you want to be?<BR>I'M IN TRANSITION, BUT I CAN SEE MYSELF BECOMING THAT PERSON MORE AND MORE EVERYDAY.<P>What do you want for your girls?<BR>I WANT THEM TO BE HAPPY WITH THEIR LIVES. EVERYTHING ELSE WILL FALL INTO PLACE FOR THEM AS LONG AS THEY ARE HAPPY WITH THEIR SURROUNDINGS AND WHO THEY ARE.<P>How big of a role do you want to be in their lives?<BR>I WANT TO BE LOVED BY THEM AND TAKE CARE OF THEIR WANTS AND NEEDS. THE PAST 4-5 WEEKS HAVE BEEN GREAT FOR ME IN REDISCOVERING MY CHILDREN. IT'S GREAT TO BE A DAD AGAIN.<P>What lessons do you want them learning?<BR>LESSONS IN LIFE (good or bad) THAT WILL HELP SHAPE THEIR PERSONALITY AND BECOME A BETTER PERSON FOR IT. AS LONG AS THEY LEARN FROM IT, EVERY LESSON IS GOOD.<P>How do you view your wife?<BR>AS AN EXCELLENT MOTHER THAT IS ALWAYS ON TOP OF THINGS; I CAN'T SEEM TO VIEW HER IN ANY OTHER WAY AT THIS POINT.<P>Is she your partner or just your need filler?<BR>WAS MY PARTNER, ENDED UP BEING A NEED FILLER LATER ON<P>Is she worth some time, effort and work?<BR>I'M STILL WORKING ON FIGURING THAT ONE OUT<P>Does she have to be what you want her to be or can you accept that change and growth are needed on both parts?<BR>I AM VERY OPEN TO ACCEPTING CHANGE AND GROWTH, BUT I NEED TO DO IT FOR MYSELF FIRST BEFORE I CAN EVER BE HAPPY WITH SOMEONE ELSE<P>Is TIME, PATIENCE & EFFORT more difficult out of lack of love or out of laziness and selfishness?<BR>TOUGH ONE. I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION OF ALL OF THE ABOVE; I DON'T KNOW IF I LOVE HER ANYMORE, WHICH MAKES ME LAZY IN WORKING TOWARD ANYTHING. I'M SELFISH FOR THINKING 'HOW COULD SHE DO THIS TO OUR FAMILY?' BECAUSE MY 'VOICE OF MORALITY' IS BATTLING WITH MY 'VOICE OF UNDERSTANDING WHY THIS HAPPENED'.<P> <BR>Understanding infidelity...Please explain what you meant by overly harsh?<BR>I FEEL THAT I WASN'T AS BAD AS SHE MADE ME OUT TO BE IN THE ENQ, BUT THAT'S MY FEELINGS ON IT. IT HURT TO SEE SUCH BAD MARKS ON JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING. I TRY TO NOT TO DWELL ON IT BY UNDERSTANDING THAT SHE'S BASING IT ON WHAT SHE'S RECEIVING AT THIS MOMENT FROM THE OM.<P>Does that mean that you know the whole of what led to this current marital state or are you just feeling that she thinks it is just all your fault?<BR>YES, I BELIEVE WE'VE COVERED JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING; THAT'S WHY I LISTEN 'TO A POINT', BECAUSE WE KEEP GOING OVER THINGS ABOUT ME AND IT HURTS TOO MUCH. WE'RE BOTH EQUALLY AT FAULT, BUT I FEEL AS IF I'M GETTING THE BRUNT OF THE BLAME.<P>WHAT DO YOU THINK about what you could have done better? WHAT DO YOU THINK about what she could have done better? HOW could you both start being a "team" in the marriage instead of the way things have become?<BR>WELL, WE WERE A TEAM BACK IN THE DAY; LACK OF COMMUNICATION RESULTED IN LACK OF AFFECTION, UNDERSTANDING, ETC. WE STILL WERE A TEAM REGARDING THE KIDS AND THE HOUSEHOLD STUFF, BUT WE WORKED TO GET THINGS DONE INDEPENDENTLY OF EACH OTHER (EXCEPT DISHES).<P>"He did not consider it an unbalanced relationship when I worked fulltime AND did all the housework, the finances, etc. by myself, though....funny how people's thinking process works sometimes!!!!"<P>(Sheba, a clinical example of a husband taking everything their wife does for granted; you don't see it getting done, so you assume it happens all by itself....I'm guilty of that and I now know everything it takes just to keep a house together, let alone go to school and try to work!)<P> <P>"If it's one thing that I learned it is that when you are afraid to speak up about something, stop and realize that the result of NOT doing so could far outweigh any disharmony at the moment!!"<P>(Sheba, great advice...thanks!)<P><BR>"You BECOME a better person...or don't bother!!! Her reactions to it are not a factor in your thinking really, they are just a great fringe benefit!!!"<P>(then that makes it worth it for several reasons...thank you)<P><BR>"Loving your wife...THIS really disturbed me!! What do you mean Yes But....there are no buts........ What did that mean? Are you saying that only if you get something out of it all the time you will love her? Are you saying that you can't stick by her through the worse - only the better? If that's the case - do you really think that what you had for her was truly love?"<P>(that is the 'BUT'...maybe it was a partnership, a friendship, two people held together by a particularly difficult situation. I relied on her for a lot of things, I miss being with her, I am devastated that she is living elsewhere, and most of all I feel awful for the kids. Is that love? NO. I miss sleeping with her and the sexual relationship, I miss the financial and domestic support she provided, I miss the teamwork we had in working with the kids, I miss the little bit of time we spent together...is that love? NOPE. I can't really say why I loved her; we shared some interests (music, travel, photography), she's a beautiful woman with an innocent, youthful look and aura; we used to have fun together. I always told her it was the strangest feeling making love to my best friend; we used to talk. I used to buy her flowers when she least expected it. I liked to leave her notes saying HAVE A GREAT DAY or I LOVE YOU in the middle of her notebooks. I liked to wrestle with her. We liked to play board games together (never got out much). When we did go out, we'd usually hang out with my friends, because they were her friends too and she never seemed to care much about women friends; we always seemed to have a good time anyway.<P>"Can you separate the actions from the person?"<BR>(I DON'T FEEL LIKE MY RELATIONSHIP WITH HER IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SURVIVE THIS. There's a song titled 'August & September' that asks "Was our love too strong to die, or were we just too weak to kill it?". I JUST REALLY FEEL LIKE I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ANYMORE...)<P><BR>"A lot of getting through this is PERSPECTIVE....."<P>(MINE IS SKEWED AT THIS POINT...)<BR> <BR>"Oh my, but I think I have written another novel....sorry!! I am kind of wordy sometimes!! I hope that I have given you some kind of direction here though.....I really want you to take some thought process time."<P>(NO, THANK YOU FOR THE NOVEL, SHEBA...I DO NEED THOUGHT PROCESS TIME; I APOLOGIZE FOR MY OWN PERSONAL NOVEL, BUT I OWED YOU SOME RESPONSES AND MAYBE WRITING THEM OUT HAVE HELPED ME GET A CLEARER PICTURE...I'LL CHECK OUT SOME OF THE THREADS YOU RECOMMENDED AND I'LL TRY TO COME TO A CONCLUSION OF WHAT I WANT AND WHAT IS RIGHT. FOR NOW, I NEED TO QUIT BEATING MYSELF UP).<P>take care and God bless!<P>theo<P>

wow, just reading my last post...self-therapy, I guess. Sorry! <BR>I read through Hannah's thread and some of the others you mentioned, Sheba (btw, there's big money in comedy/sitcom writing if that isn't already your career). The threads helped a lot; it's decision time for me.<P>ciao',<BR>theo<P>

hey, I'm a MEMBER! (just noticed) When does my card arrive? Can I get free cheese with my fries at Steak 'N Shake or discounts on trip-tiks that no one ever picked up from AAA? That'd be great...a vacation with no destination...<BR> Nah, the benefits of the freedom of this site are about the best thing anyone could ever ask for. Thanks to everyone...<P>theo<BR>