First and foremost...I know that right now, I am not Being a better Arik.......I have to say that I have been asking myself the above question a lot. Do I care how this all turns out? Do I want my marriage to be fixed. I already know that Chrissy wants no part of me, so, I'm not hanging on to the possibilty of renewal. I don't feel comfortable saying what I feel about this whole part of me 'cause I know I won't get anything but grief. The other side of me says that I'm hurting Nicole too much for anything to be resolved. Do I want it resolved? Am I just looking for a way out, as some of you have mentioned? Do I not want to look like the bad guy here? I can't answer any of these questions for myself. I think it would be best for us to separate. This way Nicole doesn't have to look at me daily, and I can see if the absence from her is what I want. Is this a good idea? I am beginning to notice some of my more rebellious characteristics coming back, ie; wanting more tattoos ( I love 'em), another earring, more frequent drinking, aggressiveness. These are all the things that being with Nicole has kept "in check". What is going on? Some days are good, some are worse. Oh, Frank, is this where I should cry now or what?

Arik,<P>Read my post to you on your "Joke" thread.<P>JL

Arik,<P>You know my... 17yo says the asks the same thing...<BR>"Do I want to look like the(a) bad guy"... when he talks about his High School relationships...<P>Arik... you're not in HS anymore!<P>No... <B>separation isn't the answer</B>... it's <B>flight</B>... in order to avoid the "<B>fight</B>" of your life... and Nicole's too. Hard to believe but there are good fights!<P>I really feel like I am talking to my 17yo when I respond to some of your posts...<P>You put so much effort into "questioning"...<BR>what to do... what's right... what's wrong... where to do it... when to do it... who's going to think what...<P>Stop the questioning... get out of that mode...<P>If you put just half <B>that</B> effort into...<BR>1. working through your withdrawal symptoms (Nicole will help... being a little <B>more</B> patient herself)<BR>2. start the recovery steps with Nicole<P>Take the four rules to guide marital recovery <B>s l o w l y</B> ...<BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Protection:</B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Care:</B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Time:</B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Honesty:</B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<BR></OL>They won't overwhelm you if you go <B>s l o w</B> !<P>You're expending so much effoet agonizing about "what to do" instead of doing it...<P>You can reap the rewards and see some results only when you <B>do</B> something <B>proactively</B>. Accomplishments <B>can</B> propel you forward.<P>BTW... I forgot to tell you... <B>we</B> still love you... and Nicole too! <P>Jim

just a very quick reply, as I gotta bring the spawn out to a B-day party...<BR>1st.. Yea tattoos! (got 17 myself - yes it was a hobby) why not get more if you want em? Just avoid the forehead and you'll be ok. <BR>2nd.. I joined a 'combat club'- and found it to a marvelous release... we don't meet as often anymore , but there's a way to get the ol' aggression out. I think I remember you saying you had some talent there... (so many posts I get confused) The combat club I joined was open style, so it never ever got boring- sparring is that much more fun when you don't know what's coming at you (striker vrs grappler)... Also, padded swords and other 'edged' weapons were introduced last year... wow. <BR>Got lots more to say about hobbies as a marriage saver but I gotta go...<BR>ttfn<BR>Deut

Arik,<P>I like both NSR's post and soulloss' post, too. <P><BR>Doesn't the 'rebellious" part of you feel like a teenager?? The tattoos and earrings, too.<P>My H had one earring. In the middle of all this mess, he decided he wanted a second ear pierced and a tattoo. I had previously resisted BOTH. So, I went with him to get the second ear pierced. I also went with him to the tattoo parlor and he checked it out. To me, tattoos are NOT IT. But, if it was THAT important to him, by golly, I was going to support it - after all HIS body. Know what - he STILL hasn't gotten a tattoo. I think he was just "testing" me for support. Remind you of how a teenager "tests" his parents????? There is alot of parrallel between how a person acts and thinks during infidelity and teenage rebellion.<P>you are pretty confused right now. You and Nicole both are looking for the quick answers and solutions - an end to the pain NOW. Dearest friends, NONE of life's crises EVER have quick fixes and easy solutions. Think of death of a parent, kicking an addiction habit, loss of a job, loss of a child, having to endure a major illness, on and on. <P>These events, like infidelity and the repair of the marriage take a LONG time to heal. The process is fraught with ups and downs. The road to recovery not only winds, but many times, it DOUBLE BACKS over itself and ground is lost. But that ground CAN be made up again if you keep forging ahead.<P>I think both you and Nicole have a little bit of unrealistic expectations for where you both need to be at this early stage. Give yourselves CREDIT and room to manuever here. It is just too soon to have it all figured out and all "over with" at this point.<P>STILL pulling for you....<P>Roll Me Away<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Arik.<P>Running won't solve anything.<P>Pulling for you.<P>Lori

OK Arik-just go, blow it all to heck, is that what you want to hear? I guess that's why your posting on MARRIAGE BUILDERS! You want some one to tell you that it's ok to blow your marriage to hell, that it's ok to run around acting like some degenerate born again punk, and that life will be fine-SORRY. The whole reason you post here, weather you realize it or not is the fact you actually care about your marriage, but your still trying to run away from something or someone (maybe yourself?) and your waiting for Nicole to tell you it's ok that you leave and that things will be fine. And if Nicole thought that was what was in your best interest I am sure she would have done that long ago, just by the way she acts. But she loves you too much to see you throw your life down the toilet and is counting on you to be a good father to the kids.<BR>Tell me, what would you tell your son if this was him???????<BR>Well, no one here is going to give you permission to leave that relationship, it's not the nature of the board. You need to really do something different try doing it with Nicole-my H and I started actually playing together again after he made the decision to stay. We started doing things for us again. It is great! We are young again and together again.<BR>You could do the right thing and still live a good life, but you need to decide what is right and quit waiting for someone else to give you permission to screw up your life.<BR>I am sorry if I sound so hateful. I don't mean to be but I feel I need to be a little harsh to get across to you something important that your missing.<BR>God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>

Let's play out an all-too familiar scenario (whether you care to believe it or not)..<P>Husband finds someone that he is attracted to and acts upon this. Physical and emotional relationship ensues. He believes he loves the OW, but he must know (doesn't he?) that all relationships go through the romance phase, and it's not indefinite. This is part of what he perceives as "love". He becomes very juvenile and selfish and says VERY hurtful things to wife. He then decides on separation, because he "just cannot make up his mind, he is torn". Then he leaves and realizes what a mistake he has made, but oops! Too late, wife realizes that she just may not want to be married to a man who acts like this and who displays only selfish, self-gratifying behavior (I would venture to say even emotional abuse). <P>I was where you were, I was behaving selfishly, I was wracked with guilt. So I did decide to work on my marriage, but my affair left a path of destruction that was enormous. I thought I was the only one in the equation, my feelings were paramount, all consuming. In reading how you protect the OW, I wonder how you can put Nicole through this pain. You have to address those problems within yourself, denial is just a mask, and I see how you deny your actions as not wrong. Are you afraid what you might find if you do try to seek help for this behavior? Or do you really think this is you? I mean come on, contact with the OW, joke or not, it's WRONG. Because ANY reminder of this OW is one more reminder to your wife of your affair. It's painful, horribly so. You can run away your whole life, but you have some major issues to work with within yourself before taking any steps forward in your marriage. <P>I think you're taking Nicole for granted BIG TIME. What would happen (hypothetically speaking) if the roles were reversed, and she were in your shoes? Could you be responsible, take care of everything as she has, and try to be loving and help her through withdrawal during this time? Running away from your marriage will not make your problems go away. Separating will only exacerbate these problems, because you're not dealing with the real issue here. And I'm kind of thinking you must know what that is.<p>[This message has been edited by Connor (edited December 04, 1999).]

Conner-very good! Bringing this back to the top!

All that I can say is that you make me very mad. Be a man and try harder to be an honerable and committed person. You are an adult----act like one. I'm sorry, but I have read your posts and they change so much. One minute your this and the next your that. Get into some serious counseling.

Arik, if ever you feel like you want to write or converse but not 'post', my email is...<P>humbled_2000@yahoo.com<P>(this goes for anyone here, too)<P>deut

OH YEAH!!!! I really had to chuckle at the "infidelity behavior = teenage rebellion" comparison! DMac calls it being "Bad As I Wanna Be". In fact, his behavior the last couple of years was how *I* knew he was ripe for an affair - or in one - moody attitude, lots of drinking, lots of new music (being played ALL THE TIME), grew a goatee (which actually delighted me ), new cool clothes, staying up all night on the internet (uh-ohh...)(and the rest, as they say, is history ). So how did I know this new teenager in my house added up to maybe-an-affair? Because that's exactly how *I* was acting when I had *my* affair! Let's just say I recognized the signs.<P>My theory: I believe that people tend to grow emotionally in explosive "spurts", rather than in steady increments. When they're due for a spurt (i.e. haven't been growing as a person, and/or not understanding or tending to their own essential emotional needs), they start feeling stale & stifled & restless. They start acting out (Bad As I Wanna Be - The Teenage Years II). They're feeling a little angsty and a little rebellious. Watch out - at this point, they're gettin' ripe for the picking!<P>Eventually, along comes somebody who seems to tap into these unmet emotional needs (which are really thirsty by this time). Blammo. Suddenly, everything that's wrong with life is suddenly the spouse's/marriage's fault. After all, our marriages are so central to our lives, it MUST be a problem marriage, right? Big, fat, easy target. Plus, now you've found your SOUL MATE! Who will make everything WONDERFUL!<P>But guess what? Although there may indeed be problems in the marriage that need addressing, IMHO in most cases the marriage isn't really so bad... most of us make pretty good choices the first time. The problem is simply that it's time to make some adjustments in the "roadmap" we use to navigate our lives. Maybe the notions we brought from the family we grew up in are wrong for us. Maybe we're in a career we dislike. Maybe we need to explore some things to really feed our soul. Maybe we're just growing up a bit more. We don't arrive at adulthood "fully baked" at the age of 21! *Maybe* it's a bad marriage... but in many (if not most) cases I'd guess not; and it's amazing what some tweaking (in counseling)can do to improve a "stuck" marriage. <P>*Whatever* is going on, a good counselor can help get to the bottom of it... can advise on anti-depressant meds if the strain of carrying on an affair has resulted in depression (or worsened an undiagnosed pre-existing depression). Undiagnosed depression played a *major* role in my affair - and makes it extremely hard to break the addiction to OP, since the affair is the only thing making the depressed person feel "alive". They are essentially self-medicating with the "rush" of the affair.<P>So where am I going here?! The upshot is: don't throw out the marriage until you've exhausted *every* other possibility for your unhappiness. The fact is that it's rarely the fault of the spouse or marriage; and the OP is not going to save you from yourself and your own unresolved problems. The OP is a temporary *addiction* - as hard to break as any other - not a soulmate. <P>Get some help. Educate yourself. Make the tough choices. The right road isn't always the easy one - but it will lead you to a much better thing than a life filled with the initial excitement of one new relationship after another. We all know people who have been married three, four, five times. These are people who have ground to a halt emotionally rather than endure the work and sometimes pain it takes to grow.<P>Arik, the stuff above applies to affairs in general, but one more note just for you - one big thing that has come out of all the troubles DMac & I unleashed on each other is an enormous respect for each other. At various times throughout the marriage, one of us really came through for the other. When we started counseling during my affair (which DMac didn't know about 'til 6 yrs later), he amazed me by being committed, openminded about his own contributions to our problems, forgiving, loving... he CARED. He cared enough to set his own ego aside and work on our marriage. In the years since, I've thanked my lucky stars for that over & over, and my respect for him is boundless. I see Nicole trying her best to do the same thing for you. She's got real gumption, she's got the kind of strength everyone should be lucky enough to have in a mate. Not all betrayed spouses have what it takes. This is the stuff long-term marriages become made of. DMac & I have found a deep love and respect for one another, and (oddly enough, since we have both betrayed) a deep trust in each other. We have these things because we were tested by fire and we endured. And because of this love and respect and trust, we've rediscovered a joyfulness and passion in our marriage that had been missing for many years. There are no more walls between us. We're free now to do nothing but enjoy each other. And we do! So there is a choice to be made by everyone, sooner or later in their marriage: bail out at serious pain & trouble (which I guess means bailing out eventually on every relationship), or learn how to go *through* the pain & trouble to a richer relationship. <P>(And now I must confess that there was as much dumb luck to our success as there was intent - but we did do a lot of things right!)<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Geez, Suse, you're an outright genius! Us too, by the way... and when I think about that particular shade of red I chose for my hair there for awhile, plus the fake tan, the tight clothes and the tatoo that was gonna say "OM's baby" around my navel... well, let's just say that I shoulda been paid for my services, 'cause that's what I looked like. By the way, THANK GOD, didn't get that tatoo... nothing against them in principle, but they are permanent, after all! Geez, another memory that makes me want to die a thousand deaths <P>------------------<BR>The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination.<BR>-Carl Rogers<P>

What you are feeling is mixed emotions and withdrawl. My H had the same feelings, its not that he didn't care about me it was that he DID. My quess is that deep down you do want your marriage but you just don't know how to proceed and get past all of this, could I be right?<P>You must make some positive decision and positive moves. The best way to help yourself is to try and help your W. I know that seems impossible but it really isn't. You are still there for a reason and the confusion really does blur everything but I'm sure its because its where you want to be.<P>Don't run away, things always remain and even get worse. There comes a time when we must stand up to the challange. There is an end to this, just hang on to that lifeline.<P>As far as your rebelious tendencies they will come and go, but its just a way to help you feel better too. The first thing you should do is try not to add to the problem then you can begin to work on the problem.<P>As far as being bashed, not from me even though I am a betrayed spouse. I saw my H go through so much and it hurt me to see him and I wanted to help so bad but there were some things that he just had to do for himself.<P>It is obvious that your W loves you but perhaps that isn't exactly what you need right now and that is ok but admit and agree that it is ok for her to love you enough to want to help you too. You must admire that.<P>Things do get better, try to get involved in a new hobbie and include her, work on your friendship first and the other will fall into place.<P>We are often stronger than you think and there isn't always the need to protect us, actually it sometimes it does more harm.<P>Hope I have helped some.<P>Genie

Wanted to bring this to the top...Dmac said there was some good postings in here by Suse and others ...I went back and read it and YES, it's very good stuff....thanks! Lu

Arik,<P>You have some wonderful advice here and I truly hope you print this out and really think about everything.<P>You are in the early stages of withdrawal, it's pure hell, I know. I also thought about getting a tatoo or getting a belly button ring!! You know what, if you did, it will only be a reminder of this terrible period in your life. <P>I know sometimes you feel like your going to explode, you can't deal with your head just spinning, you just want to get away, but it won't help anything. It doesn't matter where you are, even if your away from Nicole, you mind will keep asking those questions and you'll be worse off, your running away from Nicole who loves you very much, your problems and your marriage.<P>Give your marriage a fighting chance, it takes time. You need to get through withdrawal first before you'll see things clearly. Everything your feeling right now is tainted, your judgement is off, your very emotional and vulnerable and I know you feel as though the pain will never subside, but it will.