I have been on this board for 6 months now but have not posted anything before. My W of 10 years is having an EA/PA with a divorced OM. They are getting along very well. I have gotten a lot of good advice on this board and from books, and I have a business like relationship with my W, we get along okay. We are still living in the same house with our 3 kids (9, 6, and 3). I am a Christian and have decided that I will (for once) obey God completely on this crisis because I am so helpless. I am committed to restore my marriage, but W does not want any part of it. She wants to get a D and be independent and free from my control. I have never done anything unfaithful, just a lot of neglects, anger, etc… She has tried to move out several times but for various reasons has not moved out yet. I told her I will not move out and will not file for D anytime soon. I have done a lot of Plan A (improve myself, flowers, poems, letters, baby sitting, house chores, foot/back massages, etc…), she seems to be receptive to them but she has no emotions towards me and has no intentions on ending her affair. I am at a point where I think Plan B is in order.<P>Here is where I need some advice, we have a townhouse that we rented, and out of the blue, the tenants called and said they will move out by end of June. I think this may be sign from God telling me to move away from her for a while? Should I move out and may be she will see how much I do for her now. I kind of feel wrong asking for advice here because I want to obey God 100% and wait for His time and His work. But I really need a plan so I know what to do. I am praying hard to do the right thing.<P>Thanks for all your advice…<P>JEC<BR>

JEC,<P> Not much advise, but our situations are very similar (divorced OM, ect.) I have just asked my w to either commit or seperate for awhile. She still hasn't indicated what she wants to do. I think there comes a point where Plan B is necessary, if only for our own well being. I know that I am at the end of my rope. Hang in there. <BR> BTW, I won't move out of our house because of our son...she wants out of the marriage, then she moves out! Food for thought!<P>Arrow

Hi JEC -<P>I am sorry that you and the family are in this mess like the rest of us....I am glad that you found MB and decided to post however.<P>My advice is to NOT MOVE out of your home.....you and the children are not the reason for a disruption of family stability and therefore should not contribute to it in that way. If your wife chooses to change that family/home environment then let HER take that step!!! It is much better on the children and for both of you as well!!<P>Since you desire reconciliation, then you must remain steady on that course. Your moving out does not show your desire for your family.....<P>Although I am sure that you have made improvements with yourself....an important factor is also consistant behavior that provides a secure environment - both for the kids and for your wife when it penetrates the "fog" at times.<P>I wouldn't go into a plan B yet....not if you love her. You make changes for yourself during plan A - not just gifts, etc. to get her..... BECOME the husband that you should be forever..not just till she wakes up. <P>That means that you have to take a turn at being the sole inhouse care-giver for the kids...can you do that? The alternative is to let your wife live there showing them that it is OK to have an affair...get rid of people (dad) instead of working with them to fix problems......<P>I don't think that you want the children to learn that, do you? Then stay with your family in the family home.<P>I have to say that when you wrote "just neglects, etc" about the problems....I felt that this wasn't as serious to you as her having an affair is.....although it is different in that you didn't bring another person into the mix. IT is very painful and not something that can be forgotten quickly.....your wife might possibly have been hurting like you are and for a considerably longer time. It will take love, changes, time and patience on your part to allow her to work past her hurt and see that it can be different with you. Plan B will cut off seeing any changes and therefore will not give her encouragement to come back to your marriage.<P>Hope I have helped with more thoughts to ponder before such a serious move is undertaken. Yes, God may well be giving a sign for something - it would be a better choice for your wife to opt for - not you!! Then again, maybe God has nothing to do with this latest development!! I guess that is why we have to think things through to the best of our ability...cuz we never know for sure!!<P>BIG HUGS, Prayers and Strength,<P>Sheba

Arrow:<P>Thanks for the reply and encouragement.<P>Sheba:<P>Thank you for the advice. I certainly didn't mean to minimize my responsibilities in driving my W to having an affair. I have taken full responsibility for everything that happened wrong in my marriage. I believe it's a Husband's duty to give genuine love to his W and I obvious didn't. I have/am listed all the wrong things I have done to my W and repented before God and I am asking for my W's forgiveness also. She says she forgives me but that doesn't make things any better for her. My commitment to obey God is for the rest of life not just for this crisis. I see the points you are making and I agree with them. Thanks.<P>But if I tell W, she can move if she wants out, then she say she wants to take the kids. She is still a good mom to the kids. What do I do then, I know she does not have the right to take the kids, but I don't want to confront her, that will just make things tenser then it already is.<P>JEC<BR>

JEC,<BR>I don't have any really good or sound advise. Just wanted to let you know you have some wonderful people here....just to talk and vent to.<P>I am so sorry about your situation. I hope and pray that your wife sees that you are trying to be the husband that she wants. That you have admitted and are wanting to change....for not only her....but for you too.<P>We all have something to do with the downfall of our marraiges, none of us are faultless or perfect. We are only human. <P>It is the children that suffer the most from all of this. Things you are doing for your wife.....the backrubs....flowers....etc....well the children are noticing. Mine did.....when my stbx did all of those things for me...the girls would grin from ear to ear. The bad part is...they remember these things and then watched him walk out the door. They thought everything was alright. So did I. ( my stbx was the betrayer) This confused then more. Please, if you are thinking of moving out....find a way to talk to the children....TOGETHER. I think that you and your wife might find it theraputic to do so. She may hear words she longed to hear or you may hear them too. There is something about talking to your children together that can really bring out some emotions. Maybe something she needs to do is realize her actions are destroying more than just you or your marriage.<P><BR>Just my 2 cents<P>Nancy

Thanks Nancy for your encouragement and advice. My W has already casually talked to the boys (my 2 older once are boys) about us splitting up which upset the boys to no end. I suggest to W not to mention anything to the boys until we talk to a family counselor about how to deal with the children on this crisis and she agrees. My main concerns are how the kids will take the news so I want to be sure we are saying the right things to them and comfort them every way we can. I have all these little issues to work through my mind before I talk to W on what I think should happen with we are going to be separated. Pray for me. Thanks.<P>JEC<BR>

That is why I mentioned talking to them together. I think a counselor there would help too. My stbx said some pretty nasty things to the girls about our divorce. Those words hurt them so bad. I probably wasn't very good either. I told them I still loved him and had hoped we could have worked things out. He told them he didn't love me anymore and there was no way in hell that he would step foot in that house again unless I was gone.<P>It is really hard on children. Mine know and have always known it is not their fault. I never had that problem. I only had the problem of them thinking that I was perfect....did nothing wrong. I have had to talk to them about things that I have done just so they would not blame only him.<P>Just remember to talk to them in words that they can understand. They don't need to know who did what or why...just the basics.<P>I think that it is important to be honest.....I told them I still loved him. That I will probably always love him....My counselor agreed that that was ok to say that. But the cutody evaluator said that that was not good to say. So you must decide....if it feels right to you and you think that it is ok...then say it.<P>Nancy

I think Sheba's advice on me not moving out is a good one, but my dilemma right now is that I really feel it would help W to see the reality if she moved out. Right now, she basically lives off me and still lives the fantasy life with OM. If she moves, how do I be firm with my conditions (like money, children, etc…), and still show her my love for her? <P>JEC

JEC,<BR>I agree with Sheba.....it may not be a good idea to move out. Although it hasn't worked that way in my case......most judges frown on you for "abandoning" the children.<P>You need to probably start documenting everything. It is tedious....but can be a big help if a divorce happens.<P>I really hope everything works out for you........<P>Prayers,<BR>Nancy

JEC,<BR> I was in your "boat" 7 months ago. I only "suspected" my W was having an EA then, I found messages on her Beeper from OM telling her he loved her. She admitted there was an attraction but HE wanted more. This went on for a YEAR and a half as she "waffled" between us. I didn't have MB at the time. Thank ALMIGHTY GOD you do!!<BR> When she waffled, I was insecure and became angrier and started hurting back. Again, because I didn't have MB I love busted ALL the time!!<BR> We talked about separating for a while and W started looking for an apartment (Bear with me there is a reason I'm telling you ALL this for YOUR benefit) I then told W that I would move out and started looking. She was hurt, I crossed a line she didn't want me to. The talks were VERY civil ALWAYS talking about how we would just "Take a break" <BR> Well, she said it wasn't fair for ME to move out (and this place needed a lot of work and I couldn't move out AND fix it up)<BR> We decided she would buy a Mobile home that we would let our Daughter live in when we "got back together" <BR> Well, I found out she was planning to move there with OM. That he was leaving his fiancée to move there with my W. (These guys that pursue married women are something!!) <BR> Here's my point (finally) I got SOOOO mad I made her leave ON THE SPOT when I found this out, confronted OM and told him she'd need to borrow money because she couldn't come home anymore. <BR> It of course DROVE her into the arms of the OM. This is hard for me to type, She told me the other day that if I didn't do this, SHE WOULD STILL BE AT HOME!!<BR> My VERY strong advice is to STAY HOME and KEEP HER HOME as long as possible. This is MUCH harder to repair when she has FULL CONTACT with OM.<BR> IF and ONLY IF it comes to the point that ONE of you needs to leave MAKE IT BE YOU!! AGAIN, LET IT BE YOU!!!<BR> The reason? Several, <BR>1)If she stays in your HOME SHE will be the one that's constantly reminded of your MARRIAGE and the GOOD TIMES.<BR>2) SHE will pull into the drive and not see YOUR car there, smell your "sent" every once in a while, thinks she hears you, wakes up and misses you next to her in YOUR bed.<BR>3)It's MUCH better for the Children.<BR>4)If you have neighbors you are close to, she will be LESS likely to have OM over, too embarrassing, too many questions.<BR>5) You will have a better idea where she and the kids are (If she moves, she may NOT tell you where, believe it or not!!!)<BR>6)YOU will be able to heal and become stronger, strong enough to win her back if you aren't CONSTANTLY reminded that she's gone and wondering what she's up to (Like OM sleeping over is LESS likely at HOME in YOUR bed this guy may have SOME conscience!!!!)<BR>7)YOU won't have to see her packing HER stuff and taking it away, she will. It may JAR her into REALITY, not fantasy of going on VACATION!! <BR> There are more but I wanted to end on the # 7 the number of the Lord. You will need him more than ever!! I will pray for you. Please feel free to email me if you need advice on what NOT to do!! GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK <P>darrt@prodigy.net<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

SORRY THE DOUBLE POSTER GOT ME!!<p>[This message has been edited by PLEASE HELP (edited April 22, 2000).]

Please Help, thank you so much for sharing your story with me. I appreciate your advice also. But if you read Sheba's post above, she has a different view then you do. I certainly see the points both of you are making. I will take some time to sort it all out in my mind and listen to what the Lord is saying to my heart. I certainly like to know more about your story.<P>JEC<BR>

Hi JEC -<P>Sorry that I didn't get back here yesterday....storms came through and the power went out!!<P>I see that you have quite a bit to think on!!! PH makes some very valid points.<P>I think that the key to his situation and why his moving might have been better is that the separation came about with high emotions and pain and anger..instead of reasoning calmness. That is why he may feel that he pushed her to the OM. She was hurt and possibly spiteful..<P>If you keep a reasonable calm approach to your situation, I don't think that the effect will be the same. No one can guarantee that she wouldn't have more contact with OM, but I think that her love and need of the children and family will eventually overrule her "fantasy" with this guy. She will miss "home"!!<P>I feel that there are two other issues which are more important to worry on -<P>1) The stability of the children and the lessons they are shown. I could also add your being needed by them for some consistant source of love and security. They will safer knowing that they are with the parent who doesn't want to change their family. They don't want the family to change either!!! <P>2) You should be in a good custodial position should it get as far as divorce.<P>To really be able to make this decision, you need to search your heart. Do you want to be with the kids? Would you want custody if it came to that? Would it be too much for you? Would the choice of either you or this OM being around them the most motivate you to grow into a full-time custodial parent?<P>I believe you when you say that your wife is a wonderful mother...I am sure that now that you realize things you might even see that she was a great wife, too!! She is still those things, but she is broken right now!!<P>In this type of situation...when a wife feels neglected, controlled, etc. over an extended period of time - she breaks!! It comes to a point where either she proves to herself that she is more than a "wife and mother" or she will lose herself completely!!<P>I don't know your whole situation JEC, only you and your wife do. All I can offer is my feeling that this guy came along at a time when she needed to feel like a vibrant and valued woman. This guy is giving her that validation and until she sees that you feel those things about her....she NEEDS this OM!!<P>I believe that she loves you and the kids and REALLY wants her family. She cannot continue the way things were though or in some ways she will die - her spirit will be defeated. Do you understand? Does this fit?<P>The ideal is of course for neither of you to move out. If somehow you could stay in the house where you can show her you have changed and no longer will EVER take her for granted, this might go a lot faster to the goal you desire.<P>If, however, a separation is insisted upon....I stick with my original scenario. I think that she will realize what she is giving up more quickly being without it then by living in it without you. Common Sense would dictate that it is not the home and kids she wants "away" from - it is the "old" you...what prompting is it for just you to be gone?<P>Deprive her of all she desires and show her that you can be the man she desires and she will come around and not NEED the OM to feed her self-worth.....<P>JMHO - hope it helps.<P>Hugs, Strength and Prayers,<P>Sheba

Sheba:<P>I really appreciate your insight on my situation. I do understand what you are saying and yes, what you described fit my wife to the Tee. I know if the children stay with me I will have much more work but I want them to be with me and I am willing to put forth the effort. I have told my wife if it comes to Divorce, I want the kids. She said she wants the kids but will not fight me in court for them! I think your previous point is well taken in that I don't want the children to see all the "morally wrong" things that their mother is doing and think they are okay. I have asked and God has crushed my old self (my pride, my anger, my intelligence, my selfishness, my disobedient, etc…), I believe God is in the process of rebuilding me to be a Christian that He wants me to be, and I have asked God to make me the husband He wants me to be for my wife and make me the father He wants me to be for my children (in that order). I have changed tremendously and my wife sees my changes, but she does not believe my changes will last. I understand that's normal thinking on her part, these changes takes time, and I am willing to do it for as long as God wants me to. I don't want either of us to move out, and it's been 14 months since she told me "I don't love you anymore", I have tried my best to keep her. But, she has repeatedly told me she wants to be independent and free, so she wants to move out and see how things turn out. She said she does not love OM yet, but she loves to be with him. I have/am try to honor and value her as my wife and show her genuine love, but she does not acknowledge any of them. I will not give up, I will keep plugging away. Thanks again for your advices, and I would love to see if you have any more insights to share with me.<P>God Bless you and your family also…<P>JEC<p>[This message has been edited by JEC (edited April 22, 2000).]

HI JEC,<BR> I agree to disagree with Sheba. Sorry I love you Sheba and I respect you sooo much, however, (did I mention I love you?), I disagree with you although I love you WHILE and during before and after, I disagree with you) About one thing. IF she wants to move out AND take the Children, that's a different story. BUT if she wants to move out by herself I agree, she WILL miss the kids and her HOME. Let HER move. <P><BR> My friend's W moved out WITH the children and has been gone TWO YEARS. TWO YEARS with free access to "Uncle OM" they have FUN, and everytime she starts to want to come home, OM whispers in her ear "Remember how unhappy you were?" That's all it takes. TWO YEARS!! And the court MAKES my friend "Fund" their little fantasy!!<P> That said, <BR> Sheba said "I think that the key to his situation and why his moving might have been better is that the separation came about with high emotions and pain and anger..instead of reasoning calmness. That is why he may feel that he pushed her to the OM. She was hurt and possibly spiteful.."<P> <BR> Although I'm sure she was hurt and possibly spiteful on D DAY, WE really did approach our separation with "Calmness" <P> Our Marriage was in trouble, we didn't have the "Tools" to fix it. We talked calmly about separation. Some of the "Very Best" times of our Marriage came AFTER OM came into the picture. <P><BR> BUT, HOWEVER, AND THEN.......<BR> The CONSTANT reminder of OM waiting in the weeds became too much for me. I lost it.<P> I STILL stand on the idea that IF AND ONLY IF it's a LAST RESORT and separation is UNSTOPPABLE and ONLY then. If one of you is to move it should be you. OR STAY HOME WITH THE KIDS. <BR> I mean, you could wait until W finds a place and JUST BEFORE she signs anything talk to her about staying in the family home.<P> This way, your children are not UPROOTED and if you don't believe anything else I've said, the pain of "Wondering" if your W is with OM WILL bring out LB's and PAIN you NEVER in your wildest dreams imagined were in you!!<BR> I used to wake up in the middle of the night, STRAIGHT UP WIDE AWAKE, just because my mind would put a piece of the puzzle together of WHAT, WHERE, HOW and with WHOM my W was doing!!<BR> THE PAIN WAS INCREDIBLE!! It is NOTHING compared to what you are going through now. Hard to believe but true. Once/IF (And I pray to GOD it never happens) you separate. <P> THIS IS MUCH HARDER!! THIS IS ALMOST UNBEARABLE!! <P><BR> AND, if you think she doesn't want to talk about it NOW!! WHOA, try and keep the questions down if SHE gets her own apartment!! EVERY QUESTION, and you will have a MILLION questions, can be a LB!!<P> I stand on the idea that once a S moves out and starts setting up "House" that this will take a LOT longer.<BR> Remember, woman LOVE to set up a "Home" and she will get into that for a while and think it was a good idea. And ahe may have "Uncle OM" reminding her how unhappy she was. "That situation wasn't good for your children" Whisper, whisper, Whisper!!<P><BR> YOU on the other hand will be "At Home" alone, with memories EVERYWHERE and all the while having NO IDEA what your W is doing with WHOM. See the picture?<BR> <BR> I say, let HER see the memories, let HER have really the same obstacles to see OM that she has now.<BR> Neighbors, friends, family, the children, the mailman etc... She's less likely to have OM THERE than in her NEW, EXCITING (with you as a net BTW) "home" LIFE. <BR> Whew, that's my opinion, through experience. <BR> <BR>GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK<BR><P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

You need to go back and look at when Plan B is to be started. My understanding of Plan B begins when your love for your spouse starts to diminish. If you still love your W or if your love is still building in Plan A like mine is, then I don't Plan B is appropriate at this time. If you and your W are separated Plan A is much harder. My W moved out before I knew about Plan A. While more difficult it can still be done to a certain extent. Living in the same house offers much more variety and ease of doing a good job with plan A<P>J W <P>

Frank:<P>Thanks again for your reply, I do see the picture that you are describing. One common point everyone is making here is don't separate if possible. I was just getting discouraged doing plan A and thought plan B might make some head wave. But now I think I will try to stall and keep her in the house for as long as I can, and hopefully my plan A will start to have some effect on her. If and when she insist on moving out, then I will have already sorted out what I will do in that situation.<P>JW:<P>Thanks for your reminder about Plan B. I still love my wife and I have committed to loving her until the day one of us dies. I will stick with Plan A for now and pray that God will show her the truth and turn back.<P>God Bless you all…<P>JEC <BR>