How strong is addiction? What does it do to you when you are involved in it?<P>Last night my h stopped by and we started to talk and I realized just how different he has become.<P>During his affair, I had thrown my back out. I was flat on my back for 2 weeks. Probably related to all the stress I was under. OW started to harass me when h came back first time and part of her harassment was her calling me and leaving a message on my voice machine telling me that my h was hoping Cancer would kill me so he can have her and my boys. <BR>I bought this up to him last night and he got so angry because i ask him if i need to be concerned about my future. Just how far will he go to make his life complete? He just stormed out of my house and said that he will never talk to me again if I could really believe he would think that. <P>He said he did tell her that he thought I would get cancer only because that would be gods way of agreeing with what he was doing to me. It would justify what he was doing. <P>His Attorney asked him why he was getting divorced and asked him about me. Asked if i was an alcoholic, drug addict etc.. He told his attorney i was a saint. The perfect wife but he just has strong feeling for this other woman. That is his whole reasoning for this affair. <P>Sorry to ramble. My story is so long and so painful and I have so many unanswered questions that I just can't cope any longer. I'm hoping someone hear can help me. <P>All of my h family and friends know that he is addicted and obsessed but he just can't see it. He thinks it's true love. Could he be right and all of us be wrong???<P>I have been with him for over 19 years and until he met her 2 1/2 years ago, life was wonderful. Since, then all hell has broke loose. <P>If i stop the divorce he would not be able to divorce me. He has no grounds. Do you think I should do that? He would have to wait one year to file himself. Or, should i just get it over with?? That might give him the time he needs to get over this but all indications are that he does not want to..

I'm not sure I have great advice for you, but I wanted to offer my support. I do not understand the addiction either, even though S.Harley explained it to me. (meaning I do understand "addiction", I just cannot believe it is happening to my H!!!)<P>I guess it is pretty powerful. My H changed overnight. It's like she ciphoned his brain out. To me, the fact that he is so enthralled with a married woman who still sleeps with her H, who is basically a nut, who seems to have brain-washed him is amazing. I actually concider it a slap in the fac.<P>I have spent every day since D day, trying to examine myself. What things I have done to contribute to this. What things about myself or my life that made him start to believe every lie she has told him....<P>ANd I still don't get it. We seemed to have a fine marraige. I believed in him, trusted him and loved him while this was going on. We even discussed such matters. He spent time discussing values such as not lieing to the kids!!!!<P>ANyway, I have also heard hurtful things from OP's H that my H has said about me...My H has been somewhat condescending to me and the kids since this has happened. He is just different. It's like OP has brought all the worst qualities out in him.<P>I, like you, am ready to divorce. Like I said, I feel it is a slap in the face to me and the kids. He may have changed his values but I haven't. I have an adolescent daughter who is having a rough time. I would prefer he continue this relationship in a non-adulterous fashion. I don't think I am better than him, I would just feel more comfortable. I am getting stronger each day. I have learned to trust myself!!!! I can take care of myself and the kids. Maybe I'll meet a companion. If not, he can look me up when he realizes the grass is not greener!!!! I don't know if that helped you, it is just my two cents!!!!

mystic:<P>The addictive nature of the affair can be very strong. I counseled with Steve Harley for well over a year (I highly recommend him---888-639-1639), and we discussed this at length. At first, I thought he was full of crap, but as I began to observe my wife it really became obvious that the affair was mimicing an addiction to a chemical substance. She'd come back from the OM's "high"---and crash withing 24 hours. And then act like a person who realized that they were doing wrong (just like an addict), but that repentant attitude would evaporate as quickly as the high would, and she'd be waiting for her next "fix".<P>I'd suggest that while it's possible that you are the perfect wife, that it's probably not true. I'd suggest that you go over this website (and the book "Surviving an Affair") and see if there are any obvious "holes" in the marriage that you could take responsibility for. Those would probably center around lovebusters (angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty) or not meeting your husband's emotional needs. If you can figure out any areas to work on in your marriage, it can give you "something to do" while you're trying to apply Plan A.<P>I would suggest that you not divorce him. Almost all affairs end within 2 years. If you can maintain contact with him in a positive way, so that he sees you and the marriage as a viable option, this would be a great thing. Eventually, as you lose patience with his behavior, you'll need to go to plan B (a separation with no contact---in which your husband is told that you want the marriage, but he must end his relationship with the OW before you start to work on the marriage).<P>You'd be best off discussing Plan A and Plan B with a professional. Steve Harley does phone counseling here at MarriageBuilders, and he's terrific. I really recommend him!d<P>And to answer your question: he's wrong. It's not "true love". But it's not your place to tell him that (disrespectful judgement). Unfortunately, he needs to figure this out for himself.

k and tootrusting, thanks for your quick replies this morning. Your advise makes me feel better. <P>k-I have spent the past year in therapy trying to figure this out. At first my h was going with me but he eventually went back with ow when he found out she got breast implants. <P>I have read all the books and I know that something must have been missing for this affair to have occured. But, I can not figure out what. I don't want to toot my own horn but I honestly feel that my h had this underlying sexual addiction that this woman bought out in him. I have asked him over and over what was he missing and he always says it's not me but that he is just DRAWN to this other woman. She is extremely sexual and dresses in the tightest most inappropriate clothing. She has very low self esteem and is screaming for attention. She prides herself on being able to attract married men. She loves the challenge. <P>I really believe I have been a wonderful wife to my h for 12 years. We always had so much fun together. We were known around town as the perfect couple. The only thing I can think of was his high sex drive. I was happy with 2-3 times a week and he always wanted more. So perhaps that was a problem. But, after 12 years and 2 kids and full time work, I get tired. In fact I think I am more on the normal side of this issure. Apparently this OW has the same drive. <P>Any other thought out there??

Mystic77 and K<BR>7 mos into recovery, my W had a EA/w/some physical..( kissing/hugs/intimate talk)<BR>We have contact w/ the OM periodically, because our sons on same sports team. My W told me about 4 mos into recovery that it was a good thing that I had read enough S.Harley's book, his needs, her needs, that i learned about the addiction part. I didn't have a clue prior to that book. She told me she would of had a hard time making the break if I hadn't insisted 100% abstience, from min 45 days. D-Day was 9/8 , OM called once on<BR>9/27, real brief , get this, I was on the line talking to my W, he called she clicked him in, came back to me and said OM just called! I was at work and could do much. But she said just the sound of his voice was not a good thing, she did not have actual face to face contact w/ OM until Nov at a practice. <BR>She said by then the feelings had disipated and I had been replacing them with love tank refills, so it worked. We now have contact w/ OM about 2-3 times a month. Again at sporting things, we did go out with him and his W about 3 weeks ago, that was weird, his W does not know. <BR>The addictive nature, she admitted to the in love thing too, but realized now it was pure emotions. We are going good, I am thinking about some more counseling, to make sure we have done all that we can do to make sure things stay fixed. <BR>One of my Emotional needs like S.Harley states in his book, sex/love.The physical touch aspect, the very intimate event that you only are supposed to share with your wife aspect of it, this was important tome, I needed it more than she, my W is more like a <BR>3-4 times per month, I am a 2-3 times a weeker. We are still working on this part. <BR>When that part of my love tank is low, I start thinking bad thoughts, get mad, get angry all over again at the E/A. etc....<BR>its important to us guys, God made us that way I guess...We are visual too, more than you girls know. My W still doesn't understand that part, Ive tried to explain and explain.<BR><P>------------------<BR>jnvc

mystic,<P>It certainly could be aspects of a sexual addiction. That can be very hard to treat, although we have had at least one successful case around here.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> but he eventually went back with ow when he found out she got breast implant<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One suggestion is to let one of our members (D&C) have an hour alone with your husband---you can keep the pieces! <P>Seriously, if the only thing that the OW does is dress provocatively and loves sex, I'd say you have a chance to recover your marriage. Affairs like these don't typically last too long, and you can usually bet that within two years after discovery, they will be completely over. The key is to try to keep your love alive for this alien that used to be your husband, and to be able to address these underlying needs after the affair breaks up (within the realm of the Policy of Joint Agreement, of course).<P>I'd suggest putting off the divorce, and letting this drag out. I'm guessing that the affair will end: even with a new boob job, this attraction will eventually fizzle out. And although you're going to individual therapy, you might want to give Steve a call and get some advice from him; he's got a great perspective, and he's the most effective marriage counselor that I know.

jnvc:<P>Continue working on the emotional needs aspects that your wife feels are most important to her---if you're in marriage counseling, let your counselor and her focus on how she's going to go about planning to meet your needs. Don't forget that it's imperative to use the POJA to try to negotiate issues so that you both feel like you're coming out ahead. <P>And I'm sitting here biting my tongue on your "frequency" stats of 2-3/week. That would be my target as well. And as wonderfully as our marriage has recovered (and it has)---I'm 0/3 years right now...<P>Time for another cold shower...

Mystic, I think my H's problem is the same. He has a very strong sex drive. For many years we would make love every night or more. We have three kids now, and he began working many many hours (with OP who recently lost weight, started wearing provocative clothes and went on a business trip on the other side of the world.)<P>I don't think I have been the perfect wife, but I wasn't abusive, didn't have a drug or ETOH problem and didn't sleep with every man in the neighborhood. I was just home taking care of the house, and the kids..... Yes, we were down to every other night making love. He would get annoyed if I even SAID i was tired. <P>If you want your marraige to continue you should not get a divorce, at least that's the MB way. I have small children. I really do not think I can lie that long. (2 years.) I guess separation and a move might help me forget about it. Everywhere I go here people know me and my H and what is going on with OP. It really makes me feel bad about myself. HIs family and our friends would tell you that I jumped through hoops for him (but also my kids I guess).<P>Maybe sometimes people have too many needs to fill. Do you have kids??? HOw can you deal with these issues..... I think I would be able to just forgive and forget if it wasn't happening on MY time (ie the marraige)<P>But you see, I think my love bank is depleting rapidly because one of my Highest needs is honesty... He never lied to me before this. Now he has lied to everyone, even his own mom!!!! <P>I guess plan B is the best option when you get to this point. I may only be able to plan B if I can get out of this small town so my kids and I do not stick out so much.

K<BR>Thanks for the tips, no we are not in counseling, she is willing, we had 3 sessions w/ our pastor at the onset right after Dday and that helped alot, we have really committed to communication, and its working out good. <BR>I went to a M&F counslor by myself 3 weeks ago, she was good, but not covered by our HMO, big surprize huh, she also had the same Christian beliefs we did which is very important. I am still thinking about , mainly because I have some unanswered questions, mainly about what happened, she was completely open early on, she spilled everything , answered any question I had, then once things sort of went on...I told her at one time that I would not ask anymore, well..as our imaginations are, I have since thought of about 6 questions that I think about everyoncein awhile... <BR>Maybe I should just ask the OM, I got an email from him this morning. <P>AND for K what is POJA ? <BR>oh and those stats,/// they are sort wishful<BR>goals, its still only about 2/4 times a month. On a good month. I don't know how it<BR>all works in our minds, but my love account goes up when we know each other more, ( Know as in the Biblical sense!;-) <P>For Totrusting: <BR>re; needs, too many. You are right, we all<BR>have too many, we are selfish basically.<BR>Our mates need to identify our key needs, and to meet those, I think. Our pastor told us, that we are all too selfish,and we will never<BR>be able to meet all of each others needs completely. Thats where God/Chirst come to the rescue. We forgot that part. It works.<BR>The devil is just hanging out waiting for us to get weak so he can pounce! He caught us off guard for a spell, and almost ruined our marriage. I thank God that God allowed me to be paying enough attention and to be as nosey as I am to have caught my W's e-mails to the OM on 9/8. I caught the EA before it went to a PA. It was close, oh so close! <P>------------------<BR>jnvc

jnvc: POJA is the Policy of Joint Agreement: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. <P>If you couple the POJA with Harley's Rule of Complete Honesty, and you learn the skills to successfully negotiate, you'll find that you can function as a team, where each spouse can bring their "needs" up in a non-threatening manner, and that you both work together to resolve the issues to a "win-win" situation. In other words, this puts a framework around making sure your Taker gets satisfied enough, and that your Giver isn't overtaxed by too much sacrifice.<P>Don't contact the OM. I'd encourage you to discuss this with your wife, and both sit down and write (and mail him) a letter together saying no contact---EVER!!! There are examples of this letter in Harley's book "Surviving an Affair".

K<BR>Ok, yes Ive heard of the POJA just your the<BR>first who made an accronym out of it.<BR>I have read Harleys' book His needs/her needs, but not the one you mentioned. I have a tendency to down grade the effects of our sitsuation because the affair didn't go sexual yet. But this one counslor made a point, when I was rationalizing to her, she<BR>said "where does mostly sex occur?" had to think what she meant then it doned on me, <BR>the mind! Duh. My W had admitted to that part of sex, mental sex w/ the OM. There one and only intimate contact he made use of. He covered much territory with her. Sex talk. asked her questions I had never even asked, and she answered, thats what hurt. THe intimate conversations they shared, the things he now knows about her that he should not. <BR>About the no Contact.<BR>Yes I've read it in the His neeeds/Her needs too, and everyone around me has told, even our pastor. <BR>Wierd thing, I sort of like the guy, I got an email from him today. Just chat stuff...but..I wonder...is he using me just to be around her, and...is she the same.<BR>I mentioned in other posts that I made the big mistake of not teling his W in the begining, so now...if he slips , I have that hanging over him. / We are going to be around him, our kids are on the same team.<BR>Thats at least until 4/2001. We would see him about 2-3 times per month, sometimes more sometimes less. <BR>I don'tknow.....geez these affairs affect so many things. <BR><P>------------------<BR>jnvc

M77,<P>Addiction is a physical, mental and spiritual <B>disease</B>. The core of it is self-centeredness. Drug addiction is cronic incurable and fatal. It is obsessive, cumpulsive behavior that goes against all logic and reason. However it can be arrested and recovery is possible. I know, I have been clean and sober going on 4 years.<P>Affairs are an addiction in that the relationship is ruled by craving, cumpulsion, trying to control, and damn the consiquence. Same disease different sypmtom. It leaves pain and destruction in its wake, as you well know.<P>Those caught in the grips of it are powerless, meaning they are doing it against thier will. Some people however use affairs as a means to an end, the exit affair. Some are just caught in the whirlwind of self-centeredness and don't know how to stop.<P>Plan-a is a tool that does enable the betrayer to continue acting on the behavior but it also gives them a safe place in which to crash when the EMA ends. Plan-b is a tool that allows you to stop your part of the enableing, and work soley on yourself. Learn these two things and master them, they will save your sanity and give you the peace in knowing you did all you could to save your marriage.<P>K has give you great advice, he has a very good understanding of the MB principles. Just know you are a worthy person no matter what the outcome, you will not only survive this but wil thrive in spite of it.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited April 26, 2000).]

mystic77,<BR> This OW loves the challenge of bedding married men?I'd sit tight if I were you.Dollars to doughnuts,she'll dump him when she's tired of him.Women like this don't stick around for long.I know,I dated a few like this before I was married.This isn't"love",this is"lust".Hang in there.<BR> --Murph