When the girls were gone this week-end.....I got so sad.....yes I missed them, but I have realized it is because I want them and him here....like old times.<P><BR>But enough is enough. My "baby" turned 8 yesterday....and he came and got both of them for her birthday. Now it seems that he is trying to play them against each other.<P>Our oldest had a birthday at the beginning of April....He got her a few things....and when he asked where she wanted to go to eat...she told him. He told her no.....too expensive. <P>Well our 8 year old told him the same place....you guessed it...that is where they went. He got her 13 presents...with 3 more coming at a later date. Our oldest felt left out. He has been picking on her constantly and since she looks like me.....his family and himself will tell her that she is "just like her mother" they treat her differently than the youngest.<P>Well both of the girls are hurt. I guess that when they started eating that our oldest was waving a tomato on her fork at our youngests face. My H got mad and grabbed the fork from her....the tomato went flying and fell on the people behind thems table. (by the way...no apologies) Then he took the fork and threw it at the 10 year old....hitting her in the chest. Then she became embarassed and upset and started to slump in the booth. People were watching and started shaking their heads. She started to cry and kind of layed down on the seat. They both said that he kicked her....right in the stomach.....from under the table.<P>You know what....I can see her getting in trouble for waving the tomato....but the rest is totally rediculous.<P>His behavior just continues to amaze me.<P>He had them for the Easter week-end. No egg coloring.....no Easter egg hunts....just a 2 1/2 hour drive up to his sisters. By the way....he never tells me if he takes them out of the area. His sister and her H have no children.....and 2 large dogs. One the weighs about 120 lbs and one around 90 lbs. They are not used to children and seem to like to knock them down and jump all over them. His sister refuses to put them outside or put them up when the girls are there. Well the smaller one bit our 8 year old on the back...just below the shoulder. Of course it was her fault and they laughed. They actually laughed and told her she was a baby. One tooth puchered the skin and she has 3 bruises where the other teeth pinched the skin.<P>I called the doctor and they said to just clean it out and give her tylenol for the pain. They suspect some muscle bruising.<P>Our 8 year old has put on alot of weight during all of this. She weighs 77 lbs and is very upset about the weight gain. I try so hard to make her feel good about herself only to have stbx and his family make fun of her. At Easter his brother...who is quite large....grabbed his stomach and shoke it and said....boy...you must like the same kind of food I like. She was so hurt that she got "misty" eyed and then my stbx said well...whats wrong...the truth hurt? So when she would grab a chip or a cookie at the table his brother would go get the exact same thing and then everyone would start laughing.<P>Our 10 year old took her outside...to get away from them. They were playing and their ball got stuck in the tree. Our youngest grabbed a shovel stick.....and tried to get it down. Well needless to say the stick hit our 10 year old in the head. Well the family must have seen it because when they started to come in....they told the youngest to stay outside.....they didn't want any abusers in the house. <P>I have had it. They are so sad when they are with him.....they "hate" him. I am at my wits end.<P>They have tried to talk with the counselor at the school...to no avail. My stbx has gotten there first. They are labeled liars....and this just lets him keep getting away with it. He knows they are not believed and that he can say or do anything he wants....<P>He is sick<P>Nancy

Nancy,<P>How terrible. I don't have kids so am not really qualified to give advice, but I do have alot of baggage from my childhood, and I'm so sorry your kids are going through this.<BR> Can you find an independant counseler for them that they can talk to? I know some have sliding scales. <BR>Lora

Lora,<BR>They do see a counselor on a regular basis. She is trying so hard to help them....and is frustrated in the court system and with their dad. She has actually talked with him on a couple occasions....but he just sees nothing wrong in what he is doing. He flat out told her that spanking is not against the law. He admitted to being loud and sometimes becoming frustrated with the girls....but that they "deserve" it because of their disrespect to him.<P>I am so scared...this man is going to get custody of these girls....and then what? Do I have to wait until he breaks a bone before someone believes them?<P>Nancy

This completely outrages me.... And I apologize in advance if I seem too harsh... but this is just something that should never have to be tolerated by anyone. <P>These children are suffering mental and physical abuse from him. I know you are in an awkward situation.... but I would do everything I could to NEVER let him take my children again... anywhere!!! But,I know that is basically impossible for you to do... <P>If I were you, I would have EVERY SINGLE bruise documented by the doctor.. not just by calling him... but by taking the children there and letting them tell the Dr. what happened. Don't you just wish you could have one of those video cameras that parents use to catch abusive babysitters? <P>Also, being that I am VP of the PTA at my childrens school... if I or someone else on the board were informed of the Bias reaction of a school councelor... I would make sure that there were some serious questions being asked. The councelor is obviously not qualified to be working with any child...<P>You say that you missed them when they left and wished they were all back home... Was he any different before when he was home? I would hope so....<P>If my H ever physically touched my child in anger.... showed favoritism in order to make another child feel rejected.....or deliberatly humiliated them.... kicked them..... or laughed at their pain and fear... I would drop him where he stood! <P>Your H is truely sick and does not deserve to have those children. And I for one am praying with all my heart that he does NOT get custody... It doesn't surprise me that you are at your wits end! <P>I'll be praying for you and your children....

Lacee,<BR>I have often wondered if there was some way I could use one of those cameras. I have even thought about some kind of "wire tap" thing....just so someone could hear him.<P>I am going literally crazy with the school. He is so smooth. Going there and putting the snow job on them. He is sick. It is like his sickness is staring all of these people right in the face and they don't see anything. Some of the stuff he is doing to me (through courts and evaluations) is so down right blatant, that I can't believe this is happening.<P>I wished I could just pack them up and run. These whole 2 years have been a nightmare for the girls and myself. I am sure.....unknowingly, that between the girls and I we have fueled the fire. Since we do not follow his orders anymore....he just becomes increasingly more abusive.<P>I'm done!<P>Nancy<P>I have basically given up....lost hope...and will let the cards fall where they may. I am seriously thinking about giving up the fight for custody....I just can't do this anymore. I love my girls, but I can't continue to actually have to watch them suffer any longer.

Nancy: <BR>I think it's time to bypass the counselor, and start going up the ladder. Start with the principal.<P>Lacee: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If my H ever physically touched my child in anger.... showed favoritism in order to make another child feel rejected.....or deliberatly humiliated them.... kicked them..... or laughed at their pain and fear... I would drop him where he stood! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But it's OK for him to do it to <B>you</B> in front of them, right? What kind of message does this send to your children?<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

I am so sad for you... I can feel your frustration... But PLEASE..... DO NOT GIVE UP!!! Your girls need you to STAY STRONG!! <P>The downside to your monitoring him is.... If you were to use some type of device and it was found by him... There is no telling what he would do then!! Especially if he thought the girls knew anything about it!! It is so dangerous in your situation. I don't want things to get any worse for you.... <P>I am so sorry that you have to go through this. Hang in there... for your girls....<P>WhoDat,<P>OUCH!! Thanks for reminding me! And to think... I had completely forgot all about it!!! <BR> <BR>No, of course it was NOT ok for him to do it to me in front of them. Yes, my children had to HEAR it.... And who knows? Maybe that is the source of my anger on this subject when it comes right down to it... YA THINK?<P>We had a family discusion about it and He has learned from it and has been forgiven for it.... It was taken care of and NOTHING like that has happened since... <P>The point being discussed here is that little children have no defense alone against an adult... Somebody... has to step up to bat for them... and by God if it were my children being abused by my H, I'd be swinging it as hard as I could.....<P>So, if you have anything else you would like to discuss with me, let's do it in another post... this one doesn't belong to me...<P>Sorry MENTAL...<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited April 25, 2000).]

Ok, Nancy please don't get upset with me, but I have to tell you what my atty. told me. If I was aware of any abusive incidents with my son (we were discussing H giving son alcohol) I was just as guilty as H of abuse if I sat back and did nothing. <P>Call your atty. and document everything right now, PLEASE. He is manipulating you. He has probably read this in one of the books he got. Read the same book he is so you can be "one up" on him. Please, please call your atty. that is what you pay them legal fees for. <P>I'm praying for you Nancy.

and find out what is the barrier to taking those kids to the abuse shelter for children's support group/counseling.<P>The CE has no authority to prevent them from having the help they need as far as I know. I haven't heard a reasonable explanation why she has been given the authority to keep those kids from abuse counseling. Unbelievable.<P>Your children need to start telling their teachers and the principle what is going on during visitation, by only telling you - you look like a liar and look like someone who wants a blow by blow accounting of their time with their father.<P>If it is abuse that you are worried about, then get some help for the abuse for the kids. I am serious.<P>TNT

Nancy, <P>I just feel horrible for you and your girls. It makes me so mad to think they have to suffer because of your stbx. <P>I agree with Alcoholic's Wife. My atty told me the same type of thing...if you do nothing about it then you are also to blame.<P>Unfortunately, it will probably be hard to stop but find out exactly what you need to document. I'd be willing to bet that your girl's counseling records could be used if necessary. If they talk to the counselor about their dad, I'm sure they have mentioned some of his craziness. This info could come in handy for proof of your stbx's behavior.<P>I will be praying that you will get custody.<BR>Take care.<P>Tulip

I talked with the girls counselor today over the phone. She was livid. Said that she has tried....and that I have tried to get him to have a "healthy" relationship with his children and he just keeps on doing this crap. <P>She said that she was going to call the school today. I don't know if she did.....I have no idea. I know that the girls were not talked to by anyone there. <P>Linda (the counselor) said that she had hoped that all this work would do good.....but he has negated everything we have worked so hard at.<P>She had no idea who I should turn to. She is frustrated with the system here in our county.<P>I was a board member for the Coilition for Domestic Violence...but I don't show up anymore. It is awful embarassing when you sit on a board and no one can help you.<P>I asked about the girls getting back in the group. A new one for the children doesn;t start up until June...so I guess that I will have to look elsewhere for them.<P>I am not going to bother asking my attorney.....I will if he calls...but I am just going to find a place for them as soon as possible.<P>I talked to my friend today....the one who works with stbx. Seems that he is just going balistic....talking cruel about me....talking as loud as he can about our court dates and our divorce. Some of the co-workers are getting fed up. They are now rolling their eyes and asking her all kinds of questions.<P>I think that he is losing it....can't keep his mouth shut...who knows....he just might get himself in trouble that way. Also that friends brother works at the place that he took them to eat last night. She is going to call him and ask if anyone there saw or heard anything. Lets pray that someone....maybe the waitress....saw something. This could be the break I have been looking for.<P>Nancy

Nancy, I will be praying for you, your girls and the solid evidence to come forth for your good. <P>AW<BR>

Nancy, When I read your posts, I feel your pain. I have three small kids who have been devastated by this also.<P>I'm so sorry that your girls have to learn these lessons from their father.<P>My H has not been as cruel, especially lately. I have finally gotton him to HEAR thier pain and have him respond to them. My son is worried that I will get up in the middle of the night and move. He made me promise that I wouldn't, but told me his dad promised he]d never leave either.<P>My 11 year old daughter's grades have plummeted. She is withdrawn and very angry at her dad but won't tell him. He was very cold and condescending when this first began.<P>She goes to a counselor who is wonderful (like yours I'm sure) . She suggested getting him in with her (and the other kids). He began to try to make our daughter talk about the issues (she keeps telling him she doesn't want to). I think he can finally see what is going on with them.<P>Have you discussed him going to counseling with them? Or had your daughters counselor suggest it. Or how about if you go to the school and talk to the principal, or whoever it is that your h is smooth talking and try to approach this is a "I want to do whatever is best for my children, and would like your support" Maybe he will "give in" to the people he has been trying to smooth talk.<P>This actually worked with me and H in the beginnning. His whole family (and me) wanted him to go to counseling by himself. He kept refusing. I called OP (she has kids and has been presenting herself as this virtuous person who is greatly concerned aobut our kids). I gently suggested that since she herself has children she should understand and want what is best. (this was all due to the fact that my H couldn't think of what to say to the kids about moving out. I suggested seeing a counselor for advice. He didn't take the suggestion from me, but did from OP. Guess what? He is still going. It's been 4 months!!!!<P>You may want to somehow try to allign yourself with those individuals who he is alligned with even though you feel (rightly so) anger at them.<P>It is so hard for people to decipher what the truth is. It feels like a knife in my heart when I think of what the OP had to tell their office staff about me in order for them to feel OK about what is happening between these two married co-workers.,<P>But what do they know??? It;s just like I told my H. when he was defending OP over her H. I told him..."you don't even know OP's H." " you just know what OP told you aobut their marraige" <P>I guess there are always at least three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth. (I realize that in recent days I think I know the truth....but in the beginning I believed him that I deserved this!!!!!)<P>I think of you and your girls.. I share your pain.... It is such an unthinkable thing for children. They do not have the experience to understand the complexities of all of this. <P>Somehow, I am trying to make this a lesson in strength and faith with them. I do HATE my H's actions at times...BUt I will not allow them to hate him. We actually pray for him and the pain he is feeling. (they don't know any details, just that dad is having a difficult time right now.)<P>Take care

The girls counselor has asked him to come with the girls. First of all the girls don't want to.....but guess what, neither does he. When we ( the counselor and I ) finally talked the girls into it....it was their chance to talk to him with someone there to help......he said no.<P>The custody evaluator asked him to go to counseling too. He refused and told her that he was not going...because there is nothing wrong with him. She seemed upset....but of course nothing was mentioned of that in the report.<P>I will just keep taking them and keep going myself.....at least maybe we can totally heal from all of this. He can take care of himself.

Nancy,<BR>No advice - I have never had to go through any of that. My h just ignored the kids while it was going on. But I did want you to know I'm praying for you. BTW, is moving & disappearing out of the ? ? Kallie

Kallie,<BR>I have thought of that before......just leaving. But that wouldn't be fair to the girls. Also...I don't want to spend time in jail. Just wished we could disappear though.<P>Nancy

I am the mother of 4 and have been divorced for three years. I am also a registered nurse and I beg you to let the childrens' doctor or his nurse know about the abuse. They are required by law to report it to the authorities. Next time anything happens, I suggest you go to your closest hospital, and state your child was abused by you stbx and let them take it from there. I have no tolerance for any child being abused physically or mentally!!And if his family is treating your children like that, I can see that he obviously grew up in that kind of environment, so no wonder he doesn't see anything wrong with his behavior! Can you hire a private investigator to follow him when he has the children? Do everything in your power to protect those children--that is a mothers first and foremost job!!..If I had been told my ex, kicked one of my children in the stomach, he would be history--I would eat him alive!!!I'm only 5 foot and my ex was 5' 11 190 lbs, but his head would be on a platter if you know what I mean. This behavior will affect your daughters for life and it has to stop now. This will also affect their future relationships with males in general. Get help from whoever you can!!!

Child Protection has been called 2 times on him. I made a call to the national abuse hotline.....asked them if what he was doing is abusive "enough" to fill out a report. That was in June of 1999. They told me that he was being abusive and that they would call a police for me immediately. The police came and talked to our oldest and wrote up a report. He filed it with our county cp division. Nothing was done....in fact I was told that I could have gotten in trouble for filing a false report. Then our oldest daughter (9 at the time) called 911 from his apartment....and the police came. He talked with her while another officer talked with stbx. Nothing was done. Stbx told the police that he was in the middle of a divorce and that his wife still loved him so that is why his daughter called on him. Then at approx. 11:30 that evening he dropped the girls off at my house and drove away. This was on his week-end (Friday) and he had only had them for about 2 hours when she called.<P>The abuse center in our area told me to call the State Police. They came out and took pictures of our youngests wrist. It was red and slightly swollen. He had grabbed her by her wrists and threw her in a chair...then proceeded to hold her down and cover her mouth with his hand until she was gasping for air. The 9 year old was scared and called police.<P>The state police called me back approx. a week later and told me that they tried to file something with the prosecutors in our county....but they said that there was not enough evidence.<P>I have tapes upon tapes of his emotional and verbal abuse.....together with the children telling what has happened....but....<P>Stbx is claiming PAS now. Parent Alienation Syndrom. So now they ( the Custody Evaluator and GAL) think I have put the girls up to it.<P>Like I said he is a smoothy.<P>Nancy

I am so very sorry--this just makes me sick just to read of your problem..I wish I knew something else to help you and your children, I sometimes think I must be from another planet. I can't believe the stuff people are capable of doing. What has happenened to our world? I know there is an answer out there somewhere for you,and I hope between all of us here we can help you find it. My prayers are with you and your children.I want to believe God will take care of you ex in his own way and in his own timing!

Hello Mental, <BR> First of all whatever you do don't weaken to your h. Not only would it be cruel to your children but it would do even more damage than he is doing. Why? Because they are familiar with their dad's feelings and actions. If the one person they feel loves them lies down and lets go of them knowing they are being abused, what kind of message are you sending to them. I'll tell you: <BR>1. They don't mean enough to you to keep them and that you really don't care if they're abused. <P>2. You're teaching them by example that what they want isn't worth fighting for. <P>3. You're reinforcing everything you h is telling them because no matter how you look at it......you would be making a choice to let them be abused. <P>The list of negatives goes on but your thoughts need to be on action, strategies, and plans. First, I think you need to be as honest with you children as possible. Plan many things that they will enjoy and make sure it is a happy occassion. Discuss with them all the feelings you have and drag as much as you can from them while still respecting them. Respecting their thought and opinions is another critical area.<P>Now, you need to educate yourself and them about abuse of this kind. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's a lot of verbal and little physical (which always can escalate). Any thing they tell you about their visits you need to find out how it made them feel! This way you can undo the damage as much as possible while it's fresh. You focus on how little you value his opinion and the fact that you can trust his word. Point out other obvious offenses of his that aren't related to them but will provide for good example. Suggested readings are emotional blackmail by Susan Forward. Reading people by Joellan Dimitrius. Five love languages of children by Gary Chapman. I know these books will help to arm your children for the times they have to be away from you and in his presence. <P>If they are aware of his actions and why he is doing them they will in turn be less effective. Teach them how to read when he is showing signs of frustration that leads to an irrational outburst. Really get into detail about his facial expression, type of movement fast or slow, tone of voice, etc. Thus, they will learn to diffuse a situation which means you teach them how. <P>Please I could give you a million suggestions but the most important respect yourself and teach them to respect themselves. Let them know what their dad is doing is WRONG and how bad it hurts you when he hurts them. Be strong! They need this! They are fighting the one of the most harmful abuses and most easily discuised.<P>Most imporant Teach them to trust God. If you don't go to church watch some of Charles Stanley's program. Oh yea The other side of Love by Gary Chapman is great also!<BR>I'm a abuse survivor...I had to rewire a lot of myself and do a great deal of studying and reading and soul searching. Out of 4 children I'm the only one was so uncomfortable with the way I was feeling that I had to find out why. The physical abuse was nothing ....it was the looks, abrupt movements, raging voices full of disgust, and humiliation the hurt. God be with you all!