This Post comes with a Warning Label:<P>This is a long, long vent (whine-fest) and I am not even going to apologize for it. Nobody has to read it, it just helped me to get this all out so I can stop crying and feeling sorry for myself, and perhaps, to stand back and look at things realistically-and perhaps to make some decisons.<P>I have come to the conclusion that the past twenty years were a lie. <BR>After discovery (11-98) and the end of my husband's three weekend "fling" (12-98), after the birth of the OC (8-99) and after withdrawal (6-99), my husband went to great lengths to restore the marriage in spite of his alcoholism, bipolar disorder and suicide attempt. <BR>In between, there were five or six instances of severe mental abuse towards me when he would drink. He told me that he really wanted the OW and that I spoiled everything for him by taking him back-that he came back to me relunctantly because I Plan A'd him to death, that he is easy to manipulate; blah, blah, blah. He said this when he was drunk.<P>When he sobered up, he was horrified by what he had said to me and what he had done to me, begging for forgiveness and promising to go to AA and work the program.<P>I know people say things when they are drunk that they don't mean...or do they? Isn't it just as true that they say things drunk they don't have the nerve to say sober?<P>At any rate, until a month ago, my husband couldn't have been more loving and attentive. He went to great lengths to be very involved with me and into the marriage. He went to meetings. He seemed more desperate than I was to restore the marriage. I could feel myself falling in love with him all over again. I actually felt this profound joy in my heart again and felt trust building again. I saw God in him. <P>He's been on antidepressants for a months now and his personality is changing-again. He's become complacent and has stopped going to meetings. he takes no interest in our home or family. He has no interest in sex with me, he doesn't seem to want to be around me-again. He seems cool, remote and withdrawn-again. He seems so unhappy and dissatisfied-again. He does not seem interested in being close and involved like we were and I am frankly, all done.<P>I have decided that it is not worth it to me to continue giving, giving, giving and getting nothing in return. I raised his kids for him from a previous marriage and sold my house for him early in our marriage twenty years ago so we could go into business for ourselves. <P>When the business started making any kind of money at all, he spent it all on himself and the OW. Now there's nothing left and we are in danger of loosing what little is left. In fact, we have spent in excess of ten thousand in attorney fees and another eight thousand in travel expenses going to court on the east coast for these paternity hearings, and now we will be stuck with twenty years of support. So this fling, when all is said and done, will have cost us dearly, both emotionally and finacially.<P>I simply do not believe him now. I do not believe he ever really loved me and I am so embarrassed that I was so devoted to him for so long and did so many things for him. Everyone thinks I am a total fool with no self esteem or self worth because I not only took my husband back, I reeled him back while he was on the fence hemming and hawing about what he wanted.<P>My issue is: how could he not be in love with me? I was wonderful to him. I couldn't believe it when I met the OW. I was horrified I was pushed aside for THAT. I mean, it is absolutely amazing. I will never ever understand how she could be chosen over me. She has no interests, no intellect, she whines, complains, demands, she's coarse...what's up with this?<P>How could he have put me aside so quickly and so easily? If he was so devoted to me and so happy with me for twenty years, how could he give me up without a fight and INSTANTLY take up with someone new right out of the gate? How could he have unprotected sex and have a child with someone else knowing that I am not able to have children of our own? <BR>It is all so bitter and the heartbreak is complete. I am in constant mourning for what we lost and will never regain. <P>Our recovery (one year in June) isn't going well because of me and my mind set and because he is so changable and abusive when he drinks, I cannot believe anything he says anymore and I don't belive him when he says "I love you." <BR>How could he love me or ever have loved me and do what he did to me and to our marriage?<P>I dropped him off at work a little while ago and my heart is so heavy and I am always on the verge of tears. My eyes water up while I drove home asking God how all these terrible things can be allowed to happen to all our marriages. <P>I just hate the way things are now for me and just the overall way society is today. It is so completely devastating I can hardly function anymore.<P>I wonder why we are all trying to keep a marriage together that is basically (speaking for myself) a lie. Now I suspect everything and trust nothing.<P>For twenty years I was the happiest woman on the planet. My husband told me over and over every day how grateful he was for me and how much he loved me and how lucky we were and how sex with me was like brand new each time we made love. He NEVER says that anymore, in fact, I can tell he doesn't like it with me anymore when before all this happened he LOVED making love with me. <P>It is all so sad and so tragic. I miss my old life more than I can say. I was so deeply and completely in love with him and wanted only the best for him. I met all his needs all the time and he met most of mine, so I will never ever understand how he could do what he did. He had absolutely no reason. <P>Sometimes he says that he thought we were all done and that I wanted out. I look at him and wonder where the he** he came up with that bogus idea. In fact, I don't believe he ever really thought that, I think he just needs an excuse to justify what he did, because if he really looked back, he would see how I followed him around asking him what was wrong, what could we do to make things better, etc. <BR>He simply got tired of me. What's there to prevent him from getting tired of me again and leaving me again on a whim. If his love for me was so weak that I could be dismissed so casually as if I were nothing more that someone he dated a couple times, then what we had was really nothing and I was just used to serve my purpose, to raise his kids for him, to run his businesses for him and provide a way fro him to be instantly and constantly self gratified. UGH I am such an a$$.<P>Catnip =^^=

catnip:<P>While I sympathize with your pain, something caught my eye:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>At any rate, until a month ago, my husband couldn't have been more loving and attentive. He went to great lengths to be very involved with me and into the marriage. He went to meetings. He seemed more desperate than I was to restore the marriage. I could feel myself falling in love with him all over again. I actually felt this profound joy in my heart again and felt trust building again. I saw God in him. <P>He's been on antidepressants for a months now and his personality is changing-again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems that he was doing pretty well without the antidepressants (yes??). Why did he go on them? And it's pretty clear that they've induced changes in his behavior that are NOT what either of you want. <P>I'd suggest that he be reevaluated, and either be pulled off the meds or switched.<P>And I'd also advise you to get into marriage counseling to continue your progress in rebuilding. You've listed the price tag for an affair. Divorce isn't much better. You'd be doing well to spend some time and money in building this marriage back up, if that's what you want.

((((((((((Catnip))))))))))))<P>Do vent, do get it out, I am so so sorry for all of your pain. You do not deserve this pain. You threw out a lifeline to me during the acute part of my crisis and I think of you and all you have been through so often. I feel speechless to offer you anything but my warm thoughts and prayers. It is so much less than you deserve but I hope it will give you some comfort to know how much you mean to this cyber-friend.<P>Starpony<P>P.S. I see K has good advice (why am I not surprised ). God bless him.<p>[This message has been edited by Starpony (edited April 25, 2000).]

K! Thank you for your wise counsel. The problem is: is this what I want? I must admit to being very worn down and in a terrible depression of my own. Never being a depressed person by nature, I know my depression is cause and effect. Get rid of the problem (husband) get rid of the deep, deep depression? Perhaps. I just wish I didn't love him like I do.<P>STARPONY! Gawd, it is good to hear from you. How are you doing? Have you just been lurking these past few months, too? I appreciate your kind words. I hate to post when I am so negative, but it just got to be too much. I truly hope you are emerging through the muck and mire. I would like to know what is up with you. And PS-where did everybody go?

catnip:<P>You're getting worn down? Tired? My oh my...<P>That's one of the reasons I was suggesting professional counseling (I can't remember if you tried Steve Harley or not---my brain is getting addled, but I thought you had). If you haven't, the different perspective and help in implementing new ideas can give you some of the old "spark" back, at least for a while.<P>If you still love him, it'll be worth the effort. Swipe his antidepressants, take them yourself, and give Steve (888-639-1639) a call...<P>

Did you mean he has been on antidepressants for months or for a month? If the former, could they have stopped working? I just read an article today in the paper about Prozac that said that it frequently stopped working after awhile - I don't know what antidepressants your H is on, but it seems logical that other depressants in the same family could stop working also.

K-Thanks for your response. My, oh my, I do need meds I suppose. I have never needed them before, it seems ridiculous that someone else's actions can cause another person to suddenly need meds.<P>We have been in counselling since the first week of my husband's fling with an outstanding psychologist. However, I am usually the only one who wants to go. My husband wants to go, promises to go when we are in the midst of a crisis and he's gone too far and is scared he's crossed the line.<P>My husband is a very dissatisfied and unhappy man and no one or nothing is enough to please him, I have found. I have also come to the conclusion that what we had was not real and I deluded myself for twenty years. <P>Nellie: I have read with great interest and empathy your many posts. You sound as angry as I sound and feel tonight. I know many think I am lacking in gratitude since we are supposedly in recovery, however, I am questioning the validity of his sincerity-maybe that's not a good word- his changing moods and attitudes keep me off center and insecure and doubting. It feels lousy and it is not healthy.<P>He was put on antidepressants in February-a medication called Depakote. It made him so tired, he was sleeping all the time. We found a new psychiatrist who put him on something else that worked well for a month, then the dosage he was getting was no longer strong enough but we couldn't get into see the psychiatrist until May 31. I found a new doctor who will see him on the 19th-that was the soonest. I tried 7 doctors, three were not taking new patients, two would not take us because of insurance differences and one is retiring. The nurse at the HMO said there is a huge need for psychiatrists-that there just are not enough to go around.<P>

Catnip,<BR>Are you sure it was Depakote (valproic acid)? That's an anticonvulsant (anti seizure) med usually used for Epilepsy. If that's what he was on for depression, you may want to re-evaluate your MD. Kallie

Kallie: Yep. It was Depakote. The psychiatrist at the crisis unit said they had prescribed it with great success to their bipolar I patients-that it had been used for years by people suffering from epilepsy and had just recently found it managed depression well for many as well.<P>The side effects were so awful that my husband stopped taking the medication because he was so exhausted, he couldn't get out of bed. I think they were using him as a guinea pig.<P>He also started drinking again until he found another psychiatrist that prescribed a new medication called Gabapentin. He stopped drinking March 22 and started the new medication.<P>The side effects of Gabapentin aren't any better as he is still tired and he has decreased libido.<P>Do you know much about Gabapentin? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.<P>Catnip =^^=

Gabapentin (Neurontin) is still an anticonvulsant for epilepsy. Yes, they are experimenting w/ it for bi polar. I cannot take anything that leaves me the slightest bit sleepy or I turn into a ****. I don't reccomend he just dump MD or meds, but to get out of depression I used: treating my body better. I'm a veggietarian now, I started running, no drugs, alcohol, and I meditate. And no red meat. <BR>I used to work at a (how do I say this pc?) a place for pretty psychotic people, and I know that depakote is a very heavy drug. Staff felt like it was used to overmedicate to calm people & make them docile & manageable.<BR>You can go to <A HREF="http://www.healthsquare.com/rx/neuronti.htm" TARGET=_blank>www.healthsquare.com/rx/neuronti.htm</A> for more info. Ask the MD - it couldn't hurt to change his diet & meditate. Kallie

just in response to the depakote, it it used very often now in treatments of depressive disorders, and most times very successfully.

I'm with LoneStar here. I've known people who got WORSE on antidepressants. Sometimes it takes time to get the drug and dosage right.<P>As for your long-term plans, well, I'm not going to give you any advice on that. Sometimes you can do everything right, take stock, change yourself, follow the Harley methods, and it just doesn't matter. And adding an alcoholic WS to the equation doesn't help.<P>I'll support whatever decision you make, for whatever that matters.

Catnip,<BR>I'm very sad to hear that things are not going well for you and H. I don't have any good advice for you but I do want to offer my support. It sounds like your H is battling some demons within himself and is having a difficult time winning. I know it is very hard on you. I hope that your H is able to find the right meds to help him and then, hopefully, your recovery will get back on track.<P>Hugs,<BR>Audrey

I'll just add an anecdotal note on anti-deps. I went on Paxil, then Zoloft last Aug and they helped tremendously with anxiety, but Jan & Feb it seemed like I couldn't feel anything. Like I was numb all the time. I went off the meds and I feel better, sometimes it seems like I have more emotions that I know what to do with but it is better for me than numb. (Yeah, probably should have checked with a doc, but I asked for the meds, I thought I could take myself off them).<P>The other thing, Catnip, is take your time with this. I felt much like you, except I was separated again, and I served divorce papers last month. Yes, you've given him a long time...are you in a hurry for any reason now? I remember your beautiful post after reconciliation last year. And I do know how another year can take a toll--and I don't consider my marriage in recovery at all.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited April 26, 2000).]

Dazed, Audrey, Lor: Thank you for your responses. It is really good to connect with the forum again. I've kept up-been lurking, but haven't posted.<P>Ever since we went to NY for the paternity hearings, we have been unindated (sp?) with an enormous amount of make busy work through our business as our trusted distributor is taking advantage of our seemingly weak personal position by trying to force a hostile takeover of our product line. So, in addition with the heavy personal issues we face, our business is in jeopardy and we are spending thousands of dollars of $ we don't have on attorney to prevent loosing our product line.<P>I know that mt husband knows he's responsible for putting us in this position-he forced the union with this NY distributor in order to be near his NY OW back in late October 1998 when it all started. So, by his trying to get next to her he opened the door to unethical group of men who see a cash cow and are trying to steal it from us.<P>I guess my resentment of working so hard for ten years in our business and never really getting much from it has made me feel doubly resentful.<P>Lor, I have followed all your posts over the past few months-every one of them. I have wanted to contact you so many times. I read all of Guard's posts and he sounds so determined, so sincere and so humbled-just like my spouse, and I prayed for you that this was the end of your ordeal and that he had truly finally seen the truth and stopped torturing you with the push-pull, back and forth. <P>I have often wondered why you and I have stayed in our marriages and gone though so much for so long. I wondered if we were just truly devoted women, strong and focused and wanting our families intact, or if we are afraid of failure, lacked self-esteem or if you're like me, (this is really embarrasing for me because it sounds so naive and schoolgirl) and am just so attracted and in love with my spouse. <BR>This guy really does it for me. He's so charasmatic and attractive and creative and talented-and the way we are together is and has always been so....hard to describe.<P>What is so tragic is that this relationship has become so toxic to me. Just since I began this post a couple days ago, he's flipped back to involved and in love with me-suddenly I am his hobby again. But I can't take this anymore-this up down. It's killing my spirit and building resentment.<P>The only way to end this ride is to get off. It is getting near the point where I just may be strong enough to do it, regardless of my feelings and desire for him.<P>Lor, I read with interest your journey. I wondered where all this was taking you with your decisions regarding Guard and your EA.<BR>I 'joked' several times over the past few months to a friend of mine that I need a transition man to get me through this, to get me out of this marriage-that I wouldn't be able to do it alone. <P>I know that's wrong and I would never do it. I remember when I was running a deli I hired a guy to work the counter. A friend came into the deli and bit her hand and said, "My God, Kate, who is that?" I said, "That's Greg. He's been here about a week." She said, "He's stunning" I said, "He is? Oh, yeah, he is. I wonder why I never noticed it before til you mentioned it." She was bowled over that I hadn't noticed.<P>It was because I was so happy with my husband that I never saw anyone else. It was like that for both of us for 17 years and it is such a shame that he ended up feeling differently-that I could be replaced, that somehow I lost value to him-and I cannot imagine how that could have happened because of how we were. <P>What a treat for my husband to be so loved and admired that his wife never noticed a really handsome man right there in her midst. But then, I thought it was reciprocated (I had so much confidence and I was so blissed out in my marriage-private jokes, involved, warm conversations-a closeness that made us both feel so special-everyone here knows the drill, they probably had it too. I know you did, Lor. Is that why we stay, and stay and stay?<P>One of the reasons I don't post much is that my posts are always so long. Once I get started, I just kept going and going-it's my therapy. Thanks to all of you for listening and for responding. I don't know what I would have done without you or this forum.<P>Love and gratitude to all<P>Catnip =^^=<P> <P>

Catnip,<BR>During this past month, not seeing the OM, and trying to find the right thing to do about my marriage, I though a lot about what the marriage has been. Our 17 anniversary is in June. We met 19 years ago, half a lifetime. The first time my H saw my picture in a Fraternity composite picture, he said I was the girl he would marry. The first time I saw him, he was walking into our college class with each arm around a girl and laughing with them. He was (is) a knock-out.<P>You must have missed at least one of my posts, though I haven't posted much about it, because I have a hard time relating to the person I was. I wasn't a perfect wife, I betrayed Guard 10 years ago. And even though I turned away from the OM upon discovery, the seeds for my H's affair were sown (and the reaping hard). He says not as a payback, but it just made betraying me a lot easier. Ouch. I could not have done anything better these past 10 years. I kept away from temptation or questionable surroundings. After his affair began, I followed through with that for 21 months, though he had left me repeatedly, took up on and off with the OW and even encouraged me to "find someone". I KNOW that a betrayer can be redeemed--I was. And I have been so frustrated that Guard couldn't do what I did and just turn his back on OW and heal our marriage. But I also know that even though Guard forgave me 10 years ago...we didn't handle the fall out of emotions. No MB site, little discussion with friends who didn't know what to say, bad counselor. I think there was resentment within Guard that never went away...a warning to all betrayeds, including me.<P>My advice to the betrayed, don't "find someone". Don't take the comfort someone of the opposite sex offers. Just don't do it. Betrayed are vulnerable and have usually been treated awful, anyone who is anything but despicable can seem nice for awhile in contrast. <P>Truthfully, I gave up on my marriage before I really entered into the EA...but, then my H suddenly wouldn't give up on me, even though when beginning our 7th separation he left the house saying he was divorcing me...and last month the OM went for no contact until I could figure out what was going on and how I felt...and I'm somewhere between withdrawal of OM, can't trust H, H doesn't trust me, OW contacting H...<P>Yuck. Don't anybody add someone more into a bad situation. <P>We are seeing our counselor tomorrow. THANK GOD!<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Cat<BR>I too felt the way you did about my marriage.<BR>All the wonderful stuff that is.<BR>I still care and love my H very much, but I've realized that I can not change how he feels right now even if I do plan A. <BR>I don't have some of the problems that you do and if I did I might have given up along time ago. You are a trooper for hanging in there. <BR>I am still hanging on but not there for him amymore. I have backed off, we still talk and the divorce is going forward but I still have dreams of him coming home and starting our life over together.<BR>I know you think the last 20 years were a lie, but I've come to realize they weren't for me, so that is what I hold on to. <BR>I WAS happy and if I ever have the chance with my H or even someone new, that is still the kind of life I want. <BR>I'm, beginning to believe the saying" It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" Hopefully that love I felt for the last 27 of our almost 29 years of marriage will be enough to get me through the rest of my life on this earth.<BR>Don't beat yourself up, I did that to myself for many months, (sometimes I slip and wonder what more could I have done) usually within a few days I realize I HAVE done all I could and will do more as God shows me the way. For now this is the way to go, less tears and fustration. It doesn't mean I don't care and I still LOve him, just means I am taking care of myself and my kids and letting H deal with the choices HE'S made.<BR>I wish you the best and We all hang on because we do remember the good times of our marriages. <BR>Love and Prayers T.