She went out last night (oh, really?); Today my daughter and her drama group performed at this benefit that W was attending; later both (daughter and W) went to a B-day party. When I got home W was sleeping & my daughter watching TV. We went to buy the X-mas tree (we'll decorate it tomorrow) and then to an art exhibition. Like the happy family that we are not anymore!!!.<P>At home we talked. We are supossed to check our emotional needs tomorrow & I just couldn't keep my mouth shut, so I asked again for equal time than she gives her OP, and she noded when I asked if she could at least TRY to concentrate on me 100% while she was here.<P>She went to the bathroom; my daughter came downstairs and put her head on my lap; she comes out of the bathroom, looks at us and says she has an important call to make. Right, she calls her lover in front of us and although the conversation was discreet I left w/ daughter upstairs; daughter gets ready to bed and I tell her to go say goodnight to mummy; W says, here, do you want to talk with a little girl your age? My daughter starts talking with the little girl and I was ready to explode: it is her affaire, not my daughter's, and don't want d mixed in W's stuff and talking to OP's child!!! I kissed my daughter goodnight and walked out of the house, if I hadn't done this I would had said pretty nasty things.<P>Went for a drink and calmed down; came back to the house and confornted her- she still doesn't get it and says that our daugther always talks w/ our friends all the time and that what's the big deal.<P>We talked for about 3 hours, she says it's too late to start all over, insists that sex wasn't good all this years except at the very beginning; she loves me but has all these resentments.<P>I learned about things she has kept so not to hurt me. Tomorrow I'll learn more, I guess the lies didn't start when she betrayed me, but years ago. I learned that I have been acting the same way too. The conversation got bitter at times and there was no real conclusion... I am too tired to think.

I know what you are feeling and I know that the pain that you feel feels as though it is to much to take but you have to realize a couple of things...<P>This OP is providing her with an atmosphere that is simply easier to handle than the one she has at home. In my situation I lost it plenty of times, believe me but the only problem is that it was the WORST thing that I could have done.<P>Whether you see it or not, your W has a battle going on inside her soul and in some ways she is being tugged and pulled like a tug of war.<P>I can give you some really good advice but I will tell right up front it is very hard to do.<P>We often get caught up in our own pain and hurt and we can't understand why this person we have loved is doing this to us or our children. <P>But try for a moment if you can to put all of that aside. I once read a book called Divorce Busting, and I must say that I highly recommend. <P>It tries to explain the point that if you react in an expected manner that the reaction you receive will also be the same. However, if you do a 180 degree turnaround and react in other ways that the OP in this case your W will have no choice but to react in another way also. The hard part is being consistant.<P>Going through this with my H, I have learned an awful lot and I see now that the things that different ones would say or tell me made an awful lot of sense but to be quite honest I was so caught up in my own pain and wanting it to be different that I just simply didn't understand the way I wished I had.<P>Affairs, although each have different details are really very simular. I can see now that if I could've just found the strength to bring myself to this tremendous challenge earlier my life of torment would have ended sooner.<P>Here is my point and the best advice I have to offer you...<P>Now I have to be blunt with you because you have to get this point and this is VERY important. I do not know all of your story but it seems as if your W is still living at home and that is very good for you if you don't blow it. By that I mean just this... you have more time and oppurtunity to make a difference. But you have to STOP loosing it, asking for equal time, that she give 100% to you and all of that. You have no choice because if you don't she will leave.<P>There is no way she can meet your emotional needs at this time, NONE!!!! She is to sick right now. This OM is being a friend that makes it possible for her to relax. And from your post I can tell you that your are pushing her away farther and farther. even though you are trying to accomplish the opposite.<P>You must stop the lovebusting and forget about receiving and emotional support from her at this time because she can't give it to you; at least noit consistantly.<P>You have to let your anger go for now... it won't go anywhere but that is something that you will have to deal with later.<P>As hard, unpleasant and angering as it is you must think realisticly about what she gets out of the relationship with the OM and it does not boil down to sex! Don't even torment yourself with that aspect because that is not it.<P>Let me ask you this... If your W complained or nagged you about something constantly to the point that you just wished that you would shut up; how open would you be to do something for her? <P>The sex will become ordinary and run of the mill, it is just like a child with a new toy, when it is new that is all the child plays with but after time it looses its newness and the child does not pay it as much attention anymore. The same applies here.<P>You can not work on emotional needs until the OM is gone, it just won't work. But there is something you can do that will be quite effective.<P>1. Leave her alone<BR>2. Don't discuss or make any reference to OM<BR>3. Don't ask for anything personal {info, intentions, affection... nothing}<P>Just try and be nice, get along with no arguments at all. If something happens that you feel you can't keep quiet, tell her you are going to the store or something and get a grip on yourself but do not show an attitude of any kind or any kind of behavior that would leave her to think that you are upset. Be prepared for tests, with this new attitude it won't take long for her to wonder what has happened to you and then she will start telling you this & that or making comments just to see if she gets a reaction from you or not. Don't you fall for it.<P>I know it is like letting her eat her cake and have it too but that is what it is like now and resistance isn't working so let her have since she does anyway and handle it in a way that will benefit you and your daughter in the end.<P>Its hard I won't lie to you but if she doesn't have anything to tell the OP, like he started again I don't know how I can take it anymore for example, he will begin to wonder himself and start putting demands on her. Because to be perfectly honest you are giving him all the power and reassurance he needs and you want to stop giving her anything to complain about. <P>As a result, she will stop complaining, the OP will start asking questions and she will have no choice but to confess that you are getting along better. How do you think the OP will like that? Not to much I would guess. Fight fire with fire. <P>We hate to thing of our SO's as being purposefully manipulative and they aren't but the fact is she does have 2 men in her back pocket and everytime you get upset it shows that you care, and it diminishes her pressure to make a choice.<P>Right now he is the good guy, the one that is easy to be with but she obviously still loves you and your daughter regardless of what she might say or else she would not be there at all.<P>The trick is going to be beating this OP at his own game. You need to be a good guy, easy to be with, one that she will become comfortable with again, someone she can relax with as she probally does with him.<P>So then you will both be good guys, but I guarantee you if yiu are consistant and don't falter, his status WILL change.<P>Be her friend and not her H and with a little time chances are that she will want YOU to be her H again, but just not now.<P>I've heard lots of recovery stories and I have had the time and oppurtunity to see alot of stories unfold and it really is true that all affairs will run their course and end. And you can really strengthen your marriage from the experience. But there is a trick to it.<P>You must be able to realize and believe that and have some faith. You must be smart and use your head and that means it is critical that you not surcome to the hurt that we all feel and stay focused. That is very important because when we fall off the wagon so to speak, we loose credibility & our edge. It really does take patience and that is the hardest part of all I hate to say.<P>I know that this is really long and I apologize for that but I really do know how it feels and I would just like to help someone get through this faster than I did, and youn really do learn alot when yhou have the gift of hindsite.<P>HINT: For those times when we all fall off the wagon- don't beat yourself up about it just don't do it again!!!<P>Also, with all of the pain we feel we all need a little sense that we are getting back at somebody and that somebody is usually best suited to be the OP. So... this is what came to help me stay focused. I know that this can sound mean but I consider it therapeudic too. But anyway, thinking about how I got even everytime my SO had something nice to say about me to the OP gave me a sense of payback. Because they really will feel much more insecure about us, because we have history, kids, lots of memories too! So anything nice our SOs have to say about us or something we did, makes them feel mcuh worse. Here's something else to remember, they will start bad mouthing us and our SOs often feel the need to defend us because they do still love us too.<P>BAM!!!<P>Trouble in Paradise!!!<P>This is when the OP pushes them right back and does the work for you. But you have to get the ball rolling and KEEP it rolling, and that means you have tos tay focused!!!<P>Try to enjoy the Christmas tree decorating. Let it go, take a deep breath and decide what you really want is more important thatn your pain right now and do what you have to do, bite your tongue and show her a good time.<P>Sorry about this, I'll get down off my soap box.<P>Best wishes and Good Luck! Let us know how you are doing.<P>Genie

ThisAlex - Genie's got some GREAT advice there!!<P>It hurts. It's unfair. And it feels like we're gonna explode. But we're the only ones w/ control right now. And we have to maintain it. (I guess the better word is "self-control!)<P>I did get REALLY angry about the girls talking on the phone thing, though. Yuck. <P>You hang in there.<P>Lori

wow! that was awesome, genie.<BR>thisalex, i feel very similar to you, and i have the same problem with "losing it". it IS really hard, but genie is right. there's nothing i can add

Genie29 has this game sown up. Never have I seen such good advise that makes so much sense.<P>The benefit of hindsight is a remarkable tool only surpassed by the ability to relate your experiences for the benefit of others.<P>Genie does this with ease and in a way that makes it easy to understand for all concerned.<P>Well done Genie.<P>Regards<BR>Fairenough

If it is any comfort, you are not alone. My wife is also in a same sex affair.<P>The advice I read about not giving her more to complain about is right on.<P>My wife has done a 360 turn in her life. She fashions all of her actions after what this OW wants of her. Extremely obsessive. Is turning away from all of her friends and family.<P>You aren't alone out there! And when they get into affairs they become entirely different people. I've stopped believing all the "don't love you" crud until this affair ends.<P>Paul

Genie, that was great. everyone that wants their S back needsa to read that advise.<P>ThisAlex, i tend to do the same thing, I try to let everything go, but then it builds up then BOOM there I go, and it does make it eaiser for the to run to OM.<P>------------------<BR>brownphdt<P>

Genie,<BR>Good advice, Thanks.....<P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Thank you, Genie. Your message makes so much sense that I copied it and I'm saving in it this file that I have on this "matter".<P>Today we went through the list of her & my emotional needs- not because I want her to try to satisfy mine, but as a sake of comparison. I have both copies, she says she's trying to get rid of so many papers (which is truth). I am proud of myself. didn't lose it even once- couldn't, we opened up and learned things about each other and were both surprised about many things we ignored (we thought we knew each other very well).<P>I am there for her and always will; if I lose at the end of the journey I lose my wife I'll recover my best friend, this I beleive is very important for us both and also for our daughter.<P>PM987, I'll look for your posts.<P>Thank you everyone.<P><P>------------------<BR>Alex<P>

Alex, <BR>I am very happy for you and may I say that you seem to have done a great job today, you should be proud of yourself, I am.<P>Stay focused, when it gets hard and you don't think you can stand it, read that post from earlier that you said you saved, it will help you get back on track I hope. It will not be all smiles and there will be more hard days and moments but you have to keep the end in mind and not surcome to the temptation to repeat your old mistakes - that is the key.<P>Good job, keep it up.<P>Genie

Genie,<P>Can I ask a question? Here you have this really great advice for the betrayed... and maybe I'm just being selfish here, especially since I've been on both sides of the fence, but it seems like I have to do what you've said no matter which "side" I've been on. My H isn't strong enough to try. He wasn't when he cheated, and I had to do those things you said, and he wasn't when I cheated, and if I want this to work, I have to do it all again. I'm crying, "no fair" and I feel like an a**hole doing it.<P>How do I cope with that? God, how I wish that my H would fight tooth and nail to keep me. I ended it with the OP months ago, it was very short-lived, and I have to see the OP daily still (at work) and some days, God help me, it would be so much easier to just fall into his arms and skip this marriage business - <B>BUT I DON'T</B>, and I don't get any credit for it either. He pushes me away, there's someone else who wants me still, and I feel alone in my own house, alone in my life. How do I deal with that?<P>Sorry for intruding, ThisAlex. Tell me to shut up! <P>------------------<BR>The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination.<BR>-Carl Rogers<P>

new_beginning,<P>You're not intruding...¨"mi casa es tu casa"... it takes one to get the ball rolling, if it has to be you and you care enough go ahead, even if it doesn't work: years from now you may regret not having tried; if it doesn't work you'll know that you did your best.<P>I have no advise to give, except perhaps to send your Taker to sleep and have your Giver take take over.<P>ThisAlex<P>------------------<BR>If someone hurts you, betrays you or breaks your heart, forgive them because they have helped you learn about trust and the importance of being cautious to whom you open your heart to.

Alex,<P><BR>I am astounded by the memories your grief brings back. Not my grief, but what I watched my beloved H deal with as I dragged him thru weeks and weeks of the same s*&^ as what your W is putting you thru. Sorry to state the obvious (it's a gift), but this is such a painful, destructive time for you.<P>I understand what both you and W are going thru. ZRIght now, she may be confused, not truly sure of what she wants - this is likely all new to her in a number of ways and she isn't sure how to play the game she started here. She KNOWS how much she is hurting you - but this is like an addiction for her. Not that she is in anyway deserving of sympathy or pats on the shoulder. But, Alex, I'll bet she is a different person right now, and at the moment, unwilling to find the reserve of strength it will take to make what my H calls "The hard decisions."<P><BR>Remembering how I felt when I was with the OM out all night (or damn near) - fully aware of what H was most likely thinking and feeling. I realize now that I had felt a lot of anger that I might have supressed and that I had become capable of "Shutting Off" emotionally. I didn't let myself think, and if I thought about stuff, I didn't let myself feel. <P><BR>I'm not saying that you did anything to make your W angry, that's not my point. My purpose was to offer you some insight into what your W may be feeling (or NOT feeling) right now and how she is capable of doing the things she is doing to you. <P><BR>As for me, six months later, I still bury my head in my H's lap and cry harder than I have ever cried before, telling him how horribly sorry I am for my hurtful actions. He has long since forgiven me, but damnit, I'm STILL sorry!!! If only I had a time machine! <P><BR>I guess I kinda vented here about my own stuff, sorry Alex. I do hope that maybe this sheds some light on what your W could be thinking and to tell you that even in the face of some of the most horrid situations, there is hope for the future. <P><BR>I hope you stick by her as long as you still can and remain sane. I hope the three of you can pull thru this. Good luck, H and I wish you well, Alex.<P><BR>Khyra