Hi everyone,<P>I just read Mental's beautiful poem to her stbx. It was sad, but says it all very succinctly. She mentions that she would have never suspected her H as a cheater. This seems to be a common feeling amoung us who have been betrayed. We would have never suspected our H's or W's of doing such horrible things to jeapordize our relationships.<P>My H has always critisized other married men for flirting and fooling on the side. He adamently hated this type of mancho man behavior, yet we have suffered the worst ourselves. We have fallen victum of the very thing that he dispised. It seems that his eyes were wide open when he entered his affair with a gal who is 26 years his junior. I too, would have never suspected that he be the one to have done this. Does he suffer from some kind of personality trait that allowed him to do this even though it was against his morals and norms? <P>My question to all of you is; are we, that have been betrayed, too unsuspecting and niave to have thought our spouses capable of this type of behavior? I have met both men and women that I have felt capable of cheating, but I would have never felt that my H was one of those men or women. He does not flirt, or touch others in public, nor does he have a history of lieing to me. But the affair changed this all and it seems to in many histories of people who are not the typical cheaters. <P>I know in my heart that I am incapable of cheating in a marriage. What made my husband so able?<BR> <P>

I hear what you are saying. Your husband sounds a lot like me - I always treated women with respect, didn't flirt much with them, lead them on, touch them, or talk suggestively to them in public. I was a "good" boy, although I have fielded a number of amorous approaches from women, I always said, "I could not betray my wife." I felt very secure in this until...<BR>I felt my needs were not being met, and felt my wife was totally shutting me out of her life. Incidentally, she felt the same way about me. I told her if she didn't make me more of a priority in her life, I would find someone who would. She did not change. I went looking... me, Mr "I could never cheat on my wife."<BR>Don't think you yourself are immune! Dr. Harley is right - anyone is capable of having an affair if they become so unhappy in their marriage and their needs don't get met...<BR>After all, I could never cheat on my wife...... but I did.<BR>Stay strong, stay alert. Don't set yourself up for a fall.<BR>Pilgrim

Dear Pilgrim,<P>Thank you for answering my thread. Your wife was at least warned that her lack of meeting your needs was ruining the relationship. She should have heeded your threat. How easy things could have been fixed before the big Affair.<P>My husband's needs were not being met also. I had (knowingly) shut him out of my life because he was not meeting my needs. I whined to him constantly that we needed more time together and that his recreational hobbies (playing in a band) was hurting us. My husband is an astute fellow, but he got caught up in the "feel good" relationship with a 19 year old girl (groupie) He is 45 (Daddy?)and liked the admiration that he received from her.<P>I, on the other hand, could not admire any of his life choices and further shut him out of my life. In the mean time, I (amazingly so) got pregnant with our second child.<P>H was not going to continue affair and got out in time to help rebuild our marriage (yeah Dr. Harley). It was just so unlike him so I am glad to hear that were are/were the same way. <P>

Hi Waffles,<P>I've often wondered the same thing. Is it a personality trait? I just don't know. My H, like yours, despised cheating, saw the effects first hand when his mother cheated on his dad (he cried in front of the kids), & it broke up the family. My H made it clear to me when we were first married that he would not tolerate infidelity. He was very suspicious of me at first, even though I did nothing to warrant it. <P>Then, after 20 years of a peaceful, & happy marriage, HE enters into an affair with a woman 20+ years younger (just like your H). I had no warning. He never told me he was unhappy. He told me he didn't realize how unhappy he was (copout!). Just like you, there were needs not being met on both sides (his- admiration, mine- financial support). Found this out much too late. So, yes I guess you could say we are guilty of niavete. But, probably more guilty of lack of communication, and ignorance.

It was wierd, I got back from the market and had to lay down for a few minutes because I thought I felt a migraine coming on. All the sudden this word comes to my mind, "wafflestew" that's what it sounded like. I thought, Now, why would her name come to my mind. I came here, and her you are!<P>Hmmmm....<P>I think anyone, even, dear one - you, is suseptible (sp?) to cheating. I never thought I would either. Honestly. Even when my H cheated, I didn't cheat. I patted myself on the back for almost 13 years for remaining faithful in the face of infidelity... then WHAM! there I was. I'm not saying that I had no control, or that I use that as my excuse, but you just never <B>really truly</B> know until you're faced with it.<P>~Sheryl<BR><P>------------------<BR>The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination.<BR>-Carl Rogers<P>

Sidney-<P>I think that you are right that it probably stems from not realizing your unmet needs. Oh where was Dr. Harley when I needed him the most. The time for Dr. Harley is before the marriage suffers the big A. I wish more people could insure their marriage by reading his philosophy. Thanks for your input.<P>NB-<P>I guess I do have to agree with both you and Dr. Harley that anyone is capable of affairs. Sure wish it wasn't so though. I sort of like integrity and pride and trust. Goodness knows, I am insecure enought to begin with. I do feel, however, that I am more prone to "thinking" about an affair since being hurt by one.

I think anyone can have an affair. My first husband was a sex addict. Had sex with another woman two days after our wedding. Went on to sleep with more than 20 women during our marriage. After experiencing that I thought I was truly impervious. He was in the Navy, and was gone constantly. He was even gone for 9 months at a stretch, still no infidelity on my part. On top of that, I had worked and studied around all men (I'm an engineer). Never had ever cheated on my boyfriends or my second husband, until...<BR>When I met the OM, I had plenty of reasons to believe I was safe. 20 or so years of "good" behavior to back me up. The mind is a funny thing. Your marriage happens to be weak, maybe you don't even know how weak it is, then someone comes along and offers you that glass of water you didn't even know you were thirsty for. Then BAM, you're sucked in. The minute someone thinks "it can never happen to me", is the minute it could happen. They say the price of freedom is eternal vigilence. I believe the same can be said for marriage.

"They say the price of freedom is eternal vigilence. I believe the same can be said for marriage."<P>Wow, what a perfect analogy!!<P>It's funny you mention that glass of water thing. That's exactly what my H said when he said he was caught off balance.<P>You know, since this crisis has hit me, I feel like I have a mission. I'm kind of a self appointed ambassador telling everyone I know who is in a peaceful marriage about the MB principles. Do you think that we are going through this so that we can warn others? Maybe that's the higher plan!! <BR>

Dear Sidney,<P>Yes. I too feel like I am more in a position to preach the good word of Dr. Harley. My neice who is 8 years my junior is having trouble in her marriage. I bought her the book Her Needs/His Needs. Sure hope that it works. She has only been married a little over a year. <P>I have advised my sister, who is starting a family counseling job, to read all of Dr. Harley's site. <P>Maybe it is like being a born again Christian. We have seen the light and know the mistakes that got us to that tough spot so we feel the need to warn others. I hope I don't start preaching. <P>STUDENT,<P>I like the glass of water analogy. It makes it all so much easier to understand H's behavior.

Nope,it can happen to anyone. I am the quiet, good little angel of my family. Or maybe so many people tell me I'm too nice & I just started to believe it. On the other hand, I told H on numerous occasions that I needed more, but was obvioulsy too nice to get my point across. In fact, he encouraged friendship with OM, thought I just needed to get out more with friends. (or maybe just glad that I had someone else to spend time with so I would quit bugging him ??) We used to laugh & joke, "got a date with your boyfriend this weekend?" I never saw it coming. But there I was, letting OM take H's place as my best friend, letting him meet my emotional needs.<BR>Never thought I would be one of those statistics. It sneaks up on you....not an excuse just a reality check.

HI wafflestoo,<BR> Let me put my two cents in here. I feel that the "betrayer's" personality profile would be SELFISH, SELFISH, SELFISH!!!!!<P> Whether it be their "Normal" behavior OR the "Crazy" behavior. The profile is SELFISH.<BR> This being said. Think about it. On this board you hear stories of betrayers:<P><BR>Leaving young children (whom they love)<BR>Leaving LONG marriages.<BR>Having no contact with family and friends.<BR>Blowing all their money on OP while their families barely eat. Etc...<P> Dr Harley's methods talk about "needs" <BR> The needs of the betrayer are SELFISH<P>ME ME ME ME ME<P> That's all they talk about. "You didn't do this" "You didn't do that" "I want this" "I want that"<P> All at the expense of the very people that need, KNOW and love them the most.<P> If I had to say watch out for ONE single trait to warn me that my SP was "capable" of cheating, I would look for the "signs" of selfishness either in their "Personality" or in their "actions" <BR> Now, I can pinpoint the time that my W started being selfish... The day she was born. FRANK<BR>

PLEASE HELP,<BR>You are selfish too. Everyone is. When you got married, I'll bet you didn't sit there and think ONLY about all the things you were going to do for your spouse. I'll bet you were thinking about all the nice things your spouse was doing for YOU, YOU, YOU too. If you weren't selfish too, then infidelity wouldn't be a problem at all. Cause you wouldn't have needs like fidelity and honesty. You'd care only about what your spouse wanted, whatever that would be. If you think about it long enough, you have selfish reasons for being faithful too. If somehow, someday you didn't think those reasons were good enough, you might cheat too. Until they invent some magical machine where we can read other people's minds, we'll all just have to do it the hard way! Communication!