You know, something Medic wrote to me has got me to thinking. He said that it could be the reason H didn't just leave after packing his stuff was that perhaps my H was hoping I would beg him to stay. At first, I thought, "Hogwash!". But the more I think about this, the more I wonder whether H was hoping that very thing. I did tell him that I didn't want him to go, along with the thousands of reasons that I thought it was a huge mistake. But, I did not beg, cry or fall apart. He has seen me fall apart many times in the past since this started and he told me it makes him feel guilty, so I purposely tried to hold it together.<P>The one thing I have not done so far, is put the screws to OW. I have not tried to contact her or blow the whistle on her. I always felt that it would only make matters worse. I'm now wondering if deep inside his mixed up mind, H is disappointed that I never "appeared to fight for him". He has divulged information to me that I could definitely use to my advantage and make her life a bit uncomfortable, if not downright miserable, like the fact that she is still legally married (so custody for kids has not been determined), and she is in the officer ranks in the military (big no no!). I've done my homework and I've got names and numbers and I could definitely turn the heat up on her. I've never been a vindictive type, but I'm really wondering if this would do any good. They do say all is fair in love and war. <P>In my situation, my H doesn't feel like I need him. I'm a calm, grounded type of person by nature, so I'm not prone to having emotional outburts. Maybe he interprets this as I don't care. <P>Has anyone else out there had any success with putting the screws to the OP. And betrayers, I definitely would like your feedback. Did you ever wish your spouse would go to battle with the OP?

Sidney, I don't know if that's the truth or not but I do remember doing a very crazy love busting fight where he decided that he was going to work on it. I told him he owed me until I completed my schooling (since I saw him through his juris doctorate) and that I was worth that time and effort and if he didn't I would make him miserable, using kids, family, house, career, whatever means. I was a real jerk, but I won. He has put the honest effort needed into it and to this day he thanks me for that hugh love bust. would I do it again? I don't know, the guilt is killing me from this junk and my behavior which is so unlike my norm.<BR>God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>

CP,<P>Thanks for your response. I know, it must feel horrible to have to stoop so low as to have to resort to threats. I have purposely worked hard to rise above all this ugliness, and not stoop to her level. But sometimes, it just gets to me, that she had the nerve to send EMails into my home, mail her lovey dovey stupid cards to my home, not to mention what she did in my bed! The violations are almost too much to bear. I know it's not my place to exact revenge, but sometimes I think you have to fight fire with fire. It's all they understand.

No, no, no. Don't put the screws to the OW. Even though mine was pretty light. (phone calls) I ended up in jail and lost my girls for 6 weeks. Although what the oOW said was a lie, she was still believed in court and now I am on a years probation. I tried to fight for my H and he turned it around. I think that if he is giving you the impression that is what he wants, maybe you should go for it, but in a different way than contacting or getting the OW in trouble. My H stuck up for her and in the long run the pain that caused was even deeper. Trust your instincts.

Thanks, Mental, for the reality check. I guess, I'm just down today, and starting to doubt myself for not doing more. My instinct has always been to not stoop to her level, so you're right in that I should trust it. But, when you're whole world comes crashing down, you doubt your entire belief system, not to mention your instincts. That's why I really need you guys. I value your input, so much.

Sidney,<P>If OW is in the military you can put the screws on here, but I believe that unless H is in the military and of unequal rank she will not get thrown out. You now the competence factor you mentioned is important.Men and to some extent women do need to feel that they are needed. If you H is in that category putting up some sort of a fight for him because you need him just might open some eyes. <P>It is hard to know but personally, it is something to consider. You know LB are LB's but they can have different tones. One is vindicitive and another is because of love. If you understand what I mean. Hard decision, but if all else fails what have you got to lose?<P>Good Luck<P>God Bless You

sidney,<P>YES - I definitely think the betrayer wants that fight! But, comes a time when you can't keep doing it. It boosts the rego for sure. But after awhile, the betrayer needs to do whatever they are going to do without all the "fighting" and tug of war for his/her attentions. I have givn up the "fighting", but not the fight, if you know what I mean. The ball is in H and OW's court - she HAS to meets all his needs now and if she can - they will move on together. If not, I am hoping my H will turn around and give me a second look.....<P>Roll me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

JL,<BR>In this case, she is the ranking person, so I know I have a pretty good case. But, I've done the groundwork already, and the rules changed this year, so that he could be reprimanded as well, and it could impact his retirement. So, I've decided against that. It's just so hard to know what to do. I'm really not out to destroy anybody, I'd just like to see HER squirm awhile, and show him that I really do need him. But, the way my luck goes, it would probably backfire. I've always been one to take the high ground, so I guess I'll stick with that. At least that way you can't get washed out to sea when the tide comes in!!<P>RMA,<BR>Thanks, you're absolutely right. There was a tug of war for five months, and I think in a way H basked in all the attention. Even though, he tried to tell me this was hurting him too. I Plan A'd my little heart out, and if H didn't see that I love and need him, then there's no hope. I feel like I fought a good, and decent battle. Never stooped to threats or manipulation. He even told me at one point how impressed he was that I was handling it like I was. In fact, I was handling it so well, that I think H's conscience finally got the best of him, and he couldn't bring himself to keep on hurting me. His moving out was an act of kindness towards me, as convuluded as that sounds. Just like a drug addict, he could not stop himself from hurting me. So, he did the honorable thing.<P>Thanks you guys. Don't know what I'd do without you. Time to light our candle now.

Sidney,<P>The scene you described would have fit the old me to a "T". I used to drop the mail off for Val when I knew she would be there. I wanted to test the waters. Yes, I am the betrayed in this round. But, we have always been testing each other. Saying certain things to elicite a response. <P>I hope your sadness is not because of me. When I read your post, I could just see "us" in that situation. I immediately thought of the kindergarten testing that we played.[used to play].<P><P>------------------<BR>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P><BR>

Oh, definitely No, Medic. My sadness is not due to you. I value everyone's input here because we all see things from a different perspective. Sometimes, I'm looking for more of a male perspective because they just see things differently. From a different angle. You're right about testing the waters. In such a highly volatile situation as this, you're never quite sure where you stand, so testing the waters is just natural. But, I don't think he was testing the waters Wednesday night. He had already made up his mind. Yet, he couldn't just walk without baring his soul to me, & making sure that I would not self-destruct. I think, too, that he wanted to be certain he didn't burn the bridge.

Sidney,<BR>My H of late has said some very revealing things to me now that he is trying to come back to the relationship. Things that brought him around were that OW started to pressure him, and I never did. I gave him space and she smothered. I was a shoulder to lean on, she was selfish and had her own agenda. But he also said when he left me, he was convinced that we were too damaged and communicating too badly to ever heal. But then when he saw I could still treat him well, be civil over money and kids, and even express the hope we could reconcile under the right circumstances - he realized he hadn't killed off the relationship after all. And he started slowly (about 8 wks ago, after 2 mos of separation)to test coming back. He did say that if I had pushed the divorce right away or acted vindictively he would not have had the courage to approach me and would be trying to make it work with OW.<P>I never considered putting the screws to OW. It just felt beneath my dignity and if that is what it took, I was ready to let H go. I could not drag my kids through more muck - and certainly not of my own making.<P>Sidney, I guess I am saying the no lovebusting approach I took was critical to giving H the confidence that we actually could rebuild. i would think hard before trying the "mess with OW" approach if you still want your marriage. And if you do not, she is not worth your time.<P>Good luck,<BR>Starpony

I thought of two examples when I read your post. First, a close friend of mine was left by her H (never admitted to OW, friend in denial). He moved out for 6 months then returned. During reconciliation counseling, he told her he left because she didn't "fight" for him. Much like you, she is calm natured and figured, if he wants to go....<P>In my own marriage, OW "threatened" pregnancy after H ended it. During the period that pregnancy was in question, he would not see her and refused to talk to her. She got pissed because he wouldn't talk to her and started some ugly antics on his job. He finally talked to her and told her "this isn't CUTE anymore" CUTE! What was cute about this? I think my H liked the "fight" and the attention/focus it brought to him.<P>I don't know if its being a betrayer as much as the "wanting to feel needed/wanted" that makes one desire a struggle/fight over them. I also believe that in some cases, the betrayer is so confused and in so deep that they just don't know how to get out. So they take the path of least resistance, by default. Or better yet, let someone else (spouse or OP) lead them...by fighting the better fight for them, or by drawing a line.<P>My advice, don't do anything that you would not be proud of later.<P>God Bless Sidney<P>Enlightened

Sidney,<BR>I am sorry you are having such a bad day. I know it is so hard to know what is the right thing to do. I go back and forth constantly as to what I should do. I wonder if by showing that I can make it on my own is the wrong thing to do, but you know if I can't make it on my own then what would happen if he didn't come back. How do you fight something like this. Maybe the things is not to fight but to give time a chance. I don't know wish I did. THen we all would be where we wanted to be with our spouses. BUt my counselor told me to trust my instincts sometimes I am not sure what they are. BUt, there are things that just feel right, things that I start to do different but I always come back to my first ideas. BUt I think the best thing to do is to do what you feel is right and you are comfortable with. Because no matter the outcome we have to live with ourselves. Hope you are feeling better. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

My W (the betrayer) during the early stages of our separation was feeling the water when she asked me:<P>1/. Could we get back together with the OM in the loop - Answer NO<BR>2/. Would,I like to meet the OM (he is soooo nice a person (yuk) - Answer NO<BR>And when I asked why would I want to meet him:-<BR>3/. Would you like to punch him in the nose - Answer NO.<P>There is nothing I would have liked more than to punch this guy, but wait a minute, if my W is going to relent to advances from the opposite sex, who is really to blame. <P>Any red blooded unattached male will take what ever opportunities are shown to him. Particularly from someone as attractive as my W. He must have thought that all his christmases had come at once. Perhaps I should have punched my wife in the nose (only joking but I think you get the drift).<P>My W initiated things as far as I'm concerned in this. I have had no contact whatsoever with the OM and frankly don't intend to. I feel totally responsible as a result<P>Regards<BR>Fairenough<P>

*Pony- thank you so much for sharing your insight. I can absolutely see the same pattern in my situation. OW is very needy, & I'm sure will be smothering, & no doubt pressuring him. He told me that he has told her that he still loves me and it scares the [censored] out of her. I wonder, though, if that isn't his way of manipulating her? You know throwing her off balance so she will put forth her absolute best? But, I do feel it's true that he does still love me. And you're right, he needs his space now, and the best thing I can do is respect that & not interfere. I am afraid that he will not have the courage to admit his mistake & come back to me once it all starts to unravel. So, with your help, I can now see the importance of not lovebusting. You're thoughts are priceless. Thanks again.<P>Enlightened, you're right about my H needing to feel needed. I think that's the principal attraction with OW. And, I think he is in over his head. But, as he expressed to me, he needs to stand on his own two feet. So, now that I think about it more, my coming to the rescue so to speak, would do nothing for his self esteem. He needs to resolve this himself. Thanks for sharing your examples with me. Means a lot.<P>Diana, thanks for sharing. You're right about trusting the instincts. It's just that this causes so much self doubt that you start to doubt them too! With everyone's help, I can see that the best thing I can do right now is just stay the course.<P>Thanks all of you guys. Like I said before you are all great! <P>The next thing I have to start thinking about is what will I say when H contacts me?

<BR> I am the different one here, I made it plain<BR> to my husband that I would not fight for him. I made him fight to win me back. The more he thought I could make it without him ,the more he wanted to come back. The affair was over at this time though so my situation is a little different.<BR> take care<BR> C.P.

We aren't suppose to have self doubt. We are the strong one at least that is what our spouses think. But really have selfdoubts all the time but I usually come back to the first thing that I decided to do at the begining. As for as planning what to say the next time H calls. Don't or at least try not to: 1. You won't remember it if he calls, 2. You will be disappointed if he doesn't call so you can tell him this great words. 3. That is spending time you need to spend on yourself. I know trying not to think of it is easier said then done. My worst time is driving, of course I have almost pasted my exisit a few times, and almost ran into the car in front of me. So I work on other things. THe more you can work on stopping the "thinking of him" the better you are Not it is difficult but as time goes on I do find there a longer periods of times that my thought stay awasy from him. Of course I have a few months on you. But trust me it does get better, and life does go on. I'll try to email you later.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

CutieP- I agree with you in that I have often felt like H should have to win me back after all he has put me through. We all deserve better than this. I hope your H is proving himself to you now.<P>Diana- thanks so much for the encouraging words. It's so hard to stop the obsessive thoughts. How does one do that? To make it even worse, I forgot to take my medication this morning, so I'm having to struggle through the day. I'm looking forward to your EMail. I have something for you that my sister sent me. You'll find it very interesting. Take care. <P>