Why do people go out and have a affair? Why don't they get out of a bad marriage instead of making more promblems for them and everyone eles around them.You have a bad marriage, fine get out,if it's worth it then work on the marriage without bringing affairs into it.God knows I don't have the best marriage but it don't want me to go out and cheat.What am I benifting from that but alot more promblems!!!!!

I think that most people in a marriage who have affairs, don't actually plan to have them... I don't think we actually went out looking for one...<P>Most of us thought it would never happen to us... We fell into circumstances that for one reason another brought us closer emotionally to another... maybe they listened to us... or understood us.... <P>It is a very fine line... and once crossed... it becomes an emotional battle... which causes us to become temporarily blinded by the attention and understanding we are getting from the OP...and weren't getting in the marriage... <P>And Yep... I'm sure we all agree that it causes tons of problems... that's for sure... for everyone involved. Not a pleasant situation to be in... <P>That's why were here...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunny37:<BR><B>Why do people go out and have a affair? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because they don't have the problem solving skills, communication skills, maturity, devotion, foresight, and consideration to try and solve their problems in a healthy way. Let's not sugar coat this. There are no excuses and not everyone just "falls into" this. Anyone can be tempted, but adulterers CHOOSE to be adulterers.<P>I was in the same marriage as my H. Did I go out and sleep with other people or lie? No, I began obsessing about exercise- something healthier!<P>I know what it is like to argue in circles, feel misunderstood, and feel like things are not progressing, but I had four choices. Keep things as they are, try to change them for the better, get needs met in some other way, or leave. Obviously there are a lot of people who are weak and rely on others for their self esteem. Too bad.

<BR>popeye,<P>I love your bluntness. I really do! <P>Bystander<P>

I don't think anyone wakes up and says, Geez I am bored I think I'll have an affair. If we lived in a perfect world then you would work on your marriage before stumbling into anything else. I can only speak for myself, but I am the betrayer in my marriage and it certainly wasn't planned. I stumbled. I was very unhappy, had thought about leaving my spouse, but with out the financial resources, two kids, and 15 years under my belt, I figured everyone went through bad times...things would get better. I met someone online, started writing to him and before I realized what was going on, was talking to him daily. It was easy to tell myself that nothing was going on, because physically there wasn't. A few months later, I realized I had just gambled my heart away. Was it intentional? Absolutely not...Did it cause more problems for me, my marriage, the OP? YES. Was it worth the pain I am living in right now? Yes and No. I am probably going through the most painful episode of my life right now. I also have learned that my marriage was over before the affair started and the past months have been a desparate struggle to find some common ground to begin again. There hasn't been any. I have seen a side to my spouse that I had suspected but didn't want to believe and I have endured much humilation and pain. Somewhere through all of this I now have the strength to leave a bad marriage and it's not to go with the OM either. The affair ended abruptly and painfully...so there has been the withdrawl factor. Had I known then what I know now, I don't think I would ever have gotten married.<BR>

Popeye....<P>Please don't take this personally... <P>Wow, I feel like I should be bowing humbly at your feet and chanting...<BR>"I'm not worthy....I'm not worthy...."<BR>NOT!<P>Not everyone who has an affair, as you assume, is a mentally challenged idiot.... You're holier than thou attitude is sickening... a total slam directed to the intelligence of all betrayers.... to say the least...<P>God forgive us betrayers for not being... all seeing visionaries.... all perfect.... all knowledgeable and all "Healthy" as popeye.... <P>Also, I wasn't making excuses... I was explaining how MY affair began... Your "Bluntness" so to speak was meant to be nothing but intentional rudeness towards all betrayers... And it is very offensive to those of us who know that we did something wrong and are trying to what is right...<P>I wonder how you can stand living in a world surrounded by "incompetant" people? Or do you just stay in your room, running on your treadmill, in your own private perfect little world?<P>I'm guessing that you are here because you were betrayed and not able to forgive....<P>This message has been brought to you by the "Committee for the Rightously and Intelligently Challenged"<P>(Bowing and humbly leaving the room....)<P>Sorry.. bad day.... Forgive me everyone...

Lacee,<BR>I think you should sit down and take a few breaths.<BR>Popeye did not say that people that have affairs a "mentally challenged idiots" those are your words and if that is what popeye ment that is what she would have said. Popeye said what she ment - "don't have the problem solving skills, communication skills, maturity, devotion, foresight, and consideration to try and solve their problems in a healthy way" Now if you had said that hey everyone had one or more of these faults so I am just one of the faultier ones then maybe I could agree with you but you took off into space.<P>First of all everyone is "holier then thou". It is human nature to be that way so labeling someones specific behavior as "holier then thou" behavior is redundant. And second popeye is stating what she percieves as facts about betrayers. And I am sure in her life she can point to specific instances to back up each one of the faults that she listed.<P>Popeye did not claim to be " all seeing visionaries.... all perfect.... all knowledgeable and all "Healthy"" She merely stated that when she was faced with the decision that many betrayers have been faced with either subtly (sp) through an EA or directly through a PA, she layed out her choices and chose in accordance with the strength of her character.<P>Popeye did not state that the world was incompetent and it is silly of you to make such a statement.<P>And as far as forgiveness is concerned - you have no insight into the mind or heart of popeye. She may be in the process of forgiving but we do not know. She may just be a blunt woman who calls em like she sees em.<P>All in all personal attacks usually aren't warrented and usually are followed by an apology.

I agree that most people in an affair did not intend to go there. But I do think that some people who are in affairs are the type of people who subconsciously put themselves in a place to have an affair. What I mean is that they are the mones who flirt and seek out other flirters. When a suggestion is made they raise the stakes instead of backing off. I will never forget once meeting a collegue after work who had been pestering me to have drinks with him.. I was newly married and my H was always going off to Happy Hours with his buds and always telling me I should do the same (generally not my type of scene). So, I figured.. what the hell, I'll go and see what happens...The other guy was very flirtatious...to the point where I strated to get uncomfortable.. so I started to say things to him about my H.. I think every other word out of my mouth was about my H. I was sending him a back off message.. not interested. My H on the other hand (who has been in a number of affairs), would probably have followed along with the banter out of curiousity.. He also did not deliberately seek out an affair.. it just happened... (his words). I agree though that at some point a conscious choice is made...it is not easy.. but some people seem to be able to say NO and others don't seem to be able to do so. I am not making a judgment here...In the case of my H, I beleive he is running away. His parents marriage ended in D because of an affair... both his brother and sister ended their first marriages in affairs and married their other people....now my H (who is the baby) is following their pattern. Patterns are hard to break. I was always the strong on in the marriage in terms of fighting for the marriage. His parental example taught him that it was ok to give up... as long as you had tried hard for a while. So that is what he is doing as well. It is sad however because I am convinced that he will move on in his new relationship and just discover that the grass is not greener it is just different. he will initially seem to be happier ,but eventually the passion will fade and he will realize.. hey this isn't all that different than what I had with wife No.1...and by leaving her I have left scars on our kids... what have I done? It is a shame that he can not learn this lesson without falling off the horse so to speak!

Well... I humbly apologize for going off the deep end and if I offended you, popeye....<BR>Thank you for opening my eyes Newbie..<P>Calling it as I saw it.... Her opinion stated that "They" (meaning all betrayers)... She did not say "Some" betrayers..... Nothing was generalized... it was directed at all waywards... She did however, say that "not everyone just "falls into" this." Sarcastic or not? <P>I am sure that there are some people who do go out and intentionally have an affair...<P>She went on to say, with out sugar coating, that we are not capable of solving problems, cannot communicate, are immature, cannot be devoted, live only in the moment and are inconsiderate... <P>There were no, "or's" in between any of those characteristics... and that... I guess is what offended me...<P>Oh yes, I admit to being guilty of at least one of those... but... I am telling you that the betrayed spouse can be just as guilty of those things... which is where some of the problems stem from... (I'm not trying to be rude but this is something you might want to take a step back and look at Newbie...)<P>Yes... we chose to be betrayers because we were "weak"... Situations arise.. a friendship became closer... feelings begin to happen... and Yes... being a "Weak" woman, my self-esteem was destroyed by my H.... and Yes... when the OP listened, understood and showed compassion towards me.. it boosted my self-esteem... <P>It is sad, like she said, isn't it? When you just can't seem to live up to the outrageous expectations that a spouse puts on you no matter how hard you try? And you have to rely on someone else? <P>I'm sorry.. but if she was trying not to be rude in her post I missed it.. it sounded full of sarcasm and degrading to betrayers....and that is my opinion.... and I an entitled to it....<P>Referring to my comments about the "world being incompetent", you missed the whole point... <P>Honestly though.... And I mean this sincerely... It really is a shame that we betrayers weren't able to choose a healthier way to deal with it... Too bad for everyone involved... I'm sure that we would all liked to have had that type of character... <P>Anyway, again, my apologies to ALL who were offended or are going to be offended... I NEEDED TO VENT!!!!!! Sheesh... I told you I was having a bad day... Would you rather I kicked the cat instead?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited May 16, 2000).]

I cannot speak for all betrayers out there...some even would consider me betrayer-lite because it wasn't a PA, but I can tell you I did try to work on my marriage for many years. I tried to channel my energies into exercise, work, and was on every committee known to man. I volunteered for everything...my H sat home and slept. I tried talking to him, writing to him, seducing him, and then shouting at him. You know what...he told me to go call a girlfriend, or go find someone to chat with. How much of this are you suppose to endure? I held out for 15 years...never once going out and flirting with anyone. I use to think why did I get married? I did everything alone and not by choice. I met my downfall online...who did nothing more than be kind to me. Pathatic isn't it? Did I choose to be an adulterer...I am not that I don't care what anyone says. Was I in a healthy state of mind at the time...yes, but I was operating on a lovebank seriously in the red. An axe murdered could have shown me kindness and I would have been an easy target. Granted the betrayer enters into the relationship whether it's an EA, PA, or both, but not always cold bloodidly and selfishly. I am not selfish or a woman who preys on other women's husband. I made a mistake and have truly paid for it in ways that will haunt me for the rest of my days.<BR>

Actually Lacee... my husband (thenewbie) probably WOULD prefer that you kick the cat. :P He hates ours.<P>------------------<BR>"I believe... this is heaven to no one else but me - and I'll defend it long as I can be left here to linger in silence if I choose to would you try to understand?" - Sarah McLachlan

What stings me is that for the vast majority of people, being a betrayer is not a one-time decision. No one says - "from now on I will be unfathful to my spouse. I am now a betrayer".<P>Worse than that, it is a decision made a thousand times over...<BR><I><BR>"I think I'll send OP an email"<BR>"I think I'll call OP on the phone"<BR>"I wonder if OP sent me an email"<BR>"I enjoy daydreaming about OP"<BR>"I want to tell OP about my unhappy marriage"<BR>"I better hide my relationship from my spouse."<BR>"I think I'm developing feelings for OP"<BR>"I'm going to tell OP my feelings"<BR>"I'm going to have sex with OP"<BR>"I guess I'll lie to my spouse if suspicious questions are asked."<BR>"I'll cover my butt by getting angry at my spouse if I get caught"</I><P>And each small decision is a betrayal by itself. When hundreds or thousands of these pile up - no wonder it is the "mother of all battles" to restore the marriage.<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23<p>[This message has been edited by 2sad4words (edited May 16, 2000).]

Well this has been an interesting thread. Thanks Thenewbie for pointing it out to me. I just want to say that I have been in both places (as ashamed as I am to admit it). I was a betrayer who carelessly and hurtfully stomped all over my ex-h heart as well as my children's self-esteem and feelings. Of course I justified it by telling myself how I tried for years to make the marriage better while he did NOTHING. <P>All in all I married the man who I had the affair with and if you'll read my posts, you will see that now I am the one in that position!!! <P>This is my point Lacee, there is NO excuse for a cheater to turn to someone, outside the marriage, of the opposite sex just because they listen or they understand you and they're there for you!! You are asking for an affair if you do that!! I know I am going to catch hell for saying what I'm saying, but I get angry when people "justify" their actions and make excuses by saying they weren't "looking" or "we got closer and it just happened!" I turned to my now h because he was my escape. I fell maddenly in love with him and saw nothing else but him. I gave up my marriage and almost lost my children. Was he worth it? All I can say is I still love him so very, very much!! Did I do the right thing? I don't know since my h apparently lacks the maturity and ability to communicate our marital problems so that he wouldn't be seeking outside "frienships" with other woman.<P>What's the point,Windy? Well,the point is I don't think anyone can say they truly didn't see it coming! It just feels too good to stop! If people would only make up their minds to leave a marriage (or stay) BEFORE getting involved with someone else, so many people wouldn't get hurt. I just truly believe betrayers think they can have their cake and eat it too.

The things I said were not my excuses... they were my reasons... Could there be an underlying reason that I haven't figured out yet? Possibly...<P>Your reason for betrayal just so happened to be the fact that you were looking for an escape... it was not mine...<P>There is no excuse for betrayal... But I did not go out looking for an affair... believe what you want... <P>The reason people get so tired of hearing the same old reasons or "excuses" as you call them.... is because they really are the reasons that betrayers have... They are there... they keep coming up... I didn't just go to a website for betrayers and look at a list of "excuses for having an affair..." and then pick one...<P>It's just like if you were a supervisor at a big company and you had to take those "Calling in sick" phone calls from employees day after day after day.. After a while... you don't believe anyone anymore because you have heard it too much... Well.. that doesn't mean that the employee isn't really sick.. does it?<P>Those are the reasons... That is what happened... I can guarantee you that you will hear those reasons over and over again... That doesn't mean it isn't true... <P>In my case was it worth it? Should I have turned to another for support? Should I have let those feelings get to the point they did? No way... absolutely not! The reasons I had then for venting to another... should have been worked on within my marriage in an entirely different way... I should have considered counceling... etc... <P>And now, I, like some of the others who have mentioned it, will live with it the rest of my life...<p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited May 16, 2000).]

I sure seeing the betrayer's point of view is difficult until you've been there...the same could be said for the betrayed. But how can you compare the guilt a betrayer feels for his or her conduct with the overwhelm sense of loss and sorrow of the betrayed. There is no comparison...and if you have an affair then you do so with the knowledge that you may be causing that kind of hurt to someone you should at least respect even if you don't love them anymore. <P>To compound the problem, you "find the one person who lights your fire" and you do anything to keep that...so you say and do even more hurt to justify your continuing to have the affair...how selfish.<BR> <BR>A lot of the people posting on this board are surprised by the affair. This doesn't reflect much effort on the part of the betrayers to convey their unhappiness to their spouces. I personally feel like I would have done everything I could have to resolve my h and my difficulties, but I was never allowed to hear about them. So someone picked up on the fact that he was unhappy and, because of her need and his selfishness, an affair was begun. <P>Lastly, I would ask the betrayer "Did you really try to resolve your problems...or are you just trying to justify your actions?" <BR>If you don't love your spouse anymore and you think that there is no hope for your marriage, tell them what the problem is, give them a chance to change, try a little introspection and see if there might not be a little blame on your part, then if all else fails, divorce. <P>People change and grow apart, have different interests and desires...maybe the marriage was wrong to begin with...but this was a person you once loved and you need to treat them with kindness and respect no matter how you feel about them now. <BR> <BR>I can forgive the affair... but the disrespect and dishonesty will stay with me forever.<P>buffy<P>

Quoted from post by Lacee<BR>"Calling it as I saw it.... Her opinion stated that "They" (meaning all betrayers)... She did not say "Some" betrayers..... Nothing was generalized... it was directed at all waywards... She did however, say that "not everyone just "falls into" this." Sarcastic or not? "<P>So it was directed at all waywards? You could probl. poll the betrayed and come to the same conclusion. I would guess that we all feel this way about the betrayer. What does this matter - you have said yourself (and what we should all remember) that what she said is her opinion. Your opinion may be different and I haven't seen anyone post any statistical proof either way - that is why they are called opinions. And I am not so sure she was being sarcastic about the "falling into" part. It appears to me that she feels that 'falling into' is a cop out - you chose to do what you did and you should own up to it. If you decided to email the guy the say I decided to email the guy. If you wrote to the guy and said I love you then fess up to loving him. But don't paint it like you were mosying along minding your own business and then a wind came along and blew you naked on top of your lover.<P>Now as far as the traits go - like I said before I am not discounting the fact that the spouse (especially myself )does not have some or all of those traits but I would guess if you polled betrayeds you would find that they feel all of the traits are applicable to the betrayer.<P>"being a "Weak" woman, my self-esteem was destroyed by my H.... and Yes... when the OP listened, understood and showed compassion towards me.. it boosted my self-esteem... "<P>I will agree with you here. This is how it seems it happens in alot of cases.<P>"It is sad, like she said, isn't it? When you just can't seem to live up to the outrageous expectations that a spouse puts on you no matter how hard you try? And you have to rely on someone else? "<P>Communication problem.<P>"I'm sorry.. but if she was trying not to be rude in her post I missed it.. it sounded full of sarcasm and degrading to betrayers....and that is my opinion.... and I an entitled to it...."<P>The tone of her post could be considered rude by some and blunt by others. And you are right she certainly didn't try to not be rude. Degrading to betrayers is another topic and I my opinions are not fair so I won't voice them. But I will agree - it is your opinion and you are entitled to speak it.<P>"I NEEDED TO VENT!!!!!! Sheesh... I told you I was having a bad day... Would you rather I kicked the cat instead?"<P>Hey, feel free to vent. This is a forum for discussion. Blow if you need to and cokme back later and talk about why you did - just like you are doing. And my wife (unfort) is right I would rather you kick our cats <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacee:<BR><B>Popeye....<P>Not everyone who has an affair, as you assume, is a mentally challenged idiot.... You're holier than thou attitude is sickening... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe it's your guilt that is getting to you? I call it like I see it. We're all human and I have been there too.<P>One day I just told my H out of the blue, "I feel like having an affair." He was shocked. My needs weren't being met either. I didn't have anyone in mind, but I knew that things weren't great between us and wanted them to be better. Was I looking for an affair? No, I was looking for the same attention you all were. As you said, I don't think others looking for an affair either, but the CHOICE to go there belongs to the individual. The feelings that lead there happen to us all. What we do about them is an individual decision. <P>Take responsibility! Question your motivation behind what you do and do something healthy instead of making life wrecking choices.<P>Can we forgive? Sure. And I think we should. Forgiveness is not for the betrayer, but for the well-being of the betrayed.<P>I stand by my comments. If you are truly sorry for what you've done, perhaps you will gain some of the maturity and problem solving skills, etc so that you won't do this again. I don't say this as a slam. i think mistakes are an effective way of learning.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buffy:<P><B>A lot of the people posting on this board are surprised by the affair. This doesn't reflect much effort on the part of the betrayers to convey their unhappiness to their spouses. I personally feel like I would have done everything I could have to resolve my h and my difficulties, but I was never allowed to hear about them. So someone picked up on the fact that he was unhappy and, because of her need and his selfishness, an affair was begun. <P>Lastly, I would ask the betrayer "Did you really try to resolve your problems...or are you just trying to justify your actions?" <BR>...I can forgive the affair... but the disrespect and dishonesty will stay with me forever. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow. Those could be my words. It says exactly how I feel. The pain of his lies is certainly worse than not trusting me enough with his feelings. <P>I suppose it is different for everybody, but in my experience, it is about weakness and selfishness. When I was vulnerable to that sort of thing, young, good-looking guy came flirting around. It aroused me and made me feel like I hadn't in a long time, but it also sickened me. I was literally nauseated and ran in the other direction. <P>So, do I think that it is just something that happens? No, we choose it. It wasn't out of devotion to my H that I didn't stray. It was out of respect for my self -image. I wanted to be someone I could respect.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thenewbie:<BR><B>The tone of her (Popeye's) post could be considered rude by some and blunt by others. And you are right she certainly didn't try to not be rude. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Alright. Alright. We are a forum of people of different cultural, religious, ethnic, economic, educational, etc backgrounds. With that in mind, what we say make be construed one way by some and another way by others. Can we agree on that?<P>I certainly have been accused of being blunt before, but my intention is never to be rude or degrading. If I insulted anyone, I apologize.<P>I just feel that we should all own up to our problems and frailties. There is nothing wrong with being human. We are all human. The problem is when we can't learn from our mistakes or that our egos are so afraid to be challenged that we hide in the fetal position, afraid to challenge old habits and break new ground.<P>The betrayeds have a part in their dramas too. In some cases their behaviour may be more reprehensible than the betrayers, but the issue I was addressing wasn't who was right and who was wrong or if the betrayeds are righteous simply because they were betrayed. The issue was about characteristics of betrayers.

The question was....<P>"Why do people have affairs.." I replied why I had an affair... <P>I was unaware that I was entering into a Lions den where all the lions had been betrayed and weren't going to have any type of open mindedness about what a betrayer has to deal with...<P>I was also under the impression that forgiveness comes to all who repent of their sins... If that is not so.... then Jesus sure got a bum deal....<P>So now... I ask myself.. What the He!! am I doing here? Obviously, it there isn't any use trying to explain something to someone who can't hear... Or for that matter holding up a card to a blind peron and asking them to tell you what color it is.... <P>For your information, your remarks had nothing to do with my feeling guilty. I have felt that way since the first time I was with OM... (yes, I know it's a shocker, but betrayers do still feel...)<P>Yes... I am a betrayer... a hideous scar on the face of this earth... Yes.. I became addicted to feeling better about myself... And yes I take responsibility for what happened.... I said it before... maybe you missed it... <P>So here it is again...I should have handled things differently... But I have done something horribly wrong and want to make things better... that is why I came to MB. But, I don't think that I belong here... <P>So.. I think it is best to just drop it... I'd tell you to go pick on somebody your own size but I don't think that anyone here can measure up....