My goodness...so much anger and going back and forth. I think it is obvious why the people here had affairs...they obviously were incredibly unhappy and fell to the temptation of being loved. To the betrayed, this sounds like a cop-out because they are reeling from the hurt. To the betrayed that are here, they understand the hurt and betrayal they feel from being virtually ignored. Please take note, the betrayers who don't give a damn are not here...but the ones who see the error of their ways are...and there lies the problem. I think we would all agree that as human beings we all need some thing. Getting married, we all thought our spouses would provide us with love and support. We all handle things differently. I'm not making excusues for infedelity...but there are various degrees of it. I think that if you are married or thinking about getting married, you should seriously consider the other person. It seems that so many people, male and female think that once they are married they are free to be selfish, sloppy, or do what ever because they are married. NOT!!!!! Be considerate, take care of yourself, be attentive and supportive. Be your spouses best friend and lover. Once you take advantage....and so many of us do...you are inviting someone else in. Is it wrong...is it just...is it moral? NO, but wake up baby, tis the way of the world and here we all are...either the betrayed, or the betrayer, seeking something that was so missing in the marriage.<BR>

I've been visiting these forums for several weeks now. I've been married 13 years and never had an affair -- unless recent intense fantasies about a casual acquaintance whom I rarely see counts. These inappropriate thoughts got me searching for marriage advice online, and here I am. <P>I had plans of actually pursuing these fantasies. Why? My marriage lacks love, affection, and intimacy. These essential ingredients have been missing for a long time. I'm not sure my marriage can be fixed. I'm looking for a way out. Thank goodness I found this forum and all the good people here have convinced me that an affair is not the way out.

Lacee! Snap out of it! It is not a personal attack and no one is picking on you. In fact you are the one that is being combative. Somehow you have misconstrued what Popeye was saying and given her a bum rap.<P>Like you said, everyone's entitled to their opinion-surely you mean Popeye, too!<P>Catnip =^^=

<BR>As Lonelysoul said:<P>"Please take note, the betrayers who don't give a damn are not here...but the ones who see the error of their ways are...and there lies the problem."<P>Is this not what is important here? Not name calling or righteous indignation, but understanding. Lacee is here because she needs help in understanding and being understood. Imagine what courage it takes to come on this decidely bias platform and admit you have had or are having an affair, be it an EA or a PA. <P>There are lessons to be learned here from anyone who wants to contribute...no labels need to be applied...and no judgments need to be made. We can try to objectively explore the causes and results of affairs uncolored by our prejudices. If we all were perfect there would be no need for this forum because we would automatically always do the right thing.<P>"Forgive us our sins and forgive those who have sinned against us"..and fallen short of the glory of "me"....Amen<P>I personally am learning a lot from reading these posts since they are giving me insight into what caused the affair in my own marriage. Lack of affection..no communication....inability to please...lack of sex...the list is long. But if asked to say what is lacking in my marriage I would say the same things. How you deal with these issues is the problem and for me an affair is not the answer. <P> "Reaching out, while all about us swirls,<BR> to find the light of reason, hope and <BR> home."<P> Buffy <BR>

I think Lacee is just giving in to defending herself (which I do all the time) because it seems nothing is enough for the betrayed sometimes. Yes I am what my husband calls a betrayer and I feel badly for hurting him so badly. However, because of my actions it has now become a relationship in which nothing he has done in the past or does presently that hurts me or causes me pain matters. Only what I have done matters. Everything that happened in our marriage to prompt our divorce proceedings and everything that has happened since he discovered what I did while we were separated is now seemingly null and void. Any feelings I have had of pain or neglect have been blithely thrown out the window because there can't possibly be any way that I understand the pain that he has now. Forgive me if I get defensive at times. Yes I handled things in a way that those of you who are stronger would never have chosen. I have learned that that makes me devoid of consideration, devotion, and communication/problem solving skills. This is almost laughable since prior to our separation my husbands superior communication skills included barely speaking to me and telling me he didn't want me to go out with him and his friends from work because the women co-workers acted differently towards him when I was there. I guess at least he was honest? <P>The point is that sometimes it's hard to just defer to the betrayed and humble ourselves in order to regain trust and find forgiveness when all we get is what appears to be a superior attitude. Lacee is not alone. I am in no way defending my action - but I will defend my general character... and popeye's description of me ( a betrayer) is not who I am. <P>------------------<BR>"I believe... this is heaven to no one else but me - and I'll defend it long as I can be left here to linger in silence if I choose to would you try to understand?" - Sarah McLachlan

Oh, here we are again... us versus them.<P>Lacee, you expressed my thoughts exactly.<P>To both betrayers and betrayed, <BR>I've been on both sides of this issue, with two different men, so don't even start to tell me I don't know what either goes through....<P>The only thing I've learned is that "pride goeth before a fall". All of those who believe you are incapable of anything, you just be real careful. Without exception, ALL of us have betrayed someone at sometime in our lives. Maybe you (SOME of the so-called betrayed on this board) have not sexually betrayed your spouse. Good for you. Really. I'm not convinced that you have not betrayed your spouse in other ways, however. There are lots of things my ex did to me that I would never do to him (like tell him to kill himself, call him names, degrade and humiliate him). So, we can talk all day about "I would never do that to them". Duh. Not having sex outside the marriage doesn't make someone a good spouse.<P>Go ahead and point fingers. It will just take that much longer before you figure out your contribution to the sad state of your marriages. Ya see, the self-righteous attitude is only a cloak that keeps someone from looking at their own faults. <P>So, I'll answer the question posed at the top of this thread. To me, there is no difference whether a person has an affair before they leave, or they just leave. Cause, in the end they are gone just the same, right? If a person leaves without an affair at the current time, they are having a "virtual affair" with a future partner (albeit currently unknown to them) in their mind. It doesn't really matter how it ends. The person who leaves has given up on the relationship. Period. End of story. <P>Monen,<BR>I understand your plight all too well. As displayed here, only the sexually-betrayed are allowed to be hurt, angry, or disappointed by the state of their marriage, and seem to feel that only "they" have a handle on what things need to be fixed. Not all betrayed feel this way, but certainly is the case on this thread. Then, if we hold up an arm to the abuse hurled our way, then it must be "rationalization" or "guilt" or whatever. <P>Popeye,<BR>Face it. Your spouse having an affair was a fantastic windfall for you. It must be a wonderful feeling to be so strong and superior. You admit to having faults. What are they? I'm sure some little trifling thing in comparison to the evil monster you are married to? Or at least, you've convinced yourself of such. Bravo.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 17, 2000).]

As one who has betrayed my husband, I want to add my comments to this discussion, for what they're worth.<P>Why do people have affairs? Really that's a question you can learn from any number of books if you want the general statistics and facts.<P>The question, to me, and I think to each of us who has betrayed our mate, is why did *I* have an affair. The question for each of you whose mate was unfaithful, is why did *my mate* have an affair. Maybe I'm stating the obvious (I'm good at that), but that seems like a key distinction.<P>Why was I unfaithful to my husband? I did not have an affair in the true sense of the word. I followed what I grudgingly label a 'compulsion' for now, because that's what they call 'sexual addiction' in books. I hate that term because it makes me feel like I am grasping for an excuse ("I couldn't help it, I have a compulsion!"), but having read a near-perfect description of myself and my behavior under a subheading entitled "Sexual Addiction," I guess I need to face facts.<P>I think finding out why is very important. Now that we have started to figure out why, we have hope and we feel that we have concrete things to grasp and work on.<P>I am supremely lucky in my husband; from literally day one he was looking for hope and trying to help ME. He refuses to let me take all the responsibility to myself, much as I have tried.<P>I feel deep sympathy for those who feel they were driven to an affair because of a cold or uncommunicative mate, and now are struggling to get back into love with someone who is not all that prepared to love them back. I can't imagine the difficulty, and I salute you for doggedly making that effort.<P>I think it's clear to most everyone, whether or not you've been in the situation yourself, that having an affair or otherwise being unfaithful is a bad, bad choice. That in itself does not make you a bad, stupid, thoughtless person; the fact that you are trying to save your marriage is ample evidence to me that you are a good person who has simply made some very bad, stupid, thoughtless decisions.<P>I wish all of you all the best in your own personal battles.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Without exception, ALL of us have betrayed someone at sometime in our lives. Maybe you have not sexually betrayed your spouse. Good for you. Really. I'm not convinced that you have not betrayed your spouse in other ways, however. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If anyone one wants to heal their from infidelity or just have a healthy marriage, they have to take responsibility for their actions and learn from their mistakes. That means both the betrayer and the betrayed. It takes two to create an atmosphere where affairs look attractive. It takes one to act on it.<P>Yes, the betrayed may not have been attentive, may not have cared about her appearance, may have been self absorbed, not communicated, or done any number of things to contribute to an unhappy home life (which maybe you see as betraying behaviours), but THAT doesn't cause or excuse the behaviour of the betrayer. Many people endure hard situations and don't take that road out. I have a friend who's been in a horrible situation for years. She throws herself into her children for solace. Is this going to create a better marriage? Probably not. Exercise didn't help us get back on track either, but it's not destroying someone's self esteem, risking pregnancy and disease, betraying her H, or becoming a liar.<P>If it comes across that I have ever said that "it's all his fault", I definitely don't feel that way. It's not an issue of blame. Where is that going to get you? But I do think accountability is important. You can't overcome your flaws if you don't recognize them. Raising your back up and saying, "that's not me" isn't going to get you as far as relaxing and saying, "Is that me?" <P>I am not attempting to judge every situation, but from what I've read and what I've seen betrayers are selfish, not good communicators (it take 2 to communicate), weak, etc. Does that mean they can't change? Does that condemn them forever? No. Look at the bright side of every coin. This incident is giving you the opportunity to see yourself the way you really are. It is giving you the opportunity to become something better. <P>Through this experience I've learned a whole lot about who I am and what I want. I'm not going to feel self pity and feel labeled because of the way I handled things in the past. I am owning up to my flaws and changing them. I am proud to be honest, glad to be faithful, but I am learning to be more compassionate, patient, more nurturing, and a better communicator. Only by developing those things which I lacked can I hope to avoid this in the future. Isn't that a worthy goal to strive for? <P>These are emotional issues and it is hard to look at yourself when others are looking to you for love, and others are condemning you for your behaviour and you're feeling a whole bunch of conflicting things. Try to see through the "stuff". The point isn't to point fingers, blame, or to judge, but to acknowledge and change.

Popeye, I could not agree with you more. My husband had the affair and can't really explain it. I never suspected he was unhappy. How selfish that he decided to put effort into an affair rather than our marriage. Now he is acting like I am the only woman on earth, better than sliced white bread and I'm supposed to just forgive because he changed his mind!!! It is very hard. I wish he had asked for a divorce at the beginning. I'm sure the pain would have been less.

As a few of you know I am Monen's husband. I used to lurk but now I post. So here goes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monen:<BR>I think Lacee is just giving in to defending herself (which I do all the time) because it seems nothing is enough for the betrayed sometimes. [/qoute]<P>I think she is feeling defensive because the way popeye stated her thought could be construed (or misconstrued) as aggressive.<P>[quote]Yes I am what my husband calls a betrayer and I feel badly for hurting him so badly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We have discussed this and you have stated that you feel badly because you feel cheap not for hurting me. You have stated that I hurt myself by hunting down the information when it was really none of my business.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> However, because of my actions it has now become a relationship in which nothing he has done in the past or does presently that hurts me or causes me pain matters. Only what I have done matters. Everything that happened in our marriage to prompt our divorce proceedings and everything that has happened since he discovered what I did while we were separated is now seemingly null and void. Any feelings I have had of pain or neglect have been blithely thrown out the window because there can't possibly be any way that I understand the pain that he has now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is not true. We are just now starting to address the pre-seperation problems through our counselor and through reading others problems and solutions on the MB so it may seem that way but it just ins't true. And I don't feel like you truely do understand the pain that I have now - but that is niether her nor there. We need to strive toward solving the pre-sep. problems.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Forgive me if I get defensive at times. Yes I handled things in a way that those of you who are stronger would never have chosen. I have learned that that makes me devoid of consideration, devotion, and communication/problem solving skills. This is almost laughable since prior to our separation my husbands superior communication skills included barely speaking to me and telling me he didn't want me to go out with him and his friends from work because the women co-workers acted differently towards him when I was there. I guess at least he was honest? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am not denying that I said that and I will not deny that I have poor communication skills and marriage problem solving skills. If you look in my previous post you will see that I said that these traits that popeye listed are not reserved for betrayers - everyone has them and needs help. The discussion was about the weakness of the betrayers and the incorrect decision(s) that were made out of the combination of these traits and their own weakness. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The point is that sometimes it's hard to just defer to the betrayed and humble ourselves in order to regain trust and find forgiveness when all we get is what appears to be a superior attitude. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is silly to get upset about the betrayed being upset once the betrayer has said 'I am sorry' Just saying those word doesn't clear up all the hurt just like me saying I forgive you doesn't clear up the trust issues. Once you see the forgiveness in my actions then the guilt will go away just like once the betrayed sees 'im sorry' in the betrayers actions, the hurt will go away. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Lacee is not alone. I am in no way defending my action - but I will defend my general character... and popeye's description of me ( a betrayer) is not who I am.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How can you 'defend you general character' with words when your actions read differently? Not just a week ago I busted you in yet another lie concerning your ex. (I contacted him via email and she had a friend call him and tell him not to talk to me - thereby getting around the 'please no more contact' agreement we had. I asked her if she told her friend to contact him and she denied it (again to my face)for about a week). So please do stop. I will defend your character vehemently once we are both secure that your character is what you say it is.<P>And please no one take this as an attack on my wife - I love her very much. I am talking on this board and will attempt to treat her as any other board member.<P>Now, if we look at the original subject it is 'Why do people have affairs'. I am of the opinion that each post should be like this: I know I am weak, etc. but the factors that lead me to make the decision that I did were the following: x, y, z. Now if we neglect the first part about weakness and responsability because 'we already know about it' then it makes sense to neglect the second part because 'we already know about it'. I think we all knew the basic answer to the question - neglect, lack of communication, lack of compatability, etc.. all leading to poor choices, find solice elsewhere, etc...and eventually pain. I would rather someone tell us practical ways to avoid this in the future (i.e. we take a bath every evening and discuss the details of the day). <P>

Ack!!! <P>I think I get what Lacee is saying. I never intended to hurt anyone. I'm still trying to understand all this. I'm in pain because my needs aren't being met, and I feel guilty. Does anyone understand me? Can I figure this out without having everyone jump on me as some kind of shedevil?<P>I get what Popeye is saying. We make our own choices, our own mistakes. If you internalize your behavior by seeing how you made the choices you did you are less likely to make those choices again. If you externalize those choices by seeing how everyone else led you to that decision you are more likely to make that mistake again.<BR>Popeye wants betrayers to own their mistakes. I do to. It means I stand a better chance of not getting hurt again. It means my husband might take me into account next time before travelling that road. It means I didn't open myself up again for nothing.<P>Lacee wants the same thing. She wants to know that her husband has owned his mistakes. That she didn't give up what she saw as happiness and open herself up again to her husband for nothing.<P><P>------------------<BR>"He who loses money, loses much; <BR>He who loses a friend, loses much more;<BR>He who loses faith, loses all."<P>Eleanor Roosevelt.

Hi.<P>I won't address any of the "back-and-forth" that's been going on in this thread. But, I will try to address the original question that was supposed to be the subject of this thread.<P>When I was ten years old, my dad had an affair with a woman fifteen years his junior. I believe at the time, the woman was 20 and my dad was 35...something like that (he's been married to her since I was twelve years old...so, water under the bridge, now). Anyway, I found out about the affair when I was around 18 years old. I started asking my mom questions, and she hesitantly answered. Before I go on, I must say that my parents always did an EXCELLENT job of not bad-mouthing each other. They did an EXCELLENT job of not using me and my brother as pawns in their terrible marriage and divorce. So, my mom told me the facts of the divorce when she thought that I was adult enough to handle the facts. Apparently, I wasn't adult enough to handle any aspect of what she'd told me. I went through a phase where I almost HATED my dad and my step mom. I resented that they acted like this great Christian couple and yet, they were cheaters. I remember feeling quite self-righteous. I remember telling myself that an affair was something that would NEVER happen to me...NEVER. So, for years, even though I told myself that I had forgiven my dad and step mom and that things were fine, somewhere in my heart I was SMUG.<P>So, how/why did I allow an affair to happen to me??<P>I think for one thing, the subject of infidelity was always a subject for which I had very little tolerance. I was VERY self-righteous in that one particular area. As someone else mentioned, "Pride goeth before a fall..." Well, for me, that was true. I was always certain that adultery was the one "BIGGIE sin" for which I would never have to ask forgiveness. Could I have been MORE wrong?? <P>I never opened my eyes to see how the devil was slowly reeling me in. One day, I thought that I had a "pal" online. Then, within a few months, I was in bed with my "pal". It all happened so fast. <P>I guess you've all seen the cartoons in which Bugs Bunny gets hypnotized into a trance and is oblivious to everything and everyone around him EXCEPT for the all powerful CARROT that's in front of him. Well, that's kind of what I felt like...hypnotized by the other man and disillusioned with my husband. If you've never been in that situation, it's really not possible to understand how easy it is to be trapped.<P>And, much to my shame, when I had made the decision to sleep with the other man, I had also resigned in my heart that my marriage was over. What a lie to myself!! I lied to myself so that I could temporarily justify sleeping with another person.<P>In a nutshell, I had been tired of feeling insignificant and ignored for so long, that I gave-in to something that would forever change my life in a terrible way. Nope...being tired or lonely or feeling unattractive and insignificant do not in any way justify my having an affair. Now that I look back, I guess that somewhere in my mind and heart I must have been thinking, "My husband doesn't convey to me that I'm pretty or important or sexy or worth defending. So, by golly, I'll find someone who will convey ALL of those things to me."<P>Those of you who "know" me and have read my posts before know that I do NOT in any way try to justify or defend that I betrayed my spouse.<P>I just want to share my thoughts so that maybe someone else will see things more clearly. Maybe someone will be helped...<P>Jill<P>

Beth,<P>You said it perfectly!<P>Popeye,<P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>These are emotional issues and it is hard to look at yourself when others are looking to you for love, and others are condemning you for your behaviour and you're feeling a whole bunch of conflicting things. Try to see through the "stuff". The point isn't to point fingers, blame, or to judge, but to acknowledge and change. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think there is less difference between the betrayed and the betrayers here than what some people imagine. Popeye, what you just said is exactly what the betrayers here feel as well. We're on opposite sides of the same coin, but I think it's important to remember that it IS the SAME coin.<P>We are all human, we have all made mistakes. The mistakes we have made have been different, but when we hurt our spouses, who's to say that "My hurt is bigger than yours"? You don't know that, because you haven't felt my hurt. And I haven't felt yours. <P>Just know that we are all here to obtain the same goal - to improve our marriages and to heal our hurts, to work through the pain and confusion and come out on the other side happy, healthy and whole.<BR>

Where to begin!<P>First off, great thread, thanks to all for your contributions. Every once in a while a thread comes along, and I say, "got to print that one out."<P>I am the betrayed. It sucks. I agree with a lot of the things the betrayed (popeye) have said here. At some point betrayers CHOOSE to betray. And then, they choose it again, and again, and again. I definetely agree with the poster who said that a betrayal is really a thousand betrayals wrapped up in one.<P>I also have come to believe that most people are capable of having an affair. As a betrayed, I believe I am and was capable of having an affair. Now that I have learned more about the dynamics of affairs, I believe this even more strongly. Many of the betrayed here, will refuse to accept this. Their pain won't allow it. Now that I have learned about the pain firsthand, I think I am less capable than before of actually having an affair.<P>What I don't believe I am capable of, is leaving my marriage and separating myself from my children because of an affair. My W is choosing this for me in my situation.<P>An affair is one thing, choosing an affair over family and childrens emotional well being is quite another.<P>As for the tone of this thread, Lonelysoul said it best, the betrayers who don't give a [censored] are not here. The ones who do care, and are trying to help themselves and others are here. Keep that in mind.

Glad to see things have gotten a little more conciliatory...<P>It really is a vicious cycle. The wayward thinks their marriage is so bad, or that perhaps their spouse doesn't love them anymore, so they justify an affair. After discovery, the betrayed feel horrible about the wayward's behavior, and then they feel justified hurting their spouse (in a miriad of ways).<P>I know I was weak in the area of fidelity. However, I also know that I'm strong in ways my ex cannot even comprehend. Personal responsibility is one of them. I've taken full responsibility for my choice to have an affair and the mistakes I made in my marriage. I confessed and tried with every ounce of my being to save my marriage. <P>To this day, my ex has never taken any responsibility for the pain he caused me. So, he gets to keep on making his mistakes, IMO. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 17, 2000).]

The real reason people have affairs is SELFISHNESS. It is this selfishness which causes us to take our focus off God and put it on ourselves which means that the only thing that matters is that I feel good regardless of who gets hurt in the process. The end result is that everyone gets hurt except Satan who whispered the lie in the betrayers ear and the betrayer fell for the lie much like Eve fell for the lie in the Garden of Eden who in turn enticed Adam.<P><B>The end result is that everyone gets hurt including the betrayer. Had everyone put everyone else first then none of us would be here today.</B><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 17, 2000).]

<BR>I just wanted to say that I learn something new and important just about every time I read one of TheStudent's posts. Thank you very much for opening my eyes - I really needed to hear what you said in this thread.<P>I'd also like to add to what professorg said about selfishness. I agree that selfishness is a fundamental factor. However, in many many cases, it's selfishness on the part of the betrayed that makes an affair look justified. I know that had I been more considerate of my W's needs I would not need to be here today, typing this post. I also know that had my W not shocked me into paying attention, I'd still be a selfish buffoon (I still am, but I'm getting better). I am by no means happy she did what she did, but I am doing my best now. I wasn't before.<P>Slightly Sane<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonesome heart:<BR><B>I had plans of actually pursuing these fantasies. Why? My marriage lacks love, affection, and intimacy. These essential ingredients have been missing for a long time. I'm not sure my marriage can be fixed. I'm looking for a way out. Thank goodness I found this forum and all the good people here have convinced me that an affair is not the way out. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Woo hoo! This is what I am talking about! Everybody has frailties. Everybody hurts sometimes. It's up to us to fix what's really wrong. We can't do that by having affairs. <P>Lonesome Heart, I wish you luck in your journey in divorce or reconciliation. I'm glad you did the responsible thing.

Hi Sunny -<P>Well, you haven't said a word since the creation of this thread and I was just wondering what you think of this.....<P>Has it helped? <P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by professorg:<BR><B>The real reason people have affairs is SELFISHNESS. It is this selfishness which causes us to take our focus off God and put it on ourselves which means that the only thing that matters is that I feel good regardless of who gets hurt in the process. The end result is that everyone gets hurt except Satan who whispered the lie in the betrayers ear and the betrayer fell for the lie much like Eve fell for the lie in the Garden of Eden who in turn enticed Adam.<P>The end result is that everyone gets hurt including the betrayer. Had everyone put everyone else first then none of us would be here today.</B><P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah yes. But then, all of us mere mortals are a curious and fluid mix of the selfish Taker and the selfless Giver.<P>And I believe it would be equally true to say that the real reason marriages deteriorate is SELFISHNESS.<P>You aren't showing affection to your mate? SELFISH!<P>You never show him/her admiration? SELFISH!<P>You never include/join spouse in fun activities? SELFISH!<P>YOU seldom are intimate with him/her because you're tired, it's too much effort, etc. SELFISH!<P>You never help out with the kids, housework, etc.? SELFISH<P>You belittle your mate's opinions? SELFISH!<P>You have an affair with someone who meets some of your needs? SELFISH!<P>You see? The affair doesn't introduce selfishness to the marriage. It just ups the ante.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited May 17, 2000).]