Thank you, popeye, for responding to me specifically. I was beginning to feel invisible here. I like the list that Doug posted of selfish behaviors. Most of them describe how I perceive my H's behavior. Since I'm not a betrayer (yet, and trying to stay that way), I can only speculate. But I'd wager a guess that the list of selfish behaviors are a recipe that preceded many an affair that's described on this board. <P>So here's what I don't understand. A lot of people on this board have difficulty communicating with their spouses. When the spouse continues to remain clueless, how is a person supposed to resist love, affection, and intimacy from another if it happens to come along while the marriage is still in a troubled state? I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me that some of the things described in this site require a lifespan of a century or two!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonesome heart:<BR><B>So here's what I don't understand. A lot of people on this board have difficulty communicating with their spouses. When the spouse continues to remain clueless, how is a person supposed to resist love, affection, and intimacy from another if it happens to come along while the marriage is still in a troubled state?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMHO, if the spouse is clueless it's because the unhappy spouse is not communicating that unhappiness to the clueless spouse. Look on this site and see how many betrayed spouses were in total shock at discovery. My W is a huge conflict avoider and while I knew that there were problems in our marriage, I never knew that she was THAT unhappy, as a matter of fact since being in recovery I have come to find out so many things that my W thought about me and what I thought or felt, some correct, but most were totally and completely off base. While I do feel that I should have been more in tune with my W, it is still up to her to tell me what is going on with her and her thoughts and feelings, I don't know about anyone else on this site, but I'm not a mind reader.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F A:<BR><B> IMHO, if the spouse is clueless it's because the unhappy spouse is not communicating that unhappiness to the clueless spouse. Look on this site and see how many betrayed spouses were in total shock at discovery... I don't know about anyone else on this site, but I'm not a mind reader. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>F A, I am in total agreement with you. If I have learned anything from $8,000 - $10,000 worth of counseling (yikes!) since my H had an affair, it is that very point. Each partner is responsible for asking for what he or she needs. The other partner then knows what the issue is and can respond. They can either say, "Sure, I can do that" or "Nope, it's not going to happen" or "Can we negotiate it?".<P>This kind of communication has been a big help to H and me. There were so many hurts and unfilled needs between us before and now we can talk about anything! No need to worry if the other person is harbouring anger or disappointment! Of course it has taken 2 years to get our communication skills to this point, and there's probably still a long way to go.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Each partner is responsible for asking for what he or she needs. The other partner then knows what the issue is and can respond. They can either say, "Sure, I can do that" or "Nope, it's not going to happen" or "Can we negotiate it?".<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems so simple when stated this way. Why do we humans turn something this simple into something so dificult? Why is communication such a problem for so many people (myself included)?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonesome heart:<BR><B>So here's what I don't understand. A lot of people on this board have difficulty communicating with their spouses. When the spouse continues to remain clueless, how is a person supposed to resist love, affection, and intimacy from another if it happens to come along while the marriage is still in a troubled state? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I think people need to be able to separate the two issues. Just because you are not feeling loved by your significant other doesn't mean you have to take it where you can get it. Just because your spouse and you aren't communicating your needs and feelings doesn't mean you can't learn. Finding someone to pay attention to you doesn't guarantee that they will understand you any better than the spouse did.<P>I am one of the clueless. I was in absolute SHOCK when I found out that my H had been having an affair. Yes, I knew things were a little tense, but nowhere near the degree that he has since expressed. I have always felt that I am there to listen, but apparently, I wasn't listening enough. Just as he wasn't giving me information in a way that I could understand. We can talk about it now though! So, yes, it can be learned.<P>As far as resisting, we can all be tempted, but it is the same as resisting eating food that isn't good for you or doing dangerous things that could kill you. The temptation and thrill are enticing, but you just have to look at the big picture. How much is this really worth? And in the example of infidelity, do I really need to rely on someone else to fulfill my needs or can I find something good within myself to make me feel valued? We don't need a man/woman to make us happy. All single people aren't unhappy. Happiness is an intrisic thing.<P>If you really think this other tempting person is so great, don't you owe it to him/her to give him/her all of you? Shouldn't you wait until you are out of the current relationship to begin anew so that he/she can trust that you won't cheat on him/her?<P>Good stuff is worth working on. Good stuff is worth sacrificing for. Guess you just have to decide which "good stuff" is really good.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by popeye:<BR><B> Well, I think people need to be able to separate the two issues. Just because you are not feeling loved by your significant other doesn't mean you have to take it where you can get it. Just because your spouse and you aren't communicating your needs and feelings doesn't mean you can't learn. Finding someone to pay attention to you doesn't guarantee that they will understand you any better than the spouse did.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You make some very good points in your post, Popeye. My husband and I were lying in bed talking last night (we've been doing a lot of that!) and one thing seemed to crystalize a little bit.<P>On the surface, it might seem that communicating with your mate, someone whom you love, and loves you, would be so much easier than communicating with someone who is essentially a stranger. But this isn't necessarily so, especially if you are (like us) new to marriage, or I suppose also if you are in a long-time rut of only surface communication.<P>My trouble (part of it, anyway) was that I was so afraid of hurting my husband or making him feel angry, disgusted or upset by the things I wanted to say, that I took the 'easy' (short-term) route by confiding these things in near-strangers. What did I care what these other men thought of me? If I angered, disgusted or upset them, no great loss! (Not that I thought that consciously, but I know that's what was going on in my head.)<P>This is just one facet in an extremely complex problem (for all of us, I'm sure), but maybe it will give a little insight on why these things happen.<P>Standard disclaimer: This is not an EXCUSE, it is a REASON, and I know better now!

Contrite,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>On the surface, it might seem that communicating with your mate, someone whom you love, and loves you, would be so much easier than communicating with someone who is essentially a stranger. But this isn't necessarily so, especially if you are (like us) new to marriage, or I suppose also if you are in a long-time rut of only surface communication.<P>My trouble (part of it, anyway) was that I was so afraid of hurting my husband or making him feel angry, disgusted or upset by the things I wanted to say, that I took the 'easy' (short-term) route by confiding these things in near-strangers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is exactly the problem. We "get into a rut." We learn (correctly or incorrectly) how to communicate/interact with our spouse & if we do not understand how to do it properly, then we end up at places like this forum.<P>Without knowing proper communication skills, it becomes difficult and makes us uneasy to discuss important stuff with our spouse because it's not something we are used to doing. When we meet someone new, we have NOT developed a way of communicating with them, so it <I>seems</I> much easier to do it from scratch. But we already know so much about our spouses, if we took the time to learn how to communicate effectively, it would be so much more rewarding for everyone involved.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited May 18, 2000).]

Chris, you are EXACTLY right. Thank you for putting it into words better than I could.<P>This has been the worst thing that ever happened to both of us, but I can't help but feel strangely happy because now we will LEARN how to do these things!<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Contrite:<BR><B> On the surface, it might seem that communicating with your mate, someone whom you love, and loves you, would be so much easier than communicating with someone who is essentially a stranger. But this isn't necessarily so...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>With strangers, we don't have any history, so I think it we tend to make an effort to more clearly define our thoughts and be honest because we have nothing to lose.<P>With people we are close to, we feel they understand us and take short cuts. We think we know them and draw inferences that may not be true without bothering to seek the clarification.<P>My H never asked me to go fishing with him because he bought his boat in the winter and he knew it would be too cold for me. Well, because I understood that reasoning and never expressed anything to the contrary, he didn't ask me to go when it warmed up. I thought he didn't ask me because he'd rather be with his boys. he thought I didn't go because I didn't want to go. Stupid mistunderstanding. All those wasted moments that we could have been together...<P>We often don't pay attention to the visual cues as well as verbal cues. My H said I should have known from his behaviour that he was cheating, but I was only listening to his words when he said, "I love you." <P>It is any wonder we had two different visions of the same relationship?