My H is "thenewbie" as most of you probably know...<P>Anyway I am working part-time (sometimes more) at a bar here in town for extra money to help out with the bills. We live in a major college town and I am young and still enjoy the bar scene. My H does too, actually, but that isn't the point. When H and I decided I should be helping out financially I knew that working in a bar was the only thing I hadn't tried as far as part-time jobs go and figured I'd enjoy learning to bartend.<P>From the very beginning, H was concerned about men hitting on me, etc... especially since I got the job in the midst of the discovery of my activities during our separation. I think now that I've been there almost two months he can see the potential for quite a bit of money coming in as well as the fact that so far I enjoy the job. The problem is that I know he thinks I'm hitting on guys too. Today he went through my tip money from last night and saw a guy's name and number written on one of the dollar bills. I saw it when I counted my tips at the end of the night but didn't think anything of it. I certainly didn't hide it or anything. I don't know what to do about his irritation when things like that happen other than to quit the job (and he vehemently states that he doesn't want me to do that???).<P>He also got all flustered about one of the bouncers squeezing my shoulders twice - feels it's inappropriate. I can understand his ultra-sensitivity (I wasn't understanding at the very first but realized I needed to be) and I told him I would make sure that he didn't do it again.<P>My problem is that he's seemingly hypocritical... he came home from work today and told me in the course of things that it got pretty slow at one point so he and his co-workers took a break to watch the Victoria's Secret fashion show at the Cannes or whatever in realtime via the computer. Why is THAT appropriate?? Going to work and watching women parade around half-naked? Eventually he said he wouldn't do anything like that again after I b****ed but he made sure to throw in that whole "maybe if it wasn't appropriate to you to have your shoulders squeezed at work I wouldn't watch VS at work". Again the whole I am justified because you did it first or worse or whatever. I just feel insane. More of a vent than anything else - if you have any comments please feel free - especially you honey, since I'm sure you'll have something to say. <P>------------------<BR>"I believe... this is heaven to no one else but me - and I'll defend it long as I can be left here to linger in silence if I choose to would you try to understand?" - Sarah McLachlan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monen:<BR><B> I don't know what to do about his irritation when things like that happen other than to quit the job ...<BR>He also got all flustered about one of the bouncers squeezing my shoulders twice - feels it's inappropriate... I told him I would make sure that he didn't do it again...<BR>My problem is that he's seemingly hypocritical... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have to consider what is more important here, the money or your marriage. It's cool to have more money, but if it isn't enhancing your life in ways that are spiritually meaningful, is it worth it? I'd find another job that doesn't cause those problems. I don't think it's the greatest atmosphere for you to be in right now anyway. You're still vulnerable and facing an abundant supply of friendly goodies. <P>The guy touching you, in my opinion, IS inappropriate, but you did what you could to address the H's feelings and make sure it doesn't continue. good for you.<P>Your H IS being hypocritical. Now, I dont think his watching a tv show is a big deal, but if it bothers YOU, he should stop doing it. If he expects his insecurities to be soothed, you are reasonable to expect the same or work out some kind of compromise.<P>Maybe you should discuss what your boundaries should be so that neither of you are taking for granted that the other should "know" what is offensive?

Monen, <P>When I first started this reply, I must admit my intention was to point out that from my chauvinist viewpoint, I would have agreed with your husband that working in a bar environment is a "bad" thing. But I have to thank you for making me think through exactly why I would think that. Your post helped me to find an answer to one of my questions.<P>My conclusion was, there's really nothing wrong with any place of employment. As long as your emotional needs are being met by your spouse, there should be mutual trust.<P>(The same should hold true for vacationing without your spouse. Thanks for your response to my other post.)<P>I have a friend (now divorced) whose situation with his wife sounded somewhat similiar to yours. His wife chose to earn extra money by waitressing at a local biker bar. At first, the situation was mostly legitimate and consisted of casual flirting with customers. As time went on, the situation digressed. Her waitressing wardrobe became more provocative, she began slow dancing with customers, she'd stay after her shift ended to drink with the male patrons and eventually cheated on her husband and left him for one of the patrons she'd become friends with. <P>The key in her situation was that her emotional needs were not being met by her husband. It wouldn't have mattered where she worked once she sought fulfillment of her EN's outside the marriage. <P>I would think that if any physical contact between the bar patrons and the employees or between employees is tolerated by the bar management, that you would consider employment elsewhere.<P>As far as your husband viewing the Victoria's Secret show, you're probably aware of the male visualization, female verbalization "thing". If he wants to watch, no problem. The same statement holds: as long as your emotional needs are being met by your spouse, there should be mutual trust.<P>Just my two cents and then some.<BR>

OK here's the deal - I really don't care if he looks at VS models at home or by himself. I don't think it's appropriate for him to be up at work with half of his co-workers watching it. In what way is that appropriate? That isn't professional behavior. I'm not going to comment on the "it's a guy thing" and "men are visual" comment because it irritates me too much. <P>I do agree on the point that the guy at work shouldn't squeeze my shoulders, so I took care of it.<P>I have said to him that I will quit if there are situations arising that are causing too many problems etc... I won't be resentful and it won't bother me. He says he doesn't want me to (I think partly because he knows I like it but mostly because he wants the money when I have a good night). I would rather quit and be happy and secure that he isn't being doubtful of my activities while I'm gone, but I think it would upset him if I quit for that reason.<P>Anyway, blah blah blah...

Well, I guess I should reply:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>When H and I decided I should be helping out financially I knew that working in a bar was the only thing I hadn't tried as far as part-time jobs go and figured I'd enjoy learning to bartend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually the statement was 'I will not work anywhere else but a bar' (as opposed to waitressing or walmart or grocery store)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The problem is that I know he thinks I'm hitting on guys too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The problem is the opportunities that it presents. If I was an alcoholic which would be a worse job - one at a liquor store or one at church?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Today he went through my tip money from last night and saw a guy's name and number written on one of the dollar bills. I saw it when I counted my tips at the end of the night but didn't think anything of it. I certainly didn't hide it or anything. I don't know what to do about his irritation when things like that happen other than to quit the job (and he vehemently states that he doesn't want me to do that???).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I 'went through' the tip money to change it into larger bills. I saw the phone number and asked about it (she reassures me that noone ever hits on her - drunk college guys are her clientel and no one notices she is an sttractive girl - right) She said she noticed it but didn't think anything about it and the proof was that it was in the jar out in the open. I was irritated for about 5 minutes but after thinking about it I dismissed it as me being stupid and that was the end.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He also got all flustered about one of the bouncers squeezing my shoulders twice - feels it's inappropriate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First of all the 'squeezed my shoulders twice' was called a massage by her as well as myself at first - and now it is all of the sudden just a squeeze.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can understand his ultra-sensitivity (I wasn't understanding at the very first but realized I needed to be) and I told him I would make sure that he didn't do it again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is not ultra sensitivity. A person at her work is putting his hands on her (my wife) in an inappropriate manner. Only after several rounds of questioning did she fess up to this massaging. She doesn't care but I did so I expressed this to her. Her reaction was 'either he can do that or I will quit' because she didn't want to make things uncomfortable for him by her telling him not to do it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My problem is that he's seemingly hypocritical... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will agree with this although I hadly see massages and the Cannes Fashion Show in the same league. Especially since I didn't have sex with one of the models.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he came home from work today and told me in the course of things that it got pretty slow at one point so he and his co-workers took a break to watch the Victoria's Secret fashion show at the Cannes or whatever in realtime via the computer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I offered the information. I didn't think about it at the time but I did once she pointed it out to me. She did know it was inappropriate and I had to question her about it before she told me (I guess we are moving in the right direction - she is telling me now whereas before she would have just lied about it)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why is THAT appropriate?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agreed that it isn't appropriate (I suppose it was eventually but the discussion was one sided at the time) and I will not do something like that again. She has yet to agree that massages are inappropriate and begrudginly agreed to try to not let it happen again.<P>Now as far as quitting the job or my love of the money. We make it without the money and I have told you time and time again that I will support you in anything that you do if it makes you happy. If you want a job at a bar then fine if you don't want a job at a bar then fine but don't let guys give you massages - I thought that would be something I wouldn't have to verbalize to you but I am slowly finding out that I do have to talk with you about every single line that needs drawing.<P>

Some more I guess:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In what way is that appropriate? That isn't professional behavior<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is inappropriate and not professional - I told you that yesterday and have agreed not to carry on such behavior.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do agree on the point that the guy at work shouldn't squeeze my shoulders, so I took care of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is a miracle and the first I have heard of it - I retract my statement from my earlier post concerning this.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have said to him that I will quit if there are situations arising that are causing too many problems etc... I won't be resentful and it won't bother me. He says he doesn't want me to (I think partly because he knows I like it but mostly because he wants the money when I have a good night). I would rather quit and be happy and secure that he isn't being doubtful of my activities while I'm gone, but I think it would upset him if I quit for that reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You stated that you would quit rather then tell the guy to stop and make a scene of it. And I would be lying (spelled correctly thank you) if I said I didn't like the extra money (sometimes 50-70$ a night!) but it is just that - extra. And I know you love this job so I would never require that you quit. But we aren't in a place in our marriage that you can get massages from your co-workers, I am sorry, maybe a few years from now.<P>

I stopped calling it a massage because I realized that to you that meant that the guy was behind me rubbing me down for several minutes. It wasn't that way it was just a squeeze so I put it in those terms so you'd get it.<P>I'm sorry if I choose not to get a part-time job that I already know I hate. If you wanted me to be so darn happy and it wasn't about the money you wouldn't be so quick to stick me in a job that I've told you I can't stand. Wal-Mart?? If we were doing fine without the money why on earth would you suggest I work at Wal-Mart? That was probably the worst job I ever had. The point is that I will quit the job if it bothers you, but it is the only part-time evening position that I can come up with in this town that doesn't totally suck rocks. If we can do without the money until I can get my degree and a "real" job then fine.<P>You can't equate one sexual experience with an ex while we were getting a divorce with alcoholism. It doesn't add up. <P>I wasn't implying that you shouldn't count my tip money.<P>What the hell are you talking about "several rounds of questioning"?? You e-mailed me ONCE and asked if anyone at work had been trying to get close to me and I told you straight up that the only thing like that that had happened was that Mike had given me "massages" on two occasions. You blew up (as much as a person can "blow up" via e-mail) about inappropriateness and I told you I thought you were being a little weird. I never said I'd rather quit than tell him to stop, you just inferred that when I offered to quit afterwards. <P>What does having sex with any of the models have to do with watching the show at work? <P>I will state again that no-one is giving me massages at work. If I had thought about what most people consider a massage I would not have used that word. The guy who squeezed my shoulders does that to everyone (I've since been watching him to find out) including male co-workers.<P>Anyway I think you are way off-base as usual, but it doesn't matter. I am the betrayer here. <P>

The bottom line here is that neither one of you is doing a paricularly good job at the Rule of Protection: protecting your spouse from lovebusting behaviors.<P>Bottom line Monen: use the POJA and discuss alternatives that you can both live with. If leaving the job is one of those, than do it. Your husband has indicated his discomfort with it---you're acting with disrespect to his objections. Resolve it with a win-win.<P>The newbie: Same for you. You're looking at VS fashion show, and then justifying it with EXTREMELY disrespectful behavior towards your wife. "But I didn't sleep with one of the models"...<P>Congratulations. I just bet that builds a TON of love between the two of you. Fighting for who's opinion is right...<P>The best advice I can tell the two of you is first---NO LOVEBUSTING. Learn to resolve these issues in a loving, caring way by using the POJA.<P>And then, why don't you both try meeting each other's needs. Without worrying about who did what to whom.<P>This will get you back on the path to romantic love quicker than anything else.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I stopped calling it a massage because I realized that to you that meant that the guy was behind me rubbing me down for several minutes. It wasn't that way it was just a squeeze so I put it in those terms so you'd get it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do you refer to it as a massage to anyone else? Either way it is inappropriate touching of you, my wife.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm sorry if I choose not to get a part-time job that I already know I hate. <snip><BR>get my degree and a "real" job then fine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Anything that you want to do is fine with me. Just carry yourself and guard your actions like a person that is married please.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You can't equate one sexual experience with an ex while we were getting a divorce with alcoholism. It doesn't add up.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The pull of the (generic) OM is like an addiction and has often been referred to as an addition on this very board.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What the hell are you talking about "several rounds of questioning"?? You e-mailed me ONCE and asked if anyone at work had been trying to get close to me and I told you straight up that the only thing like that that had happened was that Mike had given me "massages" on two occasions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Snip from the email:<BR>> Is anyone at work getting close with you?<P>I'm not sure what you mean by this but no...<P><BR>Snip from next email:<BR>> And what I mean by close is inappropriate discussion (talking about your<BR>> breasts or crude remarks toward you), inappropriate touching (messages or<BR>> patting), anything like that.<P>There hasn't been any inappropriateness.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You blew up (as much as a person can "blow up" via e-mail) about inappropriateness and I told you I thought you were being a little weird. I never said I'd rather quit than tell him to stop, you just inferred that when I offered to quit afterwards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Snip from email:<BR>If you want<BR>>me to jerk away at the slightest touch from anyone for the rest of my life I<BR>>will, but I'd rather just quit the job all together.<BR> <P>This has nothing to do with betryer or betrayed. What the guy is doing is inappropriate and I asked you to have him stop and you said you would rather quit. From now on I will concentrate on following K's advice and not LBing. And I would like your help in doing this, please bust me when I LB. Tell me I am doing it and hopefully together I will be able to control and eventually eliminate my urges to LB. Sound like a plan?<P><BR>[This message has been edited by thenewbie (edited May 19, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by thenewbie (edited May 19, 2000).]

Hey kids:<P>Looking on each of your posts, they are so full of disrespectful judgements that I would strongly urge you to go to the Bookstore here and order<P>1. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Lovebusters</A><P>2.<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6010_give.html" TARGET=_blank>Give and Take</A><P>I can remember the pattern that you two are exhibiting pretty well from my "old" marriage. Please read these books and understand WHAT you are doing to each other's love by exhibiting these behaviors, and how you can learn to eliminate them.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR>Hey kids:<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>kids is right. I would like to apologize to those that have to hear our carrying on and I would especially like to apologize to Monen.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can remember the pattern that you two are exhibiting pretty well from my "old" marriage. Please read these books and understand WHAT you are doing to each other's love by exhibiting these behaviors, and how you can learn to eliminate them.<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess that means there is hope?<P><p>[This message has been edited by thenewbie (edited May 19, 2000).]

UGH! Monen, I can understand your frustration...<P>Good luck to you...<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would like to apologize to those that have to hear our carrying on and I would especially like to apologize to Monen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No need to apologize, conflict is good. Say what you have to say and use whatever means is necessary to say it. You would not believe the number of times I have held ICQ conversations with my wife who is sitting not 3 feet away. Our computers sit right next to each other but we seem to get more said by sending the message out through the internet.<P>Hey, whatever works, use it.<P>

With all respect to Joe:<P>Conflict is NOT good.<P>Honesty is good. <P>The key here is to learn to be COMPLETELY HONEST in a way in which doesn't use lovebusters. It's probably the hardest part of the "MB" plan to implement, and it's why I don't usually suggest complete honesty to people who don't have a firm control of their lovebuster and good communication skills with their partner.<P>And of course there's hope (and lots of it) for your marriage---it's just that I remember when I didn't think that this kind of arguing was a big deal. It is---it'll kill your love for each other. <P>Don't worry about apologizing to us (we don't matter). Your wife is another story. And Monen---vice versa.

thenewbie, <A HREF="http://www.sosuave.com" TARGET=_blank>www.sosuave.com</A> <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>The key here is to learn to be COMPLETELY HONEST in a way in which doesn't use lovebusters. It's probably the hardest part of the "MB" plan to implement, and it's why I don't usually suggest complete honesty to people who don't have a firm control of their lovebuster and good communication skills with their partner.<BR>.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The problem that we keep bumping into is that I am having a difficult time of letting go of the idea that everything that she tells me should be held in suspicion of being a lie. So it quickly escalates our talkes into discussions.<P>Lacee: When you say 'I understand your frustration' do you mean I get frustrated with Newbie too or I have been through this and I understand where you are coming from? If you have been through this then give us or me some advice on how to correct the current situation. If you are frustrated with me then please tell me why and we can talk about it. <P>

It's embarrassing that you all have to read how completely unable we are to even have a conversation.<P>As much as you guys keep saying that it's good that we're both here - I feel like it's making things worse for me. It's embarrassing to argue in front of everyone and I feel like I have to defend myself constantly because half of what H posts here isn't even presented accurately. Then I feel like a ridiculous child for even bothering with the little details.<P>Ack! Nevermind!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monen:<BR><B>It's embarrassing that you all have to read how completely unable we are to even have a conversation.<P>As much as you guys keep saying that it's good that we're both here - I feel like it's making things worse for me. It's embarrassing to argue in front of everyone and I feel like I have to defend myself constantly because half of what H posts here isn't even presented accurately. Then I feel like a ridiculous child for even bothering with the little details.<P>Ack! Nevermind!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it is good, not necessarily that we hash things out here, but that we both take advice from here that we at least acknowledge is good even it we don't put it into practice.<P>I agree it is embarassing but almost everyone can relate and give good advice because they have been where we are. They don't look down on us they just say 'I have been there and I know it gets better so quit screwing around and head toward the better'<P>And why would you make the statement that 1/2 of my posts are inaccurate? Even if you think they are, I thought we agreed to work on LBing?<P>

Isn't posting things inaccurately (I know you are aware when you are being inaccurate - there's no way that you couldn't) a LB in itself? Guess were at an impass once again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monen:<BR><B>Isn't posting things inaccurately (I know you are aware when you are being inaccurate - there's no way that you couldn't) a LB in itself? Guess were at an impass once again. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes it is. I apologize and will attempt to only post accurate posts. But even more so there is no reason really (I guess from this point on) to post anything that is controversial - it would only be a he said/she said and would be considered an LB. So no impass only clear road ahead.<P>