I think I have about had it. H shows less respect for me daily and even though I know I haven't done a great plan A , its not going to get any better. I am ready to say , make a choice. I am not holding you here, if you will be happy eleswhere go, but you deceide to be in this marriage or be out of it. I am going to start LB bad at any moment. Maybe I have been listening to to many outside people who tell me to stand up for myself, I have done more of the plan a dormat plan than the strong I'm a better person plan. But I'm not sure I can be a strong better person with him here, with me worring about annoying him by every thing I do. Every thing I say a LB, every time I leave the house a chance for him to be with OW, Him avoiding me and not speaking to me and forcing me into asking questions just to know what we are doing, then calling them LB. <BR> So he will win, he will force me to make the first move, be the bad guy. He is just the long suffering poor H with the ***** of a wife. I will start my plan B letter. Where are those links ? Any advice welcome, any ideas to help me continue plan a in a better manner for a bit, please give it.<BR>Lora

Hi Lora -<P>I am on my way to work.....<P>In short - NO!!!!<P>Talk to you later when I get home.<P>DEEP BREATHS and work through your anger and frustration....<P>READ.....go through some threads, the principles, etc.<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

Hi Lora...<P>I know...<BR>...times are tough.<P>I called by W last night to see if we can simply discuss visitation...<BR>...she asked me to e-mail her on Sunday...<BR>...I did...<BR>...and on Monday... and on Thursday...<BR>...and even called her Tuesday to ask her to look at the e-mails...<BR><B>and then</B>...<BR>...last night... she says she "<B>has a life</B>"... and didn't look at any of the e-mails...<BR>They (e-mails) were all about the kids activities <B>this</B> weekend... ugh...<BR>I, of course, got laiden down with a few more 'F... ..U's and another choice other word.<BR>So her <I>life</I> goes on... <P>Oh well...<BR>...enough about me.<P>You asked...<BR>Here they are...<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011323.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101</A>... as a reminder...<BR>Sure it's hard...<BR>...even for me... <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011046.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101</A> has a bunch of links to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> letters... and... some good additional ones (from guys)...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000098.html" TARGET=_blank>Help with Plan B letter (from Hi Infidelity)</A> <BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000032.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan-B Letter; The final cut...(from WilliamJ)</A>.<P>It never hurts to have a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> letter waiting... even if you don't make it to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>! It makes you think through the possibilities of your action to follow through on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>!<P>Love... <P>Jim

Thanks Jim and Sheba,<P> I guess what is making me crazy is this weekend. I feel I will go insane if I have to live through another weekend like the last one where He hid in the computer room and I tried to think of things to do with him. I feel like I am begging for a little human kindness and only get less than nothing. I asked at work today if I could go to full time. It will mean I don't see H except 3 nights a week and and on a weekend every 4 weeks. I feel I need to prepare for living on my own. Maybe I can plan A if I don't see him, and he will get to see OW more and can make up his mind to move in with her sooner. <BR> I feel like such a failure. I can't do it. I know I need to work on myself, I just feel I could do it better without him. I can't handle this pain. I can't handle the look of hatred in his eyes.<BR>Lora

Lora,<BR> Your neighbor here in Seattle.<BR> Don't think of yourself as a failure.This has to do with him.As I found out,you can't make somebody love you.It does sound like he's waiting for you to make the next move.Maybe he fiqures if he ignores you,and puts you down enough,you'll move out,or kick him out.<BR> Since you can't force him to do anything with you on the weekends,and it's driving you crazy,maybe you should just get out of the house and go visit some friends.Just a thought.I wish I had more advice for you,but I don't have much room to talk.<BR> Try to get out and enjoy the nice weather we're suppose to have this weekend,with or without your H,OK? Hang in there. <BR> --Murph

Murphy I know, I want to go to the university street fair with a friend, but felt since it was H last weekend off til July that I should spend it with him. So now I feel guilty about not wanting to spend it with him when Steve told me I should, but not wanting to have another uncomfortable, miserable weekend either. <BR>Lora

Well Lora..the real queation is does he want to spend it with you? (The weekend) I know this is probably very difficult, but if he doesnt really want to be with you..its a LB to be with him. I have been struggleing with the same thing with my wife. I want to spend time with her, do fun things with her.<BR> However, she just ends up feeling sad or bummed out, then I get hurt and then I start LB'ing because I feel hurt that she cant have a good time with me. Does that make any sense? Good luck.<P>VAFORME

Hi Lora -<P>You need to relax....you are way too <BR>anxious and have too many expectations I <BR>think.<P>The first thing you need to do is to <BR>decide whether you are going to do this <BR>or not.....you are sitting on a fence as <BR>much as your foggy minded H is!!! You <BR>are supposed to be the clear headed one <BR>darling!!!!<P>I wrote a post on Missy's "need a <BR>reason" thread that might help you - go <BR>read it if you haven't already!!!<P>Plan A is not keeping yourself on <BR>eggshells with H....it is deciding you <BR>want your marriage and working ONLY <BR>towards that goal. Nothing else plays a <BR>part.....not H (only with lb's), not OW, <BR>not friends and family's opinions, not <BR>"trying to get him to react" not <BR>anything like that.<P>YOU have to start being consistant, <BR>strong and steady in who you are and <BR>what you want. Otherwise you are being <BR>as dippy as he is!!!!<P>I know that this is hard. But this is <BR>the time that you have to be strong for <BR>your husband. "better or worse" - <BR>remember that part? H is weak and <BR>confused and needs you to be a "safe" <BR>zone for him to wake up to.....<P>You can't keep waffling back and forth.<P>You say that you will do better with him <BR>gone....how would you know that? It is <BR>harder when they are gone!!!! What you <BR>are really wanting is a break from doing <BR>this work!!!! Plan A is a retraining of <BR>your behavior and is something that you <BR>keep doing forever. It is not just a <BR>onetime thing to get him to notice and <BR>all of a sudden life is grand!!!!<P>Lower your expectations.<P>For the weekend....ask him if he wants <BR>to go to this fair - if he says no and <BR>then has no intention of doing anything <BR>with you - then tell him that you are <BR>sorry that he feels this way and you <BR>wish there was something you could do to <BR>help him out of his funk. Ask him if he <BR>minds if you go with your friend or if <BR>he would rather you stuck around. If he <BR>says go - then go. If he hesitates or <BR>says he doesn't know or care.....ask him <BR>why he doesn't? <P>Do not get mad or upset....be as calm <BR>and positive as you can with him. No <BR>need to have two poopy attitudes going on <BR>- what good would that do!!!<P>Just keep saying to yourself...."he is <BR>confused and has no mind....He is <BR>confused and has no mind!!!!!"<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited May 20, 2000).]

Sheba,<P> I need to have a tape from you that I can play in my ear and get brainwashed into knowing what to do and how to do it. <P> I do know I want this, but I don't have the confidence in myself to think I can pull it off. I'm not sure I ever really trusted in H love, even when he was showing it, so how to beleive I can get it back. And then there is that problem... if he could love me, there must be something wrong with him anyway.<P> I will try your suggestion for the weekend. I think I can do it. The problem is he won't speak at all. I am prepared to deal with a no response, but the lack of response is what really pushes my buttons. How to deal with that, assume it means no? <P> Thanks for not giving up on me, even when I seem too thick headed to get with the program. I am blond, maybe I am dippy, I have always been indecisive. So has my H. We both seem to be easily influenced by outside sources.<P> Lora<P><BR>

Hi Lora -<P>You still on? I hope you see this before you attempt anything.....<P>I have some ideas from this last post of yours....<P>The first is that you need to talk more about how you and H are, how you have interacted in the past as opposed to now, what you think needs to change, etc. We can give you some goood feedback and it will help you see what you need to do and how to do it.<P>Second, from what you say here, it sounds like both of you need to begin some personal growth. Time to take this opportunity to change some of the not so good habits you have. A marriage is a living thing and living things need to grow!!!!<P>You need some confidence boosting perhaps, but I think that it is more that you need to learn different ways of expression when you are hurt or upset. Anger and "running" don't give you what you want. We can help with that. I think that you need to work out these feelings about "love" that you have. It will help tremendously.<P>While you work on YOU....you still need to be able to communicate with H as effectively as possible. Not an easy feat, but not as difficult as your fears are making it out to be.<P>This thing with H not speaking at all..is this part of the "norm" with him or is it a phase of the fog? How do you usually handle it? Just ask questions, etc. and then get frustrated and storm away? <P>I think that whatever you usually do has to change.....a monkey wrench needs to be thrown into this pattern. <P>I know that whenever my H would try the silent treatment....I would absolutely lose my mind!!! That solution (silence) always seemed like the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard of. I used to get right up in his face and start making silly faces.....I kept doing it until I got some response. Didn't matter if he got mad - at least it was a response!!!!<P>If he started yelling I would simply say that if he was gonna act like a kid then I wanted to play too!!!!!<P>I don't know why he is behaving this way at this particular time.....use your instincts!!!! Is there something that he may want from you? Some kind of olive branch you could give? When did this start? What was happening that may have brought it on? Is he contemplating the marriage?<P>Give him some hope....You can talk to this man - for goodness sakes he is supposed to be your PARTNER not your enemy!!! I know that it is scary and nervewracking, but that is only in our minds. Think about it.....there was a time when you and H could talk about anything. A time when you both couldn't wait to see each other and talk your little hearts out!!! This is the same man and you are that same woman. You are just both under a pile of garbage.<P>Time to start getting out from under it!!!!<P>Why not ask him if this is his solution to the problems going on? Tell him that you have been learning about how to better yourself and need some input on what he thinks that you need to do to be a better wife and partner. Let him speak and DO NOT JUDGE what he says.<P>Thank him for helping you to see what needs improvement and that you are working towards a better you to help both of you grow into a more fulfilling marriage and life together. Perhaps he will want to know how?<P>You need to show your changes for the better. He may learn from your example.<P>Just some things to ponder......<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

Hey Sheba,<P> I will need to think more about your questions and answer them more completely, but off the top of my head....<P> We have always both been conflict avoiders and have never communicated well. I am afraid of anger and I usually react by being hurt and crying. He usually reacts by getting angry then pulling back into a shell and not speaking much. But this total not ansering questions and not speaking to me at all is new in the past month or so. I try to just tell him about my day and not ask questions, but his lack of any response about me and my day or about him and what he has been up to drives me to question him every time. <BR> I have never been able to really share my feelings and feel safe to be myself. I feel if he or anyone really knew me with all my faults, it would be the end of our relationship.<P> I have tried to ask him for help to work on being a better wife to him and my problems and I get the same ... no response. I guess I have been a little afraid to ask what his solution to our problems would be. <P> I think my instinct tell me he want me to leave him. He doesn't want to work on our marriage and he wants to leave with as little fuss as possible. If he can totally shut me out and not give me a thing I will eventually give up as I have been thinking about.<BR> So I think I can do your suggestion about the weekend. I will let you know ho it goes.<BR>Lora<p>[This message has been edited by Lora (edited May 20, 2000).]

If you think that he is acting like this to try to get you to leave, then why not ask him? <P>Just come out and say that you have noticed this strange silence for the past month and are concerned about his mental health......Is he OK? Why is this happening? Is he trying to push you away to the point that he thinks you will leave or divorce him? <P>Tell him that that is not going to happen.....tell him that you are in this for the long haul and love him. Tell him that you want to be happy and want him to be also. Tell him that you feel that you can both get through this together......tell him that you believe in him and you believe in the marriage.<P>Perhaps it will penetrate....maybe it will show him that you aren't going to "play this silly waiting game." If he has something to say than say it - might be what gets through to his brain.<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>PS - Oooooh, I just had another thought!! How about putting these things in a letter.....you can give it to him before you go to the fair if he doesn't go with you. When is the fair? Is it today or tomorrow that you want to go? Do we have time to compose something?<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited May 20, 2000).]

Its tomorrow so I could write something. I have written before and still get no response. I have asked him if he wanted me to be the bad guy and get a divorce awhile ago and he just said do you want a divorce? I said no, I love you and want to work on our marriage, and we left it at that. I probably didn't ask him in a non LB way and I didn't tell him what I would do to try and improve things.<P> The thing that worries me is every time I try to approach him by letter or by talking it just seems to be a LB and he just gets more and more remote. It has made me afraid to try.<BR> But lets compose that letter, help me with suggestions please. What have I got to loose?<BR>Lora<BR>

OK Lora -<P>Do you still have a copy of the letter you wrote before? Do you remember what you wrote?<P>Write something up using what I have already mentioned and adding any personal references to make it fit the circumstances.<P>I have to get off here for a bit but will be back later to take a look and we can revamp and revamp it until it is LB free!!!!<P>Chin up girl!!!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

Hows this..<P> H, I have noticed you getting more sileint and unhappy with me , with your family, with your life. I am so concerned for you. Are you OK? <BR> Why do you think this is happening? What do you want to do to help improve the situation?<BR> Sometimes I wonder if you are trying to push me away to the point where I will leave you. But, H, that is not going to happen. I love you and believe in our marriage. I want to be happy and want you to be happy too. I feel we can get through this together.<BR>Lora<BR>

<snip>I think my instinct tell me he want me to leave him. He doesn't want to work on our marriage and he wants to leave with as little fuss as possible. If he can totally shut me out and not give me a thing I will eventually give up as I have been thinking about.</snip><P>Some of your descriptions sound like my H too. I keep thinking I need to find a way out of my marriage because I have little confidence that I can get him to participate in the techniques described at this site. Communication (lack thereof) is a problem for us. I have little hope that he'll change. <P>But yet.... I keep coming here and reading posts every day. There was another thread today from a very frustrated, angry, and abused woman. One of the responses was something to the effect "how can we help you? this board is for mending marriages, and if you want out, then why are you here?" Lora, I too have a mindset that my marriage may not survive. But you're here and I'm here. What does that tell you? It tells me that we're not finished trying. <BR>

Hi Lora -<P>Sorry that it is so late......had a crazy day here.....<P>I also asked Lori to come by and help, she is busy, but will try in the AM.<P>Let's see what we can do with this. I am a woman of words (like you can't tell, with the novels I write!!! LOL)<P>I think what you wrote needs some padding to get across the love, care and concern you have for him and the immediate need of ending this non-communication state he is in.<P>Here's my rough draft.......reword it to fit you better if you need to.<P>One of the important things that I don't know is how your H takes to humor....I usually interact with it as much as possible because I feel it breaks the defensive ice that might be around. Let me know how he would receive this.<P>Hey Baby (or whatever you call him),<P>There are so many things that I want to tell you but am afraid to. There are so many things that I want to ask you, but am afraid to. There are so many things that I want to do with you, but am afraid to. I asked myself awhile back why it is that I have all this fear standing in the way between me and the man I love? How could that happen?<P>Then I realized that I play a big role in creating this atmosphere. I began an active search of just what it is that happens in marriages that it can get to this point when the people involved just can't communicate.<P>What I discovered is that it is usually not one particular thing that causes it, but a slow progression of little things that add up. Like a snowball rolling down a hill - it starts out small, you can faintly hear a noise as it's coming down, but you don't really see it until it is this huge ball about to hit and then you both go splat!!! Like in a cartoon!!!<P>Has this happened to us? I see you looking so sad....or angry. I feel you pulling away....not just from me, but from your family and even your life!! I am scared....for you, for us. Are you as afraid to talk with me as I am to talk with you? Or even more?<P>I don't want to see this continue to create the big canyon between us. We can change what is happening, what we are allowing to happen by simply opening up to each other. I know that it hard, we may not have been the greatest communicators that ever lived to begin with.....but even we aren't this bad!!<P>I know that things have happened or are still happening where we have hurt and are hurting each other. I am beginning to change that all that I can now that I have discovered how to be a better partner to you. <P>I love you, (H)!! I never intentionally set out to hurt you or us. I now know that I need to be more aware of my behaviors and words and how they affect you and others. I am learning and growing and it feels good. I would love it if you would give me some input as to what you feel you need from me. <P>I want to apologize if my asking you questions has started to bug you lately. I see you have taken to not responding to me at all and that hurts. Perhaps it is too many questions? If so, I am sorry. To tell you the truth, I hate it that I felt compelled to ask so many. Just my way of trying to get that snowball off of us I guess. <P>Sometimes I wonder if you are trying to push me away to the point where I would leave you or something? Are you? That isn't going to happen babe (or whatever)!<P>I love you and I know that we can work this through. I believe in you and our marriage and am going to do all that I can to be a better spouse. Right now, neither one of us are very happy, but with some talking and doing, we can be happier than we ever were. Happiness doesn't just happen, you have to create it for yourself!! With your help, we can create not only a better, happier marriage, but a great one!!! <P>I know that you are going through something....exactly what - I am not sure. I just want you to know that whatever is bothering you, we can work it out together. Neither of us is perfect and the whole purpose of life is to learn to be better. We will fail at some things, but it is what we learn and do after that is important.<P>Can you start to share with me? I hope that you can. I want you to and I want to be able to do the same. We need to ease this tension.....Help me get this snowball off of us, OK?<P>Love,<P>Lora (or whatever he may call you) <P><BR>I am typing this right on here, so I may not like it when I see it all at once. What do you think? Does it work? Is it too far from how you would be or is it close enough if you were to have been learning about marriages? We can change anything you want.<P>Hugs, <P>Sheba<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited May 21, 2000).]

Thanks sheba,<BR> Great letter, Please read my new thread , I am not sure any of this applies any more.<BR> <BR> Lonesome Heart, Yes, even with him saying he wants out, I had to bargin to keep him in the house. I am not done hoping yet. But I agree, I don't think he wants to change, maybe I am changing to want more than he is able to give.<BR>Lora<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lora (edited May 21, 2000).]