If you can't tell by the number of my post's I am having a difficult time this week for many reasons.<P>The biggest of which is the lying.....and my husbands complete denial of the past and lack of memory of events.....which are not all denial tactics...I have caught him with memory lapses when I know he is NOT lying.<P>Anyway......A counselor, when hearing of my H's bizaar behavior and his lack of sleep and his behavior starting after a trip to asia with coworker....suggested looking up deprogramming and cult info.<P>Well, found some interesting reading. In sheeps clothing is a excerpt from a book on understanding and dealing with manipulative people. (you cant say OP's name without people saying she is manipulative)<P>I would describe her as covertly aggressive. I think i have already described her as "the mouth" because she is always talking, always filtering...She has filtered info to and from my H for the past two years......I knew this, but didn't realize how destructive it could be...I would just roll my eyes. <P>Some of the tactics used by covert agressives include denial,selective inattention, rationalization, diversion, lying, covert intimidation (which includes creating self doubt, and a submissive position.)shaming, playing the victim role. (this is what OP did......complained about her horrible husband and life etc.etc.)<BR>while playing the servant role (another tactic),......she ingratiated herself to my husband.<P>Another common tactic is seduction....charming praising flattering or overtly supporting others to get their defenses down and surrender their trust and loyalty. They know their victims well. The victim is usually currently or always emotionally needy and dependent. coverts also will find a scapegoat.<P>Anyway, its and interesting article and I e-mailed the deprogrammer who sent me a link to an article on how a cult could be as large or small as an employee/boss!!!!!<P>Not that any of this really helps, but it was interesting reading.<P>OP is very shrewd.. I am figuring this out via her H....she will tell my H "you better be nice to your wife so you will feel better about yourself....and "my H is a better dad than you...you better be with your kids". Then, when he does come over more....she freaks out to her H that he is spending too much time over here and she is worried he will be coming home.....<P><BR>I am piecing this together with his conversations with "the mouth" I know they must talk alot, because ANY time he has ever been on the phone with me she calls from work or whereever.....PLus he'll tell me that if he's at work she'll call and talk to him for hours......<P>she is actually manipulating both. Her H caters to her every whim...takes care of the kids and all the details of life while via my H she can get money and prestige....<P>I'm thinking a deprogrammer is what we need.!!!!!!!!!!

I found that site and read the book exerpt. It frightened me because it descibes exactly how my h lives his life.<P>Had we not gone through a year of counseling following his EA, I would never have guessed that he was anything other than the most self centered passive person in the world.<P>I now see that his use of these techniques (all of which he has mastered to perfection) is a means of exerting control. My h's special skill is in nonverbal communication. He wrote his ow a letter professing his love at the beginning of their affair. At the time, although there had been years of flirting right under my nose, the two of them had never had a private conversation. Incredibly, she responded in kind and the ea was off and running until they got caught. I cannot believe my H, who revels in the appearance of godliness and stability, wrote that letter without concern for exposure to her h, to our pastor (her boss), to our mutual friends, or to me. Despite the lack of prior verbal communication, he had guessed exactly correctly how she would respond. The book exerpt helps me understand a lot, but in my wildest imaginings, I cannot imagine taking such a leap of faith.<P>The article does help me to live with my frustrations without believing that I am crazy or imagining things. My h and his former ow continue in all aspects of their lives to be victims and always manage to make me question my thoughts and feelings with the result that I often feel like the bad guy.<P>During their ea, the mind games were unbelievable and especially effective because I didn't know about her. My h had just told me that he was unhappy with our marriage and that he wanted to separate to have a chance to find the right woman for him. Meanwhile we were seeing her at small group church functions several times each week. (In our church and community, she enjoys a reputation next to sainthood.) Ow is still around but not involved with my h.<P>Nevertheless, the covert aggressiveness in my h's personality continues. I just don't know how to adjust my life to this new information. Do you have a source that addresses how we live with these people?

Wow-that sounds just like my h OW. She is all of those things and more. Very interesting reading. I'm gonna look it up and print it and bring it with me to my counselor this week. It would be interesting to see what he thinks about it. <P>My h had the kids today and he is over at his sisters house for a basketball Party (knicks playoffs). Come to find out the entire family is there again. All but me. I am never ever invited or included anymore. His family is great to me but they really don;t realize how much it hurts when I am the one who is constantly excluded. <P>They all want my h there because he loves sports and get really into the game. He makes the party fun. <P>

To Missy and others:<P>I had originally begun reading the exerpt thinking how much it applied to my h's ow. She truly is a master. When their EA 1st ended my h felt such overwhelming guilt for having dragged her innocent self into the muck in that he made the first overt move in starting their EA. Then he felt even worse for having let her down when they got caught and were forced to stop.<P>However, as I reread and thought more about these manipulative techniques, I saw how much this personality applies to my h in our marital conflicts. I don't think he is that aggressive in his other relationships, but he certainly has used all those tactics against me in our relationship discussions during and after his affair. <P>I think the ops use most of these techniques in building up the other person during an affair. My h's ow used them so well that he really saw her for months only as a victim. She played him like a puppet on a string, but he never had a clue. I don't think that he wanted to see it. I also think that he was actually more serious about a permanent relationship with her than she with him. <BR>Nobody was more surprised than he when he finally began to reluctantly see the light about her. <P>He resisted seeing her manipulation and still doesn't choose to think about it because it makes him feel stupid. He is a person that protects his ego above all else. I don't know that he would have ever faced the truth about her had she not begun being really b*tchy in her treatment of him. She was thoroughly infuriated that he didn't fight for her. He, likewise expected more sacrifice from her when they were discovered and threatened. So much for their undying love. <P>Many of us have or had these techniques used against us by op and/or spouse during the affair. An affair brings out the worst of this manipulation. Specific itemized help in dealing with any or all of the manipulation methods would be really great.