Okay, I am at a place where I am ready to leave my marriage and all these "what ifs" (based on my own insecurities probably) are forming in my head. Can you help?<P>Here's the deal:<P>Separated in Sept because H and I were just not connecting. No real hostility or arguments, just a feeling of "this is not right." Felt numb. Just didn't want to do counseling or work on anything. Just needed a break.<P>Nov- found out he had a 6 month affair that ended in Sept. He said he didn't care what happened, we were going to work things out and no matter what, we'd spend the holidays together where we belonged (we didn't).<BR> Got some counseling and had an epiphany. He is responsible for what he did. it's his karma. My responsibility is realizing what i did to contribute, fix it and respond with unconditional love. <P>Dec- H reiterated that he was coming home and would be back after Christmas (went to vist his family). I was relieved to know the cause for our tension was the affair, forgave him, and wanted to welcome him home if he could change.<P>Jan- H moves out of his apartment and into a place with two people he just met and his ex-girlfriend. <P>Feb- March- back and forth commit, withdraw<P>April- found out he had ANOTHER affair which resulted in a child. Raged and cried for about a week. He said he couldn't come home before that because he couldn't do that without telling me about the child and he just wasn't ready. Mom said forgive him, go home and fix your family. She gave me the courage and desire to do that, and I tried. Looked for way to incorporate situation into our future together. <P>May- For the 1st time ever, I asked him to come home (before that, it was him saying he was coming back- me taking a wait and see if he changes attitude). Said I'd do anything to make it work, even have a child with him. He enthusiastically agreed. Found out his ex-girlfriend is not an ex-girlfriend but a current girlfriend and that he was seeing her TWO YEARS AGO for a whole Year! Raged. Confronted OW. Lots of crazy accusations of she said, she said. Withdrew from wreckage and said, "I don't want to play anymore." Formalized Plan B letter was given to him today. H is sniffing around again, but I am not backing down. Unless and until he leaves that house, he will have nothing to do with me.<P>I feel good about where I am today. I am at peace, but what worries me is that it all happened so fast. I have prided myself on being a self-assured person, a person who does not wait for life to happen, but acts. I know that I have never had any tolerance for infidelity. I know that I can't abide by lies. I dont' have a double standard, but live by the same rules I set for others. I also believe I have a strong devotion to family. <P>Why then have I let go so quickly? I see all of you who have been dealing with this for a LONG time, and you're still hanging in there. Some of you have factors of alcoholism, drug problems, or money problems which create even more stress, and you are still hanging in there. Is my devotion not really devotion? Is my love less than yours?<P>This man I am walking away from was the love of my life, my prince charming. I never thought I could ever live a fairy tale, but life with him was that way for so long. i used to sing all the time just thinking about him and rushed home to be with him. My future was never without a vision of him. And now it's just so totally gone.<P>I WANT to have that lifelong marriage and believe that it IS possible to live in love forever. I know it takes work and willingness to see your self to do this. I think I'm willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that, but I am not willing to degrade myself or set a weak example for my daughter to follow. I have given my H (and everyone in my life really) freedom to do as they will because I want all my relationships to be real and based on love and respect. I don't beg, whine, manipulate, or coerce affection. I am not willing to do that now. I want what is given freely and from the heart. Does that mean I am not trying enough?<P>I feel that if anyone walks away from their commitment without discovering what they did to create the chaos, they will simply repeat the chaos. My desire is to create a future for myself where I can avoid that. Have I done enough? Am I too stubborn and self-righteous? I ask from a sincere desire to self examine and be the best person I can be. <P>Divorce papers are due any day. I plan on returning them without delay.<P>Your advice is appreciated.

popeye...<BR> Sometimes the right thing to do is to realize that the marriage is over. <BR> Not all cases are alike. From this and reading your other posts, in your case, I think you are doing the right thing. Be glad that you do not have children with this man. Do get counseling for yourself after the divorce, so you can be sure you won't end up with someone like him again.<P>Good luck--<P>Kathi<BR> <BR>

Popeye,<P>You're clearly conflicted: on one hand, you say that you're more than comfortable with the way things have gone and that you're ready for divorce---but on the other hand, you have doubts that you've done enough.<P>Do a cost/benefit analysis of the situation. What does it cost you to delay the divorce, and attempt to work on the marriage? I'd suggest a professional (like Steve Harley), and I'd tell you to do it even if your husband won't.<P>It seems like there's a large "upside" for doing this, and not much in the way of risk.<P>I completely agree with you that if you haven't done enough to examine the issues that you contributed to the failure of the marriage, and worked through them, then you are bound to repeat it. If you really have done this to your satisfaction, and you have no love remaining for him---then by all means, divorce him. But it does seem to be pretty rapid, and that you're dealing on the emotional aspects of the "second" discovery (which is harder in some cases).

Popeye, you gave it a good eight months before you Plan B'd him. I think that was a good run - Spectacular, in fact. Only your heart can tell you if it's the right timing now. I don't think I can last eight months in my situation - at least it doesn't look like it right now. I'm looking at three max., because I too have always prided myself on taking care of myself (emotionally) and I am so vulnerable right now while he rides rough shod over our lives and I have no say in it. The lies are the hardest to take - It is the most disrespectful thing because they only do it to cover themselves and not face the consequences of their deeds. I too want to spend my golden years with someone who appreciates me and the love I have to offer, while he just wants to start a new relationship with OW and put me on the back burner, only to be dusted off if it doesn't work out with her! How dare he? So much for 20 years of friendship - Friends don't treat each other that way . . . I can't give you advise here, I'm such a mess myself and just trying to learn Plan A with Dr. Harley, but I do appreciate how hard you tried and I too am going to reach a point where I will have to make that same decision - And I hope I can do it as gracefully as you.<BR>Question: What if he said it was over and he wanted to work it out now (finally)? Would you take him back at this point, or are you beyond that emotion? I pray for the day that I feel numb, too, instead of like an open wound.<BR>Soonie

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sooney:<BR><B>Question: What if he said it was over and he wanted to work it out now (finally)? Would you take him back at this point, or are you beyond that emotion? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I want, "I am sorry. I hurt you. I betrayed you because of my own weaknesses. It was not your fault. I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. I accept you unconditionally. I will spend the rest of my life loving you and making this up to you. I can see now how alone you felt, how I tore you up inside. I was wrong. I will never do this again. I will never lie to you again. What can I do to prove my love and start all over with you? What can WE do so that we are always happy together and never left out of each others lives?"<P>I would pause for, "I am finished with the OW. I am open to exploring what caused this and seeing if we still have anything left to build on."<P>Reasonable? It's not going to happen. Not with this man.

<BR>popeye,<P>Divorce is always an option, but it may not be the best option. I agree with K on this, an upside/downside analysis suggests to me that you oughtta slow this divorce down. Is your H *really* in total agreement about the divorce? I know he hasn't done anything to stop it, but perhaps he feels like he deserves to be divorced, and has emotionally withdrawn from you because he feels that there is no longer any point in even trying. If this was the case, would you divorce him anyway?<P>I'll admit, the speed of this divorce gives me unease. I know some people simply cannot get past infidelity, and the presence of the OC in your case certainly complicates things. But my bias is to tell you to make your decision to divorce rationally, not emotionally. As far as degrading yourself if you would decide to remain married, the question isn't whether you're good enough, its who do you want to be?<P>Bystander

Popeye...<BR>Well, you've gotten opiniond on both sides. Mine is based on the fact that, from what I've seen and read, a man who cheats repeatedly like your H has is not a good long term prospect. I'd get out now, while you do not have children with him, and while you are in a relatively good mental state. To me there is a vast differnce between your situation and that where a man is a good, solid H and father for 15 years, hits a bad stretch personally and in his marriage, and lets himself stray.<P>Obviously, there are 2 sides to every argument, and you are the only one who knows truly what is in your heart.<P>Good luck.

Popeye,<BR>Not to burst anyones bubble here....but...I heard those words. I am sorry...what can I do to make this up to you...I hurt the only woman I have ever loved and will love....I will stand by you for the rest of my life...blah blah blah. When I heard those words...I melted....just where he wanted me to be. I let my defenses down....trust came back quickly...I saw and heard the remorse.<P>Again...I was just where he wanted me to be....I was mush in his hands....worked on being a better me....all the while...he worked on continuing to deceive.<P>He knew what kind of person I was....he knew I loved him unconditionally....and he took that and molded me to be guilt ridden....take all the blame....and all the while I thought he loved me....was sorry and would be by my side forever....heck he told me he would.<P>Woke up on Good Friday 1999, kissed me, told me he loved me....and was gone forever. Went to get Easter Candy...never came home.<P>I know....I am not a good example....just someone trying to show you that caution can not be thrown to the wind. <P>I want you to be able to trust again....feel the mighty power of unconditional love again....but you need to also feel the love for yourself.....keep your dignity....and look out for yourself.<P>Nancy<P>I'm sorry...I guess I have to tell you the bad side. Maybe you should just take my post with a grain of salt, because I am sure mine is more the exception than the rule.

<BR>popeye,<P>Why are you writing a Plan B letter, presumably in anticipation of a separation, if you're blasting ahead with a divorce? I don't follow this.<P>Bystander

Popeye,<P>To further comment on what Bystander said: Harley often recommends that you make the decision to divorce using the Policy of Joint Agreement. If you both can enthusaistically agree---then great.<P>The bottom line is that you were all for reconciliation less than a month ago. And now you're ready for divorce? My bottom line is that you're currently listening to your emotions---not your head. And emotional decisions often turn out to be ones that you regret.

Popeye:<P>I do not think your devotion is any less than anyone else's here. I think you have definitely hung in for a long time and I think you are right to Plan B. But as I understand it, Plan B and divorce are not synonymous. Could you not just Plan B for a little while longer and hold onto those divorce papers?<P>I must admit your H sounds a lot like mine. I wonder sometime if mine realizes he is not telling the truth. Take it from someone who knows, it is no fun having a man who has lies coming from his mouth like water flowing from a pitcher for the father of your child. You should seriously consider that before getting back together with him, and even more so before seriously considering having a child with him.<P>He has serious issues to work out before you two can be an "us" again. Only you can decide how long you are willing to wait for the light to dawn on him.<P>Good luck and all the best. --HBC

I too feel that it is too early for this decision. But you must also look long and hard to see if this is the person you can spend the rest of your life with. <BR>If you had been married several years, with kids, and up to that point things were good, then he goes off the deep end, then I would most definately look to restore the marriage. But if this has been going on for a long time, if he is having kids with others, then I would strongly consider divorce. Once children enter the picture, it get VERY complicated!! <BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan