Hi all!<BR>According to my TV guide Dr. Harley is the guest on today's Leeza Show about forgiveness.

Thanks Wassi!<BR>I'm watching it right now!

Thanks WS - <P>I am taping it!!! <P>How are you woman?<P>I know, I know.....I still owe you E...<P>So, I am slow.....what else is new!!!<P>Hey, did you see my rant? I have some more income coming in starting this week!!!! Isn't that great!!!!<P>Think of you often and hope that with the long weekend I can get to the Emails.....You think you have waited long? FHL and SHA are probably comp;etely disgusted with me.......<P>Love Ya and again, Thanks for the head's up!!!<P>Big Hugs,<P>Sheba

NoTrust<BR>It's not on till later here so let me know what you think.<P>Sheba<BR>I have been thinking of you. Read your rant. Meant to e-mail you but it has been crazy here. <BR>FIL had a bad fall. Broke his hip. He has emphysema (sp) so anesthetic and surgery were touch and go. H flew out last night. First chance I've had to sit is this morning.<P>I've been pretty irritable too so it's better if I don't post here when I am that way. You understand

Wassi,<P>Dr. H wasn't on that long, but I just LOVED what he said. He said, "When recovering from an affair, forgiveness comes last. It comes AFTER a betrayed spouse is justly compensated."<P>The "justly compensated" are the words that really struck me. Maybe that's why I haven't been able to fully forgive?? He also said, as we already know, that it takes about 2 years to recover but the forgiveness does indeed come LAST.<P>With my H having contact with OW at end of November, that still feels recent to me. It didn't bring me all the way back to square one, but it did make our recovery go a few steps backward. I DO NOT feel that I have yet been "justly compensated" yet. When I feel that I have been, then, maybe, I will be able to forgive.

NoTrust<BR>Thanks for sharing! <BR>I don't get the show here for another couple of hours. I think I will tape it for my H. He really wants to help but doesn't know how. Maybe if he watches this on his own it will help him.<BR>I'm not sure about the "justly compensated" part either. Maybe we need to sit down andtake a look at what we need to achieve that. It's an individual thing I think.<P>I know that the contact after the fact sets recovery back. Heck I still have trouble saying the word "recovery".<P>This morning I was going through receipts and there was a fuel bill from the town where bimbo works. I know H was at a job in Bimboland but it still gave me chills to see it. <P>Hang in there!

Harley talks in this Q&A about <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>just compensation for an affair</A>. It's not a prerequisite for forgiveness (which is an individual thing), but it definitely "greases the skids", so to speak.

Thanks K!<BR>I have a few of Dr. H's books and have read them and also his concepts, but periodically, I DO need a review. Thanks for adding that "link" to your post!

Yes K thanks! <BR>I will reread that one.<P>I have a feeling that my H will get more out of a few minutes of TV than he will the books. <P>I think that for me his willingness to compensate is much more important than the actual compensation.

Wassi:<P>EXACTLY! It's the attitude that says "I have your best interests at heart".

Well I watched and it was only a few minutes. Too bad. There were some very realistic things being addressed.<P>Dr. Harley also mentioned remorse. Which brings up a question.<P>K if your still here I'd like your thoughts on this.<P>My H is remorseful, I know that. <BR>My problem is that he says he is "sorry for hurting me."<BR>I need to hear "I'm sorry for the things I did."<BR>How do I approach this and is the difference only in my mind? I have gently explained this to him. Not in detail. I don't want to scare him away from talking - make him afraid to say the wrong thing.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited May 26, 2000).]

wassi:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My H is remorseful, I know that. <BR>My problem is that he says he is "sorry for hurting me."<BR>I need to hear "I'm sorry for the things I did."<BR>How do I approach this and is the difference only in my mind? I have gently explained this to him. Not in detail. I don't want to scare him away from talking - make him afraid to say the wrong thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Item 1. Your husband is remorseful, and you know it. Everything's good here.<P>Item 2. He's sorry for hurting you. Good---that's really important, especially if he's willing to learn how "not to hurt you". As in building your marriage to the point where you're both "romantically" in love with each other.<P>Item 3. You need to hear "I'm sorry for the THING I did". Hmmm, is this like the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003000.html" TARGET=_blank>apology letter</A>?<P>I'd ask about #3. Is it truly a NEED for your husband to apologize for the THINGS. Or is it more of a NEED for your husband to recognize the THINGS he did wrong, and take the appropriate steps to modify his behavior and ensure that these THINGS never happen again in your marriage???<P>I'm not sure that I'm clear on your "need" here---but if it's the latter, I'd tell you to give it time (and counseling), and watch for RESULTS, not necessarily words.<P>The "letter of apology" from Crushed's husband was wonderful---and if he follows through with action to back it up, they'll be happy indeed. If he doesn't follow up that letter with concrete actions, then the letter was pointless. A bit of fluff.<P>I'm always more concerned with actions, rather than words. It sounds like you're getting the right actions from your husband. Forgiveness will follow, as you start to see the good that's come from this horrible episode.<P>Does this make sense???

K<BR>my computer is having a bad day! I have already lost two responses to you. I'm going to try to make this on brief and hope it works.<P>First of all you always make sense - that's why I aked you. <P>Yes we are both working hard to modify our behavior. I'd give it an 7 out of 10 <P>Yes I think the apology letter would be a good thing. I haven't approached him on it because he never gave me the "no contact" letter he promised me in August '99. <P>Time is a 4-letter word but I know you're right there as well.<P>My need stems from something he said early on. He said "The one thing I regret is losing my 'friendship' with her by sleeping with her." That is the ONLY specific regret he has verbalized. Since then it has been simply "I'm sorry for hurting you."<P>Now I know he doesn't remember saying that, I know where his brain was....but it HURT.<P>The "friendship" is a totally separate area. It began in '92 and I felt betrayed from day one. He knows this. I feel as though he is very remorseful for the PA ('98/99). I guess my need is more of a need to address the specific things that have been swept under the rug. I need to find hear that he realizes the 'friendship' was betrayal. <BR>I've been burned far more times by the 'friendship' than I was by the PA.<BR> <BR>Am I making sense? I'm not sure. My mind has gone astray since my first reply. <P>Counceling would be great but remember my councelor from Pluto? If I could afford Steve I'd be on the phone with him 3 times a week. So I am muddling through the best that I can with the help of great people like you. <BR>Thanks again!<P>wassi

Hi wassy,<BR>Hi all<P>Been away for a while,just stoped to say Hi because I still have work to do.<P>Wassy I know what you mean when you talk about the remorse thing. But K is right.<P>FOr along time I wasa waiting to hear those exact words "I'm sorry for the things I did". I was concentrating so much in hearing the words that I almost missed all the actions that told me louder than any word that he really was sorry, not only for the hurt, not only for the things we thought we lost, but for getting involved into the whole thing , for what he had done.<P>Yes, maybe a letter will help, but more than that seing him everyday, strenghtening this marriage with you, showing he cares . making an effort to erase all the bad stuff and replace it with better things... that's what will help better as time passes.<P>I am a "word" person, so many times I look for words and fail to see the actions, but I have been paying more attention. His actions tell me the same things I want to hear, but he can't tell ( rememeber he does have trouble putting his feeling into words ).<P>Anyway, big hug to all<BR>Wassy haven't been to good in the e-mail department either lately. As soon as school is over, I'll be back <P>Kat

Dearest Kat <BR>I know you're both right.<BR>(you said that four letter word too )<BR>My impatience shows. <BR>I'd like something concrete to reassure me sometimes.<BR>I guess I just wish he could be specific about things with me like those in reference to her. I want it all. Selfish selfish me. <P>I have been very remiss with my email. When I'm not at a soccer field I'm exhausted. I will write and tell you some of the wonderful things that H has done. Promise!<BR>

Wassi,<BR>Are YOU inpatient? No!!! Never!!!<BR>Nice to see you.<BR>Sorry I missed the show. I am remedial with tv...never even turn it on, so had no idea how to work the satellite thingy to find out what time. You can tell me about it. I have read harley's article here and he addresses it in the books.<BR>Hmmm, we do wait to hear those magic words. In my case they were said....but after all the lies, I did not believe them! Even with his actions I have a very hard time believing...sometimes I wonder if I am just waiting for him to have the next affair. <BR>I am not sure that forgiveness can truly happen until trust is re-established.<BR>Adios, cl<BR>

cl<BR>You were here and I missed you?<BR>Trust? What is that? I think the trust issue is one I will not even think about for some time. Safe yes. Trust No.<P>The words. I figured out why the words are important. If H can't say anything more than "sorry I hurt you" then I don't think he really is sorry for the things he did. Just that they hurt me. Copout. Justification. We're still there.<P>No matter how wonderful his actions are now, he is not accepting responsibility for his actions then. If he is not sorry for what he did, doesn't think it was wrong...then the danger has not left.<P>A lot of work to do!

hi wassi,<BR>Trust.....that thing we never seem to catch? I would like that virus!!!<BR>he words are there, some actions are there, but maybe the bottom line is that time will bring it back?<BR>Oh, I sit here and say that I gave him the trust back. And I did. But there is this little voice in my head, this little thread of doubt that crops up every now and then!<BR>Ya know what I mean?! <BR>

Trust? As time goes on...this issue becomes more complex.<P>Do I think H will ever do this again? No, on the days I'm rational I don't think he will. On those down days that hit every now and again I wonder.<P>However, I do not trust anybody completely anymore. Promises don't hold a lot of weight and I have found myself thinking vows are a cruel joke to lull people into false security. So I guess I do have some trust issues going on. How can't we? No one is perfect...so how can we really trust anybody or anything completely forever?<P>I am comfortable with renewing my trust one day at a time, and feeling secure in the present without obsessing about the future. I suppose that is progress.<P>cl...so glad to see you here. <BR>WS...you are sounding stronger

A young couple sat behind my H and I at the ball game last night talking really loud. They are planning to move in together and then get married in the near future. She didn't want an engagement ring,,,,,said she'd rather buy season box seats at the game instead. Then they talked about her daughter from her first marriage...(he has never been married) he said...."I hope you don't want a quick fix for a Father for your daughter!" She said, "no....her Father loves her......but she really likes you!" He said..."what if this doesn't work and you have an affair?" She said, "no, I really miss you when you aren't with me, I don't know why we get along so well.....do you?" he said...."no, I just don't know." She said.."if we get married and it doesn't work.....my daughter will be Ok, oh she will miss you, but she will do OK." <P>?????????? Isn't this sad? I just wanted to turn around and tell them a few things! Instead......I got into a down mood. I wanted to tell them that OUR 31st Anniversary was tomorrow and "let me tell you what I have gone through to get there????"...... Oh well.....they would have said..........."That's nice!"<P>Just thought I'd share this and get it off my small chest.......LOL LOL<P>I feel sorry for them.......but, I'm Happy!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Almost Happy (edited June 07, 2000).]