NoMas,<P>It is exactly because you are not thinking right by your own admission that I was so blunt. <P>You claim you want to do the right thing. But you continue to correspond with OW and not communicate with W. If you have any hope of fixing this, it will come through your W. <P>If this was your first involvement or infacuation with a OW, that would be one thing. However, last year it was a woman at work that you were posting about. You could not get her out of your mind. <P>Did you talk with W, not much instead you began to talk with another woman here. What happened? You had and EA? with her. Have you worked on you marriage? No!<P>You tried to talk with W and you told W about the affair and then nothing else. It is very clear you are a needy man, right now. The chances of your really recovering seem small to me unless there is another woman in your life.<P>I respectively submit to you that the other woman in your life should be your W. <P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Sometimes, the healing process is not a pretty one. Much "puss" and "blood" ooze out, which is all part of the<BR>cleansing process. I apologize if my "oozing mess" is turning stomachs out there. I kind of see this forum as a "hospital" or maybe and ER. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree it is not a pretty sight but sparing your W the healing process is not going to get this done. You do her a great disservice by not focusing on her and what you are doing to her. If you began a dialogue with her, I am sure it would be very painful, but just maybe it would help to break the hold the OW has on you. Just maybe you could save your marriage.<P>Because even if you rid yourself of this OW, your track record shows that you haven't worked on your marriage. You just found another one.<P>Now I know this sounds harsh to you. It is!!! I know you stated that you weren't offended by my comments, but your response says otherwise. I know you have been this route before and so do you. You just went to another woman. <P>If you marriage is so bad and you won't involve your W in fixing it, then even if you endure the "pain" of withdrawl and succeed it will have been for naught. NoMas, if I recall your posts from last year correctly, you are fairly closely connected to the church, use the strength there and begin to talk with your W. It is the only way out for you and for her.<P>I have no idea if your marriage can be saved or if you can be saved, but I know who knows and so do you. Pray. I also know the only people that can work on your marriage; you and your W. It is clear that you both need to be involved.<P>I know you have thought about this, but something is not getting through. I also know that you are accustomed to people coming here and telling you nicely what they think. <P>I decided that you need to hear it straight and hard. Because Mr. you are lying to yourself, you think withdrawing from OW will save your marriage, when in reality trying to save you marriage will help you withdraw from OW. <P>Something is dreadfully wrong with your marriage that you would fixate on one woman, and then fixate on the woman who tried to help you get rid of the first woman. It seems clear that your method of fixing things is not working. That is why I am on you about focussing on someone else besides yourself. Focus on your W, talk with her, try to really understand her, try and do for her what she apparently wouldn't do for you, get to know her.<P>No one said this was easy or pretty but it seems to me you are the one running from "blood and puss".<P>You won't hear from me again, unless it is to congratulate you when you save your marriage. I have said all I can say to you. I have said it plain, simple and honest and your response indicates to me you know that.<P>God Bless You and Your Family, NoMas,<P>JL

wings, thank you for your caring words of advise... I find it helps me so much to come here to this forum...<P>I have been turning to so many others since I have been at MB since November... sadly, there are so many who can relate to the situation... but there is so much help, so much concern, such good advice and so much I have learned here... even the criticism opens my eyes...<P>I have to admit... the biggest part of not telling my H is fear.. I am full of fear... I fear that he will not try to understand, I fear that he will not be forgiving, I fear that I will hurt him more than he has ever hurt before, I fear our family will be destroyed, I fear the pain I will place into my childrens hearts and how they may not understand for years, being that they are so young still...<P>I fear, that I will not have the strength to go on with my life after all of these things take place... I fear that I am not worthy of forgiveness... and that I am not worthy of even asking God for help... <P>schizzo, you are truly a remarkable person. I understand what you are saying about it perhaps seeming less real when it was over... I know that you hurt badly... and I believe that you can be an inspiration to all who have to go through what you did and what you still are..<P>I guess, those were the only options I saw... I just know my H so well that I can probably predict word for word, and every reaction to my actions that will take place when he finds out. I fear for everyone involved if this comes to light... <P>My H is very controlling, very proud and physically strong... along with that, he is also very sensitive... hard to imagine, but he is. He reacts before thinking and I would have to have him bound and chained before ever daring to say a word about my betrayal... and then keep him that way for months... I am ashamed and I am guilty and I am in pain over it...<P>I cannot believe that I have jeoprodized everything that I care for.. I cannot believe that I allowed myself to do what I have done.. to love another man... and not be able to find a way to stop loving him... I cannot understand how I got to this place...<P>It is a very difficult place to be... But I am trying... In fact, I had a conversation with a friend this afternoon that has opened my eyes a bit more... and I know that I have to be the one to work harder because I am going to be responsible for the outcome, no matter what happens... <P>Ugh... I just needed to vent.. sorry...<P>

I was just thinking that the reason we might be hesitant to share fully with our spouses is the same reason for hesitating to post on this board (it took me 4 months to get up the courage to begin posting, knowing I would be opening myself up to all kinds of opinions). That reason is: unless you have already gotten it together and taken the right steps, it simply is not a very safe place.

One of the previous posters said something about thinking about someone besides yourself. Try thinking of your spouse and have the decency to let them go! Like you they deserve the chance to find their true love and have a fulfilling relationship. Instead you come and complain about how your spouse does not live up to your expectations. It's all about you, your needs your feelings.<P>You need not tell them about the affair just explain that you don't love them the way they deserve to be loved and you would prefer to divorce rather than live in a loveless marriage. The best thing you can do for your children is to have a loving marriage. You do your children no favor by participating in sham of a marriage. <P> <p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited June 03, 2000).]

I'm not going to tell any of you that are struggling with "to tell or not to tell". I do think we learn from each other, so I will just tell you my experience. I am the betrayed. I learned from my husband that he was frustrated and felt like he wasn't being loved and heard. I pretty much blew it off because I was in my own world of hurt. I thought he was just exaggerating about the state of things between us. When he disclosed a couple of months later that he had feelings for OW I was so horrified and shocked that it literally rocked my world. I did a complete turnaround to save our marriage. I listened, spent time with him, cradled his head when he needed to talk about his feelings about things and her. I went exercising with him almost every night and lost almost 20 pounds. I came home from work earlier and livened up our sex life beyond anything it had been in 23 years. We were having the best time together, ever. Unfortunately, it was not enough to prevent him from acting on his feelings with her. He was far too gone for that. When he revealed the true extent, last June 2 (yes, a painful anniversary yesterday), I was in EXTREME pain. I did blow up and I did leave him. But that wasn't the end. He convinced me that he wanted our marriage to work. So after two weeks we got back together. We even moved 7 hours away from OW. He apparently couldn't handle withdrawal either. Unbeknownst to me, he continued affair with e-mails, phone calls, and visits. I found out in March. He did not reveal it to me this time. I found out because he had gotten sloppy. I exploded again, but did not leave him. I was going to file for divorce, and we were going to be finished. He wound up in the hospital for severe depression and severe blood pressure problems. Again I let him convince me to stay. You see, I know he loves me and I do love him. Other people might think I'm crazy, but I realize that the only two people who understand fully what is going on in the marriage are the two in it. And they don't really fully understand, either. If he hadn't revealed his feelings in the first place, we couldn't have worked together to make this marriage better. If he hadn't wanted it or pursued it, this marriage wouldn't be here. I HAD TO KNOW THE FULL EXTENT OF HIS PAIN AND FEELINGS BEFORE I TOOK HIM SERIOUSLY ENOUGH TO TURN MY ACTIONS AROUND. <BR>We have been in a true recovery for two months and the first anniversary of dday was yesterday. We had a good time by going away for the night and making it a mini-vacation.<BR>For what it's worth.................

Thanks, Hopeful Now, for your story. I am a little confused about when you thought you heard the "whole story" to turn your actions around. You say when your husband disclosed feelings for OW, you did a complete turn around, began exercising, etc. It sounds like you were pretty motivated at that point, but your husband was pretty hooked on the other woman. Then you say he "revealed the true extent" a year ago , you moved away, etc. But your husband still continued contact. Finally you discovered his continued contact yourself and now you are in true recovery (I'm glad for you!). What confuses me is that your husband did seen to reveal a lot to you and you did turn around, but he continued with contact for another 9 months. So, in what way, did his full revelation of his feelings for OW and you finally taking him seriously, help to break off contact? It seems he kept struggling with it anyway. I can see that you became very serious and started making a lot of changes in your life. Your husband, too, somehow deep down, still wanted your marriage to work. But, the final break of contact didn't come right away. It almost seems like it had to run its course. <P>I have found there is an internal struggle that goes on within oneself. It is really about releasing that other person. We all have our own journeys and stories. I think most betrayers who are here do believe they should keep the marriage. That doesn't mean there aren't other feelings inside, too. Sometimes betrayers share those feelings, but it is hard for hurting people to hear them. Most likely we are all experiencing a big range of feelings, some of which seem to contradict. Even many betrayed, once they find out, experience feelings of wanting to leave and not keep the marriage (temporarily). We are all hurting!<P>

<BR> NoMAS, withdrawal pain can only occur when you actually break off all contact. I hear you when you say we broke it off many times<BR> ( Oh the PAIN ) it hurts so bad;then; boom you make contact or give in to their new contact.<BR> Well that is an effort but it is not real withdrawal. Any contact keeps the fantasy alive. Any contact allowes you to keep lying to yourself. Any contact is not fair to the OW; in fact it is cruel; it keeps the fantsay alive for her. Any contact is not fair to your wife; you are taking time and thoughts away from your wife. Any contact is not fair to you; you can not build when you keep knocking the marriage down. Your post are so well presented that I feel awkward trying to<BR>responed, but bottom line I see your pain.<BR> YOU MUST FIND THE STRENGTH TO BREAK OFF ALL<BR> CONTACT !!!!!! Having no contact will give you and wife a chance to build marriage. Tell her or not; I am not sure; but I am sure that you must not contact the OW.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:<BR><B>Realize that some people tend to retreat further when they hear things that make their world uncomfortable. ...<P>When I had a very distressful day several weeks ago, and sobbed and sobbed for hours, my husband didn't ask a single question. His way to handle it is to leave me alone and hope the next day I will reappear with a happy face. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SLW<BR>Sorry to burst in on this thread, but I'm fairly new around here. I've read lots of descriptions of H's in these forums, but YOURS is the first description of a H that describes my H exactly! Other threads like "chatting with a rock" have H's similar to mine but not quite. I feel like a lightweight around here. I'm not wayward (thought about it though). He's not either. On a superficial level we get along great. But at the same time, my H behaves like yours -- emotionally absent. It makes me feel so lonely, sad, and unloved that I can't see a future in our marriage if it doesn't change. <P>SLW, do you think you can be happy with your H if he refuses to change his "residence in emotional outer space?" Won't his behavior leave you vulnerable to another affair? <P>I've read only a couple of your posts, and I know I should take time to read your profile etc. But it's late and I have a heck of a time finding the same thread the next day. If you've already addressed these questions, throw me a link. I'm interested in what you have to say.<BR>

JL...<P>You have me curious. I am not sure about your profile, and what your "story" is or past situations that brings you to these boards. I saw in one post where you said you had never had an affair, and I am uncertain as to if you have ever been "betrayed" by a spouse. I did notice that you have over a thousand posts here, which indicates you spend an awful lot of time here. <BR>What does bring you here? I can't say that I really disagree with "what" you have to share; perhaps in is in the manner of which you express yourself.<P>I heard Jerry Falwell say one time: "I like what Rush Limbaugh has to say, I just don't always like the way he says it!"<P>Where might I read your profile or past history that I might better understand where you are "coming from". I don't say this to be contenscious. I just would like to familiarize myself with your own scars that qualify you to speak with so much confidence and boldness into the lives like mine who are still bleeding.<P>I will be the first one to tell you that I have made some bad choices. I have discovered some major flaws in my character and personality that I believe led me down this slippery slope.<P> I have cut off all contact with the "OW". It is a very difficult and slippery ditch to crawl out of as I painfully try to do daily.<P>I have to admit though, I am somewhat amazed that anyone who has hung around here long enough to make over a thousand posts, and who claims to have never "had an affair", and has a name that proclaims to be "just learning", that you speak with so much boldness as if you know what is really going on in the heart of people like myself.<P>Yes, I hear truth in your messages. But truth can be a dangerous tool if not handled properly . The apostle Peter, took a sword <which represents truth> and sliced the ear off of soldier who came to seize Jesus in the Garden. The way we administer truth can actually prevent people from hearing....more truth. <P>I'm not here looking for sugar-coated answers. Yes, I have had some nice comments from others, who I believe my words have struck a chord in them, as we can relate to some very familiar struggles. <P>And yes, I have been involved with Christian ministry for a number of years. My own struggles add to the shame and humiliation of my own personal plight. But one thing I have learned through all of this, is that I look at "sinners" through a whole new set of eyes now. I never saw myself as some "self-righteous saint" to begin with. But I was quite unfamiliar with fallen people who were in the place I now find myself in. I pray that you never have to descend this low yourself, to learn what I have learned.<P><BR>If you will notice, on this particular thread, I was not asking for advice or counsel, rather responding to a question someone else asked of me. I also use these boards to "vent" when I am hurting, as I have been encouraged to do, even by others who have been betrayed themselves.<P>I am not so quick to "give advice", especially when not asked. The scriptures admonish us to be quick to listen and slow to speak. I find that I am trying to practice that more as I grow older.<P>After posting over a thousand times here, maybe you need to step back, and really listen to what people are saying here, instead of “shooting so quick from the hip”.<P>You also mentioned that I was “accustomed to people telling me nicely what they think”. I am curious, do you have a problem with that? And do you think, in your opinion, that my post are harmful or hurtful to anyone else that might be reading them? My motive here is not trying to draw sympathy for the “betrayers”, rather, just share some of the personal turmoil and struggles that we face ourselves.<P>Again, I am not disagreeing with all that you shared...I just was troubled by the spirit in which you shared it...especially since it was unsolicited.<P>Blessings to you and your family.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited June 04, 2000).]

NoMas....<BR>I will tell you your truth and honesty have both encouraged and strengthened my own plight. I feel badly that I started this whole thing and you have taken the brunt of the assaults because of my question. I apologize for setting you out on the front lines. <P>However, to all of us out there, yes, each one struggling in our private pain, we need to support one another as well as speak the truth, but speak it in love, not dissention. <P>I applaud your transparency, NoMas, and you have helped me by being open about your personal struggles. I'm struggling daily with the "no-contact" and know how incredibly difficult it is. We need to know others are making it through this and stand by to encourage those in the throes of this pain.<P>I have found unbelieveable kindred spirits here in this forum, especially from NoMas, SiftedLikeWheat and others who are bold enough to admit mistakes and expose the truth knowing full well we leave ourselves wide open for stone throwing. <P>So let's remember why we come to this forum: We come for support, love, freedom to express pain, to encourage as well as be encouraged, and not to tear down and destroy. We've all done enough of that on our own. <BR>I pray for healing in all of our hearts, and thank those people have shared their truths. <BR> <P>

Sifted,<BR> Yes, I did make lots of changes. Of course I can't tell the whole story in a single paragraph, so here goes more. My husband was in a deep depression when the affair started. The consequences followed him. While he was in the throes of the affair, we were reconnecting and having the reawakening of ourselves. It is so crazy, I can't believe my history myself. Anyway, after we moved and he made the first split, he obviously had a hard time with withdrawal and GUILT plagued him about leaving her in a lurch. I think that and the fact that maybe it did have to run its course made it continue. This March doctors discovered a mass in my uterus the size of a grapefruit. I had to have a complete hysterectomy immediately. While tests and the doctors thought it probably wasn't cancer, we didn't know for sure. This was very hard on both of us. In fact, I discovered his e-mailings 4 days after I got out of the hospital. I told him we would get a divorce as soon as I was on my feet again. I needed his help in my recovery from the operation. I also didn't want to tell my college girls about the divorce and mess up their finals. I thought if we waited six weeks they would be finished with school and I would be able to take care of myself. So we had a forced living together arrangement and would pretend all was well for now. Two days after the discovery, my h fell to pieces. My mom and I had to drive him to the emergency room and admit him for being suicidal. He was in the hospital for 3 days. When he got out, I witnessed his pain, deep, deep cries and mourning, and his reconciling with God. (He was a firm Christian and a deacon in our church before.) For two weeks we existed with him taking care of me and me praying for him. He had to come to the realization that it was up to him and him alone to seek help and want to break it off. He realized that it would not work with her even if we broke up. My forcing him did not work the first time. We are in joint counseling and he is in individual counseling now. We pray together almost daily. Our daughters never had to know how perilously close we were to the end. He also knows that this is actually his fourth time up to bat and this is the last chance I can give him. I tell you all this because you never know how strong your spouse is until you give them the chance to show it. Way back last year I had told him I could never stand infidelity and that if he ever acted on his feelings we were through. Well, I've had to move my line back in the sand twice, so I know he might have trouble believing anything I say about that now. But somehow I believe him this time and I hope he believes me. I hope this helps some of you who are undecided about what and when to tell. It's their lives too and I think it's only fair they know what is going on in their marriage.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, but thought I would. <P>Wings, I'm also going through what you're going through with no contact. I've had no contact for 2 mos. now. Wait, OM called me the day before my birthday (a month ago) to wish me happy birthday. How nice of him, huh? I just told him thank you, but I really can't talk to you. I was doing really well not thinking about him or thinking about contacting him. But, the past week or two he's been on my mind, and I've really been missing him. We were so close, and for along time he was my best friend. Now, I have a new best friend, my H. Our marriage has come unbelievable lengths through all this. But, that still doesn't change the feelings I once had and still have to fight sometimes. <P>I managed to get through my "thinking about OM time" w/out contacting him (which I'm rather proud of!). For some reason, I feel much better this weekend, I don't know what it is. So, hopefully I'm at peace for a long while. I don't know why I go in spurts of wanting XOM and not. All I can figure is that it's the withdrawl. Because you're right, it's like someone has died. But, worse, because that person is still right here. Not to mention the XOM is biological father of my youngest child. YIKES! <P>So, I just wanted you to know I know what you're going through, honestly. I'm still there some days and it really helps to be on this forum. Like you said, it makes you stronger to have allies out here. Please be my ally, as I will try to help you, too. As I told NoMas in another post, keep your chin up!! <P><p>[This message has been edited by momma (edited June 04, 2000).]

To lonesome heart:<P>I saw your post addressed to me. You ask: "could I be happy if my husband stayed in his emotional outerspace". No, I wouldn't be happy, when I think of who I am, my personality and my needs (my number one need is Honesty and Openness). But we are learning (painfully) together and I am realizing a few things: there are reasons for his emotional retreats. Some of those reasons are independent of me. They have been there since before I knew him and he is just starting to even be willing to look at that part of himself. Then, the differences in our personality types cause him to feel inferior and inadequate around me, which he handles by retreating. I tend to be much more direct and confrontive. <P><BR>I have been married for 17 1/2 years and I don't feel we have really understood or accepted each other very well. For me that has created a lot of lonely times. BUT (and there is always a BUT with GOD), there is always hope, because there is a GOD who does not disappoint. We attended Retrouvaille a few weeks ago and that is helping us both understand each other. I am realizing that I will need to accept some things about my husband because that is the way he is. On the other hand, my husband will have to stretch beyond his comfort zone to rise up and meet some of my needs. For this year my verse is: "Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly, beyond all you can ever ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work in us, to Him be the glory..." <P>My husband is starting to change and (for the first time ever) come just a little out of his retreated state. So that does bring hope, but I know he will always be gentle and sensitive, so I will have to behave in ways that make it safe for him to come out. <P>I'm not sure I really answered your original question. You asked if he never changed... I am not sure how I would cope with it. It is very lonely that way. I do know an affair is not an answer and even though it seems to offer relief from a despairing situation, it really doesn't. It only gives the illusion of that. Hope I've learned that for good!! Try to write more later, if I can.<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 04, 2000).]

Hi Momma:<BR>I can't tell you how much comfort your words just gave me. Thank you so much for that! How long were you and OM together? Did you end it or did he? <P>I'm so glad to know that you are falling in love with your H again. That's very encouraging. <P>Thank you for sharing that....I gratefully accept your invitation to stick by as an ally, and I hope to one day help someone make it down this painful path. <P>Lord Bless you and your marriage!

Wings...<P>You sound as if your struggle is very real. How is it going with you? Not sure I am all that familiar with your story...is your spouse aware of what it is you are struggling with?<BR>

Lighthouse...<BR>Yes, my husband is aware. We are struggling through this together. Thanks for asking. Fortunately for me, I got out before it got away from me. I ended it before it was out of control. This was more of an emotional affair, which is just as devasting. But the pain is still very real. Have since learned, OP has done this with many others before. <P>This has been the most horrifying experience of my life. A wake up call to sound all alarms, to be sure. I can only pray that God somehow uses this ugly mess to strengthen our marriage. <P>

Hi, Wings!<BR>Well, just as I was bragging yesterday about how great I'm feeling, then today brings challenges. My husband and I were LBing each other all over the place today! Not bad, just nit picking! Just a stressful day, I guess. I've been feeling b****y today, who knows! I'm so tired of being moody! I don't know why I flip flop so much! Thanks for your words of encouragement. I do love my H very much, and I'm very lucky to have him. <P>The OM and I were together just a few months before I got pregnant. Then I ended the affair after telling my H and had no contact w/OM the whole pregnancy. I still thought about OM, but never acted on it. However, after I had my baby, I found it VERY difficult to get OM out of my head. (My little one looks just like OM). Then, I made contact and affair was on/off again for months. Now, my child is 10 mos., and I've not had contact w/OM for 2 mos. I'm the one who ended it. It's like he's still out there waiting for me to come to him (he's not married). He still calls every now and then, and that's hard (but it's been a month now since he's called). It is very difficult sometimes not to want to contact him or to give in when he does call. I'm trying very hard not to give in to stupidity, to keep myself from talking to him. I constantly remind myself what I have to lose, and that's what keeps me going. But some days, I can sit there right on that edge, just wanting to stupidly cross over. Stupid, isn't it? I hope it's just typical in this kind of situation, and I hope it something I'll eventually get past! <P>How long has your separation from OM been? How long were you together? Are you doing okay now, or need constant encouragement, as I do? I'm sorry if this post brings you down. I'm really not trying to do that! I'm just letting you know you're not alone, and I'm learning I'm not either! Thank you so much! <P><p>[This message has been edited by momma (edited June 05, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wings:<BR>I can only pray that God somehow uses this ugly mess to strengthen our marriage. <P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sure it can be done, wings! The Lord can take HUGE messes we've made and turn them into something wonderful! I know one blessing I have that I would have never had if it weren't for my affair! (My precious little one). Good can eventually come, if we allow God to do the fixing. <P>

Well, Wings,<BR>Let me ask you this then. After discovering that the "OP" had a track record of this, I am assuming it kind of knocked the "shine" off of him. Did that help you lose interest in him or do you still feel drawn to him inspite of learning of this?<P>Do you think all other "OP'S" are all a bunch of "jerks" or can there be decent people out there, even desirable people, that get involved with these kind of relationships?<BR>Just wondering...<p>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited June 05, 2000).]

No Mas:<P>I am the WS. I went through the on-again-off-again rollercoaster. Who am I kidding? I'm still on it. I don't know whether you should tell your wife now, later, if ever. I leave that decision to you. I will tell you, though, that you need to cut off ALL contact with your OP. You cannot be fully committed to your marriage with someone in the wings. It hurts, it is lonely, it is overwhelming. You don't need to do it alone but you've got to do it. Use the MB Forum. Talk to a friend. Do anything but.... Good luck!